Overpowering and underpowering??
12-26-2002, 10:42 PM
#1
Nontypical Buck
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Gypsum KS USA
Posts: 1,289
Overpowering and underpowering??
I've been here a long time, something like 6 years now, reading more than speaking for the most part, but I always bite on those " what cal for ???" or " is a ??? good for ????" posts, and I've kinda noticed something I find contradictory.
Might not make sense in this board, I just want deer hunters opinions on this too, since it's relating deer hunters and big game hunters.
Whenever someone asks about a .243 for deer, it's like you have to put it in a dime at 50yrds or it's not going to take them down, since it's too under powered. But then when someone asks about using a big bore such as a .375 H&H for big bruins, browns or moose, guys act like it's so over powered, that a guy just needs to take a .30-06 and make sure you get a great shot. Basically, they're saying the .243 is to deer what a .30-06 is to bear, but it's necessary to over power on deer, but out of the question on big game, like even though a .243 will do it, you NEED a .30-06, but even though a .375 H&H will do it really well, you should limit yourself to a marginal round?? What's up with that??
Screw the 10 ring, keep them in the zero!!!
Might not make sense in this board, I just want deer hunters opinions on this too, since it's relating deer hunters and big game hunters.
Whenever someone asks about a .243 for deer, it's like you have to put it in a dime at 50yrds or it's not going to take them down, since it's too under powered. But then when someone asks about using a big bore such as a .375 H&H for big bruins, browns or moose, guys act like it's so over powered, that a guy just needs to take a .30-06 and make sure you get a great shot. Basically, they're saying the .243 is to deer what a .30-06 is to bear, but it's necessary to over power on deer, but out of the question on big game, like even though a .243 will do it, you NEED a .30-06, but even though a .375 H&H will do it really well, you should limit yourself to a marginal round?? What's up with that??
Screw the 10 ring, keep them in the zero!!!
12-27-2002, 01:13 AM
#3
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: A shack in Arkansas
Posts: 2,029
RE: Overpowering and underpowering??
Halcon pretty much summed it up for me. heck did it better i would have used such words as idiots and dummys!
Truth is i think alot of folks think they know something. ask them how many deer they have taken and see what the response is!
But after working for my buddy for several years off and on in his pawn shop and selling many guns. i have seen just how many idiots there are out there.
It always used to kill me when someone would tell me that a 308 win was so weak compared to a 30 -06 . Why? cause the 30 -06 case is longer! many would say. i have heard so many stupid ones i got to where i just listened to the dummys and said yes! the customer was always right make the sale . and then send the idiots on there way!
SOUTH ARKANSAS REBEL
Truth is i think alot of folks think they know something. ask them how many deer they have taken and see what the response is!
But after working for my buddy for several years off and on in his pawn shop and selling many guns. i have seen just how many idiots there are out there.
It always used to kill me when someone would tell me that a 308 win was so weak compared to a 30 -06 . Why? cause the 30 -06 case is longer! many would say. i have heard so many stupid ones i got to where i just listened to the dummys and said yes! the customer was always right make the sale . and then send the idiots on there way!
SOUTH ARKANSAS REBEL
12-27-2002, 05:36 AM
#5
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Fredericksburg Virginia USA
Posts: 13,672
RE: Overpowering and underpowering??
I do not beleive in over gunned, unless maybe you are talking about a military 50 cal. That might be a bit much! I would much rather have to much gun than to little. Hitting one in the boiler room the difference in lost meat between a 30-30 round and larger rounds is minimal. I like any round that with a good hit will knock an animal flat!!!
The Tazman aka Martin Price
Founder and President of
Virginia Disabled Outdoorsmen Club
The Tazman aka Martin Price
Founder and President of
Virginia Disabled Outdoorsmen Club
12-27-2002, 06:50 AM
#6
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Pittsburgh PA
Posts: 1,086
RE: Overpowering and underpowering??
halcon, nailed that one.
Personally I have used a 243 for nearly all of my rifle deer. I find it plenty powerful to take a deer down within a short distance even if not "THE" perfect shot placement.
Personally I have used a 243 for nearly all of my rifle deer. I find it plenty powerful to take a deer down within a short distance even if not "THE" perfect shot placement.
12-27-2002, 07:08 AM
#7
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Adirondack Moutains USA Member since sept/02
Posts: 1,639
RE: Overpowering and underpowering??
Halcon said it!!! I think sometimes people buy the bigger gun because they think they will take down an animal no matter where they hit it(not everyone). I think it depends on what kind of shot you are and what Type of gun you like.
12-27-2002, 07:17 AM
#8
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Garner NC USA
Posts: 143
RE: Overpowering and underpowering??
NoMercy, I am glad you mentioned this topic. Being a newbie, I have taken a lot of advice from the guys on this board, but at the same time have gotten a little confused about somethings. Like the other guys said, I guess it is a matter of opinion. I agree with Taz, you can never be overgunned....but could be undergunned easy. Thanks.
Hector
Hector
12-27-2002, 08:58 AM
#9
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Alexandria VA USA
Posts: 27
RE: Overpowering and underpowering??
Nomercy, this is an age-old controversy.
Some think that using the smaller calibers is more sporting and a sign of greater skill ~ sort of like wing-shooting with a .410-bore as opposed to downing pheasant with a 3" 12ga.
Some others believe that it is far better to use larger, heavier bullets, since the purpose is to kill humanely and not to show one's finesse.
This is a debate that goes back at least as far as the pre-war days, when Jack O'Connor and Elmer Keith would conduct a bitter war of words defending their respective positions.
I, for one, have never been able to understand the concept of "overkill", so I guess I am more in Keith's camp. No, you can't get sloppy with shot placement with a .375 anymore than you would want to do so with a .243 ~ but all other factors being equal, the .375 will penetrate more, break more bone, create a bigger wound channel and 99 times out of 100 will leave a generous entry and exit wound.
On the other side of the coin, though, you have shootability. It is doubtless that for many hunters a .243 is a heckuva lot easier to shoot accurately than a .375, so there you have it - two contrasting variables.
The secret is to find an ideal point (represented by a cartridge) on the lethality/shootability curve that maximises both. Once we find this point, it almost always becomes our "favorite cartridge".
That's why the 30-06 is so popular. For North American game, it's one of the most lethal cartridges (especially with the heavier 180+grain bullets) while remaining eminently shootable by all but the most recoil-sensitive.
Instead, cartridges like the .243 are successful mostly because of how easy it is to shoot them and to place shots in the desired areas. However, they may be marginal at best as all-around numbers for this continent.
So, it can be said that both the .243 and the .375 are outliers on the opposite end of the lethality/shootability curve. But this doesnt' mean that there aren't guys who know how, when (and when not!) to take a shot with them to a point that they wouldn't use anything else.
I have a .375 that is somewhat heavy, and that I don't mind lugging around even on tough terrain. But when I shoot it, it really pays off ~ and I have very seldom had to give my animals a second shot. Come to think of it, every time I plan a hunt I automatically think of using that rifle. Does that mean I consider the .375 ideal? No, but it has worked very well for me.
So far, at least.
Edited by - .333 Nitro Express on 12/27/2002 10:03:23
Some think that using the smaller calibers is more sporting and a sign of greater skill ~ sort of like wing-shooting with a .410-bore as opposed to downing pheasant with a 3" 12ga.
Some others believe that it is far better to use larger, heavier bullets, since the purpose is to kill humanely and not to show one's finesse.
This is a debate that goes back at least as far as the pre-war days, when Jack O'Connor and Elmer Keith would conduct a bitter war of words defending their respective positions.
I, for one, have never been able to understand the concept of "overkill", so I guess I am more in Keith's camp. No, you can't get sloppy with shot placement with a .375 anymore than you would want to do so with a .243 ~ but all other factors being equal, the .375 will penetrate more, break more bone, create a bigger wound channel and 99 times out of 100 will leave a generous entry and exit wound.
On the other side of the coin, though, you have shootability. It is doubtless that for many hunters a .243 is a heckuva lot easier to shoot accurately than a .375, so there you have it - two contrasting variables.
The secret is to find an ideal point (represented by a cartridge) on the lethality/shootability curve that maximises both. Once we find this point, it almost always becomes our "favorite cartridge".
That's why the 30-06 is so popular. For North American game, it's one of the most lethal cartridges (especially with the heavier 180+grain bullets) while remaining eminently shootable by all but the most recoil-sensitive.
Instead, cartridges like the .243 are successful mostly because of how easy it is to shoot them and to place shots in the desired areas. However, they may be marginal at best as all-around numbers for this continent.
So, it can be said that both the .243 and the .375 are outliers on the opposite end of the lethality/shootability curve. But this doesnt' mean that there aren't guys who know how, when (and when not!) to take a shot with them to a point that they wouldn't use anything else.
I have a .375 that is somewhat heavy, and that I don't mind lugging around even on tough terrain. But when I shoot it, it really pays off ~ and I have very seldom had to give my animals a second shot. Come to think of it, every time I plan a hunt I automatically think of using that rifle. Does that mean I consider the .375 ideal? No, but it has worked very well for me.
So far, at least.
Edited by - .333 Nitro Express on 12/27/2002 10:03:23
