Problem Hunter in Quality Deer Managment
 

I hunt at a small hunting camp where only 4 people (myself, my father, brother and cousin) hunt each year. We "own" about 250 acres so there is plenty of land for us to practice QDM and we have even spoken with the landowners around us too and they have agreed to not harvesting deer unless they are atleast 8 pointers and over 3.5 years old to the best of their knowledge, so we feel we have a good thing going here.

Here in lies the proble, I put "own" in quotations because the land is actually owned by my grandmother. Myself, Dad and brother live on the land, maintain our 3 food plots, keep the field brush hogged and take care of all the land. Well, this is the first year we have been really really serious about our QDM and not harvesting any smaller deer. We sent out a newsletter to all of our family explaining what we were doing and wanted to accomplish. My grandmother took great offense to this saying that on her command our cousin would kill any deer that he saw be it a four pointer, spike or whatever. She beleives that the sport is in killing the animal regardless of size.

I was just wondering what you all though as to how to handle a situation like this. My brother, father and I have put in hours of work maintaining our land and impriving our deer herd and its just hard to swallow someone wanting to kill something so badly that they can not adhere to guidlines (guidlines which I believe to be pretty lenient anyways). My cousin is 21 years old, if he were 10 it may be different because then you want to turn a person on to hunting. For me, however, if someone is kill happy that they do not care what they shoot, they do not deserve to be in the woods and give good hunters a bad name. Theres so much more to hunting than the kill, its about camaraderie and enjoying God's creation.

I just thought I'd post on here to see what you all recommened and if you've ever had to deal with a situation like this. Please respond!

RE: Problem Hunter in Quality Deer Managment
 

In every group there is 1 that will shoot anything.Since it is your grandmothers property there is not much you can do. My propety there is enough 1.5 year old bucks that if 1 gets shot it is no big deal. He will change his mind in a couple of years when the rest of you start shooting the good bucks. It is not the end of the world if 1 person don't follow the guidelines since you really can't enforce the rules.

RE: Problem Hunter in Quality Deer Managment
 

on my grandfathers land, only 2 people hunt, me and his close friend. every year he kills anyhting he sees, last year he killed a four pointer that he shouldve let walk and wonders why there aint good quality deer there to hunt, i keep tryin to stress to my grandfather that we need to practice good deer managment becasue pretty soon there wont be any left in the area i try to practice it myself but it doesnt do any good

RE: Problem Hunter in Quality Deer Managment
 

Sounds like you should have talked to your Grandmother first and explained the situation. Sending out a newsletter without consulting her first may be what REALLY offended her more than the QDM ideas you have put forward. I'm just sayin'.

RE: Problem Hunter in Quality Deer Managment
 

x2

RE: Problem Hunter in Quality Deer Managment
 

Not your property, not your call.

RE: Problem Hunter in Quality Deer Managment
 

I agree that you should have consulted your grandmother first before sending out the letter to the family.

RE: Problem Hunter in Quality Deer Managment
 

That's pretty much how I see it too. Your grandmother is your elder, as well as your fathers' elder, and should be respected as such. Particularly in the case of her own property, and how that property in managed or used within the family.

I had a similar situation with my own grandmother's property in Illinois when I was younger, although I didn't have to worry so much about others shooting little bucks on the property. It was the neighbors on all sides of us that didn't care what they shot. Talk about a tough deal. We had 320 acres, but you didn't dare hunt it very hard or those big bucks you struggled to keep alive for 3-5 years would get whacked in a hurry.

Your situation seems much better to me, with maybe one small buck a year or so shot...what's the big deal? Your cousin will soon want a big buck, and he'll realize that the only way to do that is not to shoot the little ones.

RE: Problem Hunter in Quality Deer Managment
 

Is he truly kill happy or does he consider his youngin's a personal trophy? big difference imo

RE: Problem Hunter in Quality Deer Managment
 

Maybe you should buy your self some land then it would be yours to do with what you want.
If I were your grand mother I would tell you to mind your own business.I mean if in your heart you feel that that one six point he shoots per year is going to ruin your hunting then maybe you need to get another hobby. ;)
Are you going to be this upset when you find a four point hit on the road? Maybe you could send all local drivers a news letter and tell them not to drive by your land. [:o]

RE: Problem Hunter in Quality Deer Managment
 

Everybody else here has already addressed talking to your grandma first. I agree, not a lot you can do when the landowner has other ideas.
My only suggestion could backfire. How close are you to your cousin? Maybe you could talk to him or her directly and explain the situation, what you are trying to accomplishand get that opinion. The reason I say this may be risky, is if you are not close to your cousin or there is family squabble going on, then he may rush right to your grandmother and try to further provoke the situation.
250 is a good chunk of land. If you can only take 1 - 2 bucks by your state regulations, thenI believe your efforts will still be rewarded. You may have to bite your tongue a little bit if he kills a smaller deer, but be happy for him even if you have to fake it. That way he will see howhardwork and patience pays off when you bring in your record book buck. If you have talked to the neighbors and know the land,then you also know where the big deer are going to be. You should also know where your cousin is going to be hunting. Big deer do not get that way being dumb. When he blasts the fork horn, he might push the big boy right to you.

RE: Problem Hunter in Quality Deer Managment
 

Sounds like Granny is more interested in deer hunting than Quality Deer Farming.

RE: Problem Hunter in Quality Deer Managment
 

It isnt all about the horns, or what you think is a trophy.And it isnt all about you.

RE: Problem Hunter in Quality Deer Managment
 

i'll have to agree we should have consulted my grandmother about this first...however, there is supposed to be an unconditional love amongst families from which no hostility should be brought forth in a situation as such. I believed that seeing that myself, brother and father are so passionate about something such as QDM would bring joy into the heart's of familiy members, sadly though, I was greatly mistaken. As for it being her land, yes its her, however, the land is to be my Father's in the coming years and it would be his now had his sister not said "Mom, if he gets something I should get something too right now" so our name is not "officially" on the land...I don't know, I wasn't really looking for advice when it comes to matters of the family and I'd like to thank those of you who said you've dealt with situations like this before. As far as saying "elder deserves respect," respect is earned mutually. There are a lot of elders who I do not repsect one bit due to their unethical actions or spiteful ways, does that make me less of a person? I believe not. I guess I just thought that our passion for QDM would be repsected and accepted by our family....the end:)

RE: Problem Hunter in Quality Deer Managment
 

my cousin and i have a good relationship so this is coming from an unbiased view point...but, last year he shot at a five pointer and missed, then shot a doe twice and missed...this was all in a span of a couple minutes and when shooting at the doe he thought it was the five pointer both times...if you are shooting at something that you don't even know what it is ?! thats not ethical and it gives good hunters a bad name

RE: Problem Hunter in Quality Deer Managment
 

What happened to you on your grandmothers land is pretty much the same as what happens when states try to implement antler restrictions. Such practices will NEVER please everyone, because many people don't give a hoot about antler size. They just enjoy hunting and being outdoors, and taking any deer is fine with them. There is nothing wrong with such thinking in my opinion. They have every right to hunt whatever is legal, so the only way you will have the last say on this matter is if you somehow acquire ownership of this land or convince your grandmother to see it your way.

RE: Problem Hunter in Quality Deer Managment
 

It sounds like you are passionate about QDM while your cousin is passionate about tender grilled backstrap.But, with all that unconditional love you should be able to overlook your cousins silly impulse to fill his deer tag and get on with life

RE: Problem Hunter in Quality Deer Managment
 

Actually 250 acres is a nice amount of land, but at the same time it is not a huge amount by any stretch. The neighboring land owners may have agreed to not shoot the smaller bucks but who is to say that they don't allow guests to hunt once in a while where the smaller ones still get shot. Or maybe the neighboring hunters hold out for big bucks for most of the season, but when the last few days come around anything becomes fair game to them? Who says they can't change their minds at any moment on what they want to kill? They don't need your permission to do it, or tell you about it if they do shoot one. So that nice buck you let walk to give him another year, just might get himself shot anyway. Unless this land is fenced off, you will NEVER have any guarantees that the small ones won't be taken!

RE: Problem Hunter in Quality Deer Managment
 

It is your grandmothers property so its her call. Your cousin just might be in that phase of shooting what he sees. I went through that phase but now I'm just a trophy hunter. Its takes some hunters several kill to learn to deer hunt

RE: Problem Hunter in Quality Deer Managment
 

Hey, look at it this way: 250+ acres with one guy harvesting anything he sees. Overall impact on the herd shouldn't be too significant if he's only taking 2 or 3 deer a year.

About the best you can hope for.

RE: Problem Hunter in Quality Deer Managment
 

Some might argue that a good portion of the trophy shooters are the ones in need of learning about hunting. [X(]

RE: Problem Hunter in Quality Deer Managment
 

Well just don't give him any help gutting the deer, dragging it out, loading in the truck, taking it to the registration station, or butcheringand wrapping. Tell him that there's lots of work to be done around the farm and that your help is availablein thefutureif he helps out during the summer with your food plots and brush clearing,OR with a refundable deposit of $200 that he gets back if he shoots a doe or quality buck but not with the harvest of immature bucks. That way he has 3choices: 1)if he chooses to help out with food plots maybe he'll realize theinvestment you're trying to make in your deer herd and will begin to help manage withQDM ideals. 2)If he doesn't want to do anything then he's on his own. 3)If he wants to open up his pocketbook so he can shoot little bucksthen take his money.

RE: Problem Hunter in Quality Deer Managment
 

I like you grand ma.

Now that's a good one.

RE: Problem Hunter in Quality Deer Managment
 

Yep, sounds like Granny's got her priorities straight.

Pretty presumptuous of folks to "impose" their will on others when it's not their land to do so, or their deer for that matter! Maybe Granny will wise up and see the road that this is heading down and "give":eek:the land to the sister! That would be a hoot!

Incredible.....absolutely incredible, people's frame of mind these days, and for what???? So you can beat your chest and say "look at my big buck"?[:'(]

I've got an idea...why don't you go out and FINDthe mature deer that are already in the woods? Kill one that Mother Nature grew instead of one you did.

Rant over....[:@]

RE: Problem Hunter in Quality Deer Managment
 

So very true! Like anyone really cares how big a buck is other than some other hunters who want to have something to brag about also. All this QDM stuff is BS in my opinion. I don't care what people do on their own land, but many states are starting this nonesense on statewide levels. In my opinion a states responsibility is to manage deer numbers and not worry how big a bucks antlers can get. These QDM proponents try to feed us this stuff that it helps control the deer age structures and such, when the REAL facts are that it's only real purpose is to grow trophy deer for trophy hunters.

RE: Problem Hunter in Quality Deer Managment
 

First, for at least right now, Grandma calls the shots on the property so you'll have to live with that or hunt somewhere else.

I think if it were me and I wanted to hunt the mature deer and my cousin wanted to just shoot any buck they could, I'd do my scouting early, help them get in there and get that little buck that I didn't want in the herd anyway (possibly one that I wanted taken out for some reason) and get them (the cousin) out of thewoods so I could concentrate on that big one.
You'll probably never get everyone to subscribe to the limits you want to set (even family members). And, some are right when they say that the little ones might just go across the fence and get shot anyway. However, I'll guarantee one thing. IfYOU shoot him he sure as heck isn't going to make it till next year. If you let him walk, he has a chance. I think that's part of the problem. People on both sides of the fence are afraid that if they don't shoot the little guy, the hunter on the other side of the fence is going to do it so to be sure he doesn't get to do it, they do it themselves. I actually hope the guys on the other side of the fence are shooting the little ones that cross the fence some because then I know they aren't shooting the ones that I let walk for years growing like I wanted them to. Looks like a no win situation to me. If they actually want to hunt big mature deer, they are going to have to suck it up and sacrifice and take the chance that could happen but hold themselves back and just maybe the guy on the other side might too and then there's a chance that you'll get some big deer over the years. If people could just do that for 3 or 4 years, then from then on (providing they didn't go nuts and shoot too many bucks) there would be all age classes to hunt. They could actually begin shooting the oldest deer knowing there are deer the same age or one year less still there to be hunted the following year. Good luck with your hunting and your management plans. I hope it all eventually works out the way you'd like for it to. One other thing. If you'll take that cousin under your wing and hunt with them, they just might pick up some of your ideas. I suspect they aren't where you are in the hunting/management area of thinking yet.

RE: Problem Hunter in Quality Deer Managment
 

thanks for all the opinions and advice...my opinion still hasn't changed in that I believe QDM is a good thing, but I also respect those of you saying that if the cousin wants to kill anything, well then that's his perogative...as for me, there's just something special about spending countless hours in the woods waiting on a deer which has lived a long, healthly life rather than taking a younger buck that has several good years a head of him, but then again, that's MY perogative as well...but anyways, theres not much that can be done I guess..thanks for the advice nonetheless

RE: Problem Hunter in Quality Deer Managment
 

i would go to your grandmother and explain to her what qdm is and what it means also let he know what you wont to do and inform her what the pros and cons are if you include her in the proccess she will be more open to making some rules to the use of the land

don't just take it to your self to tell everyone what you wont them to do on her land it makes her feel unimportant and makes her think you all have little to no respect for her and "her land" include her in the proccess

also go talk to your couisn he might be open to the limits if you are the only four hunting why would you send out a news letter to everyone in your family . and you grandma might feel you are all trying to be pushing to your cousin did you include him in makeing the limits or just go tell him hay don't shoot unless it meets this list of rules . If you did that he more then likly went to your granma and said hey there trying to tell me what i can and can not kill

just include everyone when you make limits and rules for soemone elses land

but i agree with your limits

RE: Problem Hunter in Quality Deer Managment
 

I think you are one news letter late for this to work.

RE: Problem Hunter in Quality Deer Managment
 

You're going to screw around and piss everybody in the family off and then you are going to be out of a place to hunt. Grandma has already given her opinion, and it sounds like the cousin has just as much right to hunt on the property as you do. Practice QDM if YOU want to, but quit trying to tell everybody else how to hunt.

RE: Problem Hunter in Quality Deer Managment
 

haha, calm down champ....as far as saying the cousin has just as much right to hunt there as we do....seeing as how our house is on the land, we maintain it and care for all of it and when he comes he hunts, kills then doesn't process the meat or anything just gives the entire deer to someone else and when he does come over its only during hunting season with no interest in maintaining the hunting cabin, cutting firewood, etc etc...as far as saying telling people how to hunt? the newsletter said "hunting guidelines" and bud, guidelines and rules are much different (more like suggestions), but i'm sure you know that:) as far as "pissing people off", i can't say that i personally use that sort of venacular, so i'll remain silent on that matter....

RE: Problem Hunter in Quality Deer Managment
 

You ask for opinions and you have several. It's still grandma's land.:D

RE: Problem Hunter in Quality Deer Managment
 

i would agree it is alittle late but not impossablethey damage can be corrected might have to what a year to put the idea upto everyone as a groub effert

RE: Problem Hunter in Quality Deer Managment
 

Rant On.... [&:]

I don't understand how you can call Quality Deer Managment "Farming" or that you are growing deer in a way other than the way Mother Nature would have.

Traditional deer hunting by traditional hunters has completely screwed up deer populations in most states dramatically where there are as many as 10 does per buck and the average age of the does is 4 years old and the average age of those few bucks is around 2 years old.

One of the main purposes of QDM is to actually attempt to get deer populations back in balance the way "Mother Nature" had it before traditional deer hunters screwed it up by shooting only bucks and not shooting any does. I guarantee that 200 years ago a wolf pack or mountain lion didn't try to figure out the rack size of a deer before it tried to catch and eat it. They sure didn't care whether it had horns or not. As a result the deer population was relatively balanced with about as many does as there were bucks with an age structure that was pretty similar as well.

I really struggle folks who say "I don't care about horns, I'm a meat hunter" and then proceed to pass up shooting a doe to shoot a 2 year old buck. I wouldn't have a problem if someone said they were a meat hunter and shot the first deer that they saw whether it was a buck or a doe, but in my experience they seem to have a dramatic preference to young bucks.

Oh well, I doubt anyone's mind is going to be changed on the subject.

Rant over...[:@]

As far as this subject, I pretty much agree with most of you. It's Granny's land and she can call the shots. You might try to talk with her about QDM and eventually she might change her mind, but for some people it is like beating your head against a brick wall.

My 2 cents.

RE: Problem Hunter in Quality Deer Managment
 

UMMM, actually the whole point of QDM is to grow larger antlers. You know it, I know it, the whole world knows it. Don't try to pass off the other baloney. I like QDM, I even implement it on our farms. But, its not to fix mother nature its to grow some big bucks.

According to your analogy we should shoot the first deer that comes along like the wolves and mountain lions woulld. Whether its a yearling doe, button buck, 2 yo buck, old doe it doesn't matter that how Mother nature done it.

RE: Problem Hunter in Quality Deer Managment
 

Trophy Deer Managment is strictly to grow bigger antlers.

Quality Deer Managment puts a heavy emphasis on shooting does and letting the younger bucks walk. The emphasis is actually on the age structure of the deer population rather than the size of the horns.

As far as indiscriminately shooting the first deer to walk by I don't think that isQDM but it would actually be a step in the right direction from traditional deer hunting. I was trying to emphasis that "Mother Nature" did a much better job of deer managment than traditional deer hunting has, and that it is amazing how the self described "meat hunters" seem to have the uncanny ability to shoot a young buck year after year after year instead of shooting any does.

RE: Problem Hunter in Quality Deer Managment
 

Well, if you want to let "mother nature" handle it ALL by herself, we should then probably ban all hunting as we know it today and never shoot another wolf, coyote, or mountain lion again. Anyone who can read between the lines of what QDM really is knows that it's main purpose is to produce bigger bucks for hunters who want to shoot bigger bucks. Trying to sell it as anything else is really not being truthful. I am glad that there are other hunters like ShatoDavis who can see it for what it really is. Hopefully there are more.

RE: Problem Hunter in Quality Deer Managment
 

I will agree thattypically a mature buck will have larger antlers than an immature buck.

Horror of horrors that a side benefit to helping maintain a healthy deer population with a balanced sex and age structuremight actually result in more mature bucks with possiblylarger horns! :eek:

What a nightmare for all the hunters who just want to go out and shoot the first immature buck they can find! [&:]

RE: Problem Hunter in Quality Deer Managment
 

I'm lost here. Wouldn't real quality management involve leaving the really big healthy bucks with big racks alone so that they could continue to contribute to a good gene pool for a long time? Then when they outlive their breeding usefulness the coyotes can have them. Furthermore, i would think that past problems with deer populations were due to unrestricted overhunting, not the fact that some people choose to shoot a 4 pointer while others shoot a big buck, while others shoot a doe.

I don't really care if folks want to practice it or not, but when you get too preachy about it and/or try to do it with land that don't have your name on the deed you will likely get the same responses as you get on this thread.

RE: Problem Hunter in Quality Deer Managment
 

QDM is not about antler size or score, it's about maintaing a healthy balanced deer population.

Most studies have proven inconclusive whether "leaving the really big healthy bucks with big racks alone so that they could continue to contribute to a good gene pool for a long time" actually results in larger antlers of their desendants or not. This is especially true with free range deer where genetics really seem to be a mystery with immature bucks traveling up to 50 miles to find a new home range.

"Furthermore, i would think that past problems with deer populations were due to unrestricted overhunting, not the fact that some people choose to shoot a 4 pointer while others shoot a big buck, while others shoot a doe."


I disagree. Every state is different, but in Texas there was a mentality fordecades that it was "beneath" a true hunter to shoot a doe. As a result, across much of the state doe populations skyrocketed and the overall deer populations skyrocketed with it. The end result was a malnourished overpopulated deer herd with a 1 to 10 buck to doe ratio and live body weights dropping under 100 lbs for mature does and not much more for a mature buck.

The state is just now getting things back on track with increasing body weight on deer and a much more balanced deer population with their habitat. I think a lot of this is due to QDM being fairly widely accepted now over much of the state and hunters being willing to do their part by harvesting does.

Oh well, I can get sidetracked pretty easy, but basically you can do a lot more for the overall deer population by creating and improving habitat and keeping the population in balance with the habitat than pretty much anything else. Letting a young buck walk and shooting a doe instead will pay off after just a few years if you can get as many people involved as possible. Mature bucks will never be easy to find, even practicing QDM, but you will have a MUCH better chance if you let them walk when they are young.