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Point Restrictions Isn't the answer....
I was reading comments made about Pa.'s Point Restriction put into effect this year....it's my take that Pa.'s buck to doe ratio is waaay outta proportion....It's way outta proportion here in SW Va also......I'm firmly believe that the only way to improve the quality of the herd is to reduce the quantity....by this I'm saying take does.....they don't put doe tags on your license to just look pretty..They want you to use them....SURE, point restrictions will help to see bigger bucks next year...but your still not improving the quality of the herd....here in SW Va I get two either sex tags and three antlerless only tags....I talk to some hunters and they say, "I don't shoot anything but bucks"....well, personally I think that sucks...cause they're not managing the resources....I think too much emphasis is placed on taking a B&C buck....I mean, I've watched some of the monster buck videos, buckmaster tv show, etc etc....and they take bigger deer on the tv show's than most hunters will ever see out in the wild....and I've never heard Bill Jordan mention anything about taking does.....all I've ever heard him talk about is planting food plots...well, again, most hunters don't own ranches or have acreage upon acreage, nor the funding to plant a 300 acre plot of Tecomante Double Rack Jack.....so don't get caught up in the big buck hype....OH sure, that's why we all hunt....but we should also hunt to manage our herds....I've taken 3 does this year and 0 bucks....I let at least 10 small bucks(from spikes to a basket 8) run along about thier business this year....Taking does is the key...
In our line of work, we must be able to play Dixie and the Battle Hym of the Republic, With Equal Enthusiasm. |
RE: Point Restrictions Isn't the answer....
I couldn't agree with you more. I don't have the resources, time, or money to do anything more than hunt during the gun season in Wisconsin. I would really, really ,really like to get into archery for deer (in the near future). I used to be of the mentality of hunt for horns the first weekend and settle for a doe (if I was lucky enough to see one) the second weekend. I went too many years deerless. I shifted my thinking to the DNR's point of view. They are issuing the tags in the hopes that we will fill them and reduce the overall numbers buck or doe. Since I've been doing that, not only have I seen more bucks, I've also seen bigger bucks that ever before (on the same land). I think the overall herd size and buck/doe ratios need to take precedence before point restrictions will have any significant, long lasting effects.
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RE: Point Restrictions Isn't the answer....
Arkansas put a 3 point rule on us about 2 or 3 yrsd ago.It is helping on bigger buck's but most people are not using their Doe tag's.Seem's like everybody want's a big buck'me too but it still are part to take Doe's are it still going be messed up herd.Question why do most of you guy's refuse to shoot Doe's.We are part on DNR's way of controlling the herd.That mean's taking Doe's and Buck's right?So let's all do our part so that the anti's can't holler we are not doing our job's.
SAVE A HUNTER EATA PETA |
RE: Point Restrictions Isn't the answer....
Finally someone has the mind to speak out. I have noticed this in just about every state that I have hunted in. I live in Arkansas now and this was my first season to hunt here, but right away I can say that like Hawgz said, the herds here are just WAY out of balance. I did see a few small bucks and such (even a couple of mid sized bucks), but by far saw more does than anything (large and small). I also agree that these antler restrictions (3 point rule) won't do any good if we dont begin to better manage the herds. And YES that means we HAVE to get away from this "B&C fever" way of thinking. The health of the overall herd is the most important thing. Thanx for the encouragement Fullback and others.
One Shot, One Kill Hunting is the one sport where, if you are playing right, the other team doesn't even know you're in the game. |
RE: Point Restrictions Isn't the answer....
You're right-the balance is way out of whack.That's why the PGC issued over 1 million doe tags this year.
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RE: Point Restrictions Isn't the answer....
Georgia issues 10 doe tags and 2 buck tags with one being a 4pt. or better on one side. 6 counties including mine have a 4pt. or better on one side rule for both buck tags. I see better deer in the "kill anything" counties than I do in the trophy counties. Antlers are about the worst judge of age there is. I think we just need to have more does taken and more spikes shot. If you want alot of average deer, let spikes walk, if you want fewer bucks but with better antlers you should shoot the spikes. It seems all I see are spikes and fork horns.
"Hey ya'll, watch this" |
RE: Point Restrictions Isn't the answer....
The PA Game Commision put out more than enough doe tags. We have to change the attitude of the hunters who are only out to harvest a buck. They think that if you let the does walk their will be more bucks for next year. "If you shoot a doe you just killed 3 deer for next year.", is the line I hear too often when trying to convince buck only hunters. The idea behind AR's is to force hunters to pass on these smaller bucks and take a doe. Alot of hunters only have a few days to hunt and chances are they are going to see alot more does than legal bucks.(atleast for the first couple of years) If they want their freezer filled, they often have to shoot the doe. The PGC's main objective here is to balance the herd. The changes are not ONLY about the hunter, but more importantly balancing the population and creating a healthier overall herd. They used AR as a means to get it done and bigger bucks as the main selling point. They have changed the minds of many hunters and hopefully in time alot more. I have changed the minds of all of my family and the majority of my friends already believe this will work. My father in-law still refuses to buy a doe tag. I haven't swung his vote yet. But he had to pass on a couple sub legal bucks this year and said he could of shot many does the one day he did hunt. Meanwhile the rest of the family has freezers filled with venison from multiple does. I keep telling him, "You can't eat the horns." Maybe next year I'll change his mind.
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RE: Point Restrictions Isn't the answer....
The buck to doe ratio is out of control in some areas.The areas that are closed to hunting,owned by antis and the suburban areas.The public gamelands are over hunted here in the S.E. and deer are far and few between. My daughter lives next to gamelands 52 in Berks county.The biggest problem is parking and orange people running all over their back yard. I bet they didnt take more then 10 deer out of Gamelands 52 this year. I counted 123 vehicles in the parking lots and 2 deer taken the 1st saturday.But all around the private lands are out of control.What good does a million doe tags do if the majority of the does are locked up??? Smaller management units need to be put in place for starters.A better way to count deer pop.Not all areas are over populated.There is some of that private locked up area that could be opened If the State would butter the bread of the land owner .Not all locked up land is owned by antis.There just scared of having a bad experience with hunters.They pay farmers for not planting certain crops ,why not pay landowners to allow hunters to enjoy these areas? It would be worth the increase in License fees for me anyway
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RE: Point Restrictions Isn't the answer....
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> I keep telling him, "You can't eat the horns." <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote> If you really feel this way then why agree with the AR. Yes I think everyone would love to have a hugh antlered buck to hang on the wall but I have also seen many people who have spikes ar 3pt mounted and are just as proud of them as can be.
Personally I have only one deer that scored over 130 and yes I am very proud of it but I am just as proud of the 6pt I took this year with my bow and the 5pt from year before last. I do not shoot a deer that I am not proud of. I hunted too many years without a shot at any deer back in the mid 60's to mid 70's. Granted there are plenty of deer right now but with the spread of CWD and other illnesses and most states giving unlimited doe permits in just a couple of years we could see a drastic change. It can go from too many deer to hardly any deer in just a short time. I have many friends that will not shoot a buck that doesnt make the book and I am glad they feel that way some of them go without a deer many years because that big boy just doesnt present a shot. They can so that as we have 4 bow only counties here in Southern WV but I will also say that those 4 counties are starting to produce a lot of substandard bucks as they call them as the deer pop is getting larger all the time and the hugh bucks are becoming more scarse all the time. I may be wrong (my wife says I am a lot) but I dont think AR is any key to reducing a deer heard I think it is about a state trying to grow bigger bucks and hoping for more hunters money to hunt them. As in come to PA land of the 6pt and above bucks all this is just one man's opinion. Roy |
RE: Point Restrictions Isn't the answer....
It can't hurt. I think there on the right track ...Bill
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RE: Point Restrictions Isn't the answer....
Royak, I say that because my father in-law and others like him think a 4 point is a better deer than a doe. Bragging rights, I guess. I agree with AR, because the population is out of wack and needs to be corrected. Yes, I'd love to shoot a wall hanger every year. We all know that'll never happen, but if I pass on the smaller bucks and fill my freezer with a couple does each year, I'll have more of a chance than if I shot the first fork horn that walked by. I agree with you Cardeer about not every area is over populated. We do need smaller DMU's and access to private property. The PGC has addressed both of these issuse and hopefully will see some more changes next year.
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RE: Point Restrictions Isn't the answer....
I still don't like point restrictions in Pa. I don't think the PGC should be allowed to tell you what you can or can not shoot. They don't own the herd they are here to manage it. I think money is still the driving force behind Alt & all his bull<font color=red>edited</font id=red>. Statements he has made just don't sound right coming from a biologist, such as " I'm surprised at the spring fawn mortallity due to black bears." Or the statement he made about bucks losing thier antlers due to overpopulation of does, they're tired from chasing too many does. I question some of these statements. I think the auto insurance copany's & tree farmers have alot of impact on the PGC. When bigger bucks start showing up like they have in the mid-west I think we will see a large increase in license fees. I own almost 300 acres, & I would not let the PGC talk me into anything. My neighbor owns over 400 acres & will not let anyone other than the locals hunt his property. I know I'll probably take some heat on my opinion but it's my way of thinking, I don't trust Alt & I smell something fishy in the future of Pa. hunting.
<font color=red>I have the tendancy to delete posts that skirt the profanity filter. Please be advised in the red edit. Next time, deleted</font id=red>, <font color=blue>Rob</font id=blue> Edited by - Rob/PA Bowyer on 12/26/2002 22:30:32 |
RE: Point Restrictions Isn't the answer....
DG, can you explain to me how Pennsylvania doesn't have a liberal amount of time to kill does? We have early archery season, which is over a month long. This is open to buck and doe, also mixed in with that is junior/senior antlerless rifle hunting. Then, you have "buck" season, which is two weeks long, you are allowed to harvest a buck OR DOE in that who two week season, then finally, you have late season archery/muzzleloader season, which is roughly a month long. This is open to doe hunting too. That is around 3 full months out of the 12 months in a year that hunters are allowed to harvest does. That sounds more than fair to me.
The PGC has handed out more than 1,000,000 doe tags. Isn't that enough to knock down the doe herd? I hear so many people talk about hunters not using their doe tags, but, even if 60% of these hunters do and are successful, that is still more doe killed off than ever before. Our herd size is WAY too large. Personally, I like seein deer every time I go hunting, but, I am in the woods to relax. I am going to take everything in. At the end of the day, I am just as happy to have watched two squirrels fighting as seeing a line of doe walk past me. We need to decrease the size of the herd dramatically. I like Cardeer's idea of trying to open up more hunting land. My best friend lives about a mile from me and, EVERY night there are over 50 deer feeding in ONE cornfield in front of his house. Why? Because it is posted and the landowner is the only person that hunts it. Everywhere around this property is hunted so every deer that is pressured runs to this little patch of woods. The field is maybe 15 acres, and there is no way that it can sustain 50 deer, and heck, thats only the ones that you can see. I know from a fact that the PGC has my rated the area I hunt to have around 40-45 deer per square mile. This, I believe to be an understatement. I can do a big circle while spotting, maybe covering 2 square miles, and I have seen over 200 deer some nights. On average, I see about 100 deer per night. It doesn't matter if all 2 square miles were planted in nothing but food plots, it still couldn't CONSTANTLY sustain that amount of deer. The Game Commission has done there part, now it is up to the hunters. I hear some many people blamming everything on the Game Commission, but, the PGC can't go out and shoot a doe for someone, it is up to the hunter. Your not going to change the minds of alot of people by telling them that it will be better for the deer herd to shoot a doe. Too many people are out for their ego trip on antlers, wether it be a spike or a 14 point. I will admit, I pass on small bucks while waiting for that big one, but, I refuse to pass on any doe if I have a doe tag. If I have a doe tag, the first doe that gives me a good shot is going to die. Then, like others, the challenge begins for me. The problem of people "saving doe tags" is not just going to go away in a year or two. The ONLY way to make it go away is to let ALL junior hunters know that they need to use their doe tags and that they SHOULD harvest does. If we do this, over time, the old guys stuck to their ways will eventually give up hunting or pass away and the generation of youth who have been taught to harvest does will be replacing the spot the older guys who saved their tags were at. It would take half a century to do this, and then it isn't even certain. ALL WE CAN DO IS TRY TO GET MORE HUNTERS TO SHOOT DOES AND PASS ON THOSE SMALL BUCKS!!!!!!! Good Luck This Season: Buck Magnet  Check out my hunting PICS here http://community.webshots.com/user/buckmagnet |
RE: Point Restrictions Isn't the answer....
i duno if this was posted but PA alloted close to 1 million doe liscenses this year...more for counties with more deer and less in counties where there arent so many deer...doe season runs the legnth of buck season and there are a few special doe season allowing even more deer to be taken...the ARs arent for trophys so much...they are to try to get some younger bucks to live longer and pass more on and make more bucks...now if it was the same 3 day doe season i could see the reason for saying they wont work but this year even with the ARs i heard a little less shooting but way less hunters were seen...and this year most hunters had their doe tags showing and last year most were buck hunting...i think alot of does got taken this year and alot of bucks passed because they simply couldnt tell in time...sure the buck harvest may be pretty high still but i think they worked to a certain extant...i think the herd will even out soon...i hope it all works..it was 4 years before i seen a buck while hunting..i see over 20 does a season and not one buck until this year..my buck this year was AR legal too...he made it until 9:15am when i tagged him...
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RE: Point Restrictions Isn't the answer....
AR's will work but need some time to work. We do need to refine things, but PA is on the right track,rather than the old way!!!
Brian |
RE: Point Restrictions Isn't the answer....
Fullback first thing in Va. we only get 4 tags with our initial license, other than that you speak the truth in regards to Va.
I like New Jerseys method, they call it "earn a buck", what this means is you have to kill a doe before you can take a buck!! This is a great idea in my book, if you do not kill a doe, you can't kill a buck. This program will definantly decrease doe numbers and increase buck numbers. I would like to see Va. put a program like this into effect. I figured out that if you hunted all seasons every day, killed your limit every day, and bought additional doe tags in Va. you could legally kill 3 bucks and over 100 doe in a single season. You are right that some guys are strictly horn hunters, I am a deer hunter and love venison, I take every deer I can legally as long as it is not a fawn. The Tazman aka Martin Price Founder and President of Virginia Disabled Outdoorsmen Club  |
RE: Point Restrictions Isn't the answer....
Hey Taz, you and I live in different parts of the state and I guess I should clarify my thinking....when I buy my license I get two either sex(which I use for bucks), I get one antlerless tag, and I also get another either sex for East of the Blueridge(which I'm not) so I do get 4 tags on my initial license....but I do buy 2 bonus tags which are antlerless only...so I'd actually get six, but only five are valid here west of the blueridge....I use the antlerless tag along with the two bonus tags to fill the freezer with does and then hunt horns....just wanted to clear that up...I was a little vague.
In our line of work, we must be able to play Dixie and the Battle Hym of the Republic, With Equal Enthusiasm. |
RE: Point Restrictions Isn't the answer....
I must add something to this....when I'm talking about taking does, I'm saying to go out and shoot every legal doe that crosses your path...I mean you can if you want and not hear a complaint from me.....I use early archery season to take most of the does I shoot....the rut is weeks off....during early archery season, unless I've a nice buck patterned, then I usually hunt does....I look carefully to make sure that I don't take a button buck....there is a time to let the does walk....during the pre-rut and rut....I'll usually let a doe walk by in hopes of seeing a nice buck following...if a doe comes up, acting like somethings behind her, I'll let her walk...all I'm saying is to use some sense when it comes to doe vs. buck hunting....shoot more does than bucks, THERE'S NOTHING WRONG WITH IT...YOU'RE HELPING THE DEER HERD....AR, even though I'm for it, isn't a cure all for herd balancing....it's up to us....take the does now, and we and our children will reap the benefits.
In our line of work, we must be able to play Dixie and the Battle Hym of the Republic, With Equal Enthusiasm. |
RE: Point Restrictions Isn't the answer....
Since I'm on a roll, I'm gonna keep going on.....Just because Bill Jordan and Jackie Bushman aren't doe advocates, doesn't mean that you shouldn't be....Bill Jordan and Jackie Bushman aren't hunting much in Pennsylvania or South Western Va....they're not hunting on National Forest lands.....I mean if I were hunting on intensely managed areas like Milk River Montana, or these big ranches in Texas, or Pike Co. Illinois, or these Iowa Cornfields...I imagine i'd hold out for a nice one also....but these videos and such are getting to be too much like Hollywood, it's not real life anymore....I think I'm done for the time being....I might think of something else in a little while.
In our line of work, we must be able to play Dixie and the Battle Hym of the Republic, With Equal Enthusiasm. |
RE: Point Restrictions Isn't the answer....
fullback I hope I didn't offend you, when I first read your post I though "Man I am getting old" I had to pull my license out to make sure I wasn't going crazy! LOL I hunt the eastern portion of Va. so I had never even noticed the "eastern" on the last tag!
Like you I don't if possible shoot buttons or fawns/little ones, I do pop every legal doe that meets the above except during the rut. I really do think the earn your buck would increase the doe harvest in Va. The Tazman aka Martin Price Founder and President of Virginia Disabled Outdoorsmen Club |
RE: Point Restrictions Isn't the answer....
Hey Tazman, No offense was taken....I was just a little vague in my description...I too like the earn a buck deal....I wouldn't mind seeing AR...and I definatly don't mind grilling does....LOL...Hey Taz, do ya'll run dogs there in your part of VA?....I make a trip to Mecklenburg Co. about every year to join in on a dog hunt....it's fun to do a couple times a year...just wondering.
In our line of work, we must be able to play Dixie and the Battle Hym of the Republic, With Equal Enthusiasm. |
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RE: Point Restrictions Isn't the answer....
Taz, you better watch out the other NJ ites. They will blast you for saying you like the earn a buck idea. I do to but I would be killed for liking it. It seems that a bunch of areas that I DON"T hunt other hunters say they don't see many or any deer while out hunting. I my self see plenty of deer and I am only 300 yards at most from rt 72. I see 5 to about 15 deer on a 3 hour hunt. Not bad to me. But I Am with you it does seem to be help get the ratio in control. Just a heads up to ya. <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>.
Brian |
RE: Point Restrictions Isn't the answer....
MD. has a plan where you get a buck, then must take 2 does before another buck. The plan is different from PGC as more population control than growing big bucks. I like the idea. Also new this year was unlimited in the anterless dept.
Management practices are different between suburburn areas as opposed to larger wide open spaces. I hunted Pa. 1 time about 15 yrs ago. In 3 days I must have saw 300 does and not 1 buck. Pa. has taken steps to take more does. In Va. I wish they would make anterless days run the complete season. Taz make sure you use the east of the Blueridge tag 1st. As if you use the 2 antlered tags without using the EOBR tag you will be limited to doe days only at places like Quantico as they will not honer the EOBR tag. A friend had this happen and had to set home or squirrel hunt. Good Luck. Capt Brad. Edited by - capt brad on 12/26/2002 22:53:46 |
RE: Point Restrictions Isn't the answer....
Rapid-Fire what fullback was refering to, I have seen a lot of hunters do, they will only kill bucks, if everyone was like you and I and started popping every doe they could legally we wouldn't have the buck to doe ration so out of whack in Va. I would hate to see Va. start some kind of point restrictions to increase numbers of bucks.
Capt Brad your plan is a good one also, I feel the earn a buck is better(just my opinion), especially if you bow hunt, in Va. the entire bow season is buck or doe, black powder is the same. The Tazman aka Martin Price Founder and President of Virginia Disabled Outdoorsmen Club |
RE: Point Restrictions Isn't the answer....
Several years ago Miss. went to 4 pts(total)or better for bucks.They also made the entire season on private poperty or leased lands either sex.The limit on does is five.The goal of this was not to produce trophy bucks,but to try and balance the sex ratio.In some areas it was 10 to 1.Since our heard was out of balance most of the young bucks were spikes.By protecting the 1 1/2 bucks and shooting more does the sex ratio has come down.We still don't kill "trophy" deer.The soil quality in many areas of the state is poor and there is very little agriculture.The only problem with a point restriction is high grading.That is a young buck with a really good rack will probably be shot his first or second year.I don't agree with shooting spikes because they are inferior.Maybe if you are hunting a highly managed property with plenty of food and good genetics.But for us because of poor habitat and a deer heard at or above capacity.Most of our young bucks are spikes their first year.Studies done by Miss. state biologists and Dr. James Kroll in Texas have shown that with age and proper nutrition most spike bucks will catch up in antler development.One of the largest bucks ever raised by Mark Johnson at the LSU research facility was a spike his first year.The moral of this story is shoot does and let the young bucks walk.Then shoot mature bucks at least 3 1/2 years old.They may or may not be "trophys".But at least the sex ratio will be more balanced and the bucks will have a chance to develop some decent antlers.When I hear some one say you cant eat the horns,I would say that's right so shoot a doe and let that little fellow walk.
CB WHACKEM N STACKEM |
RE: Point Restrictions Isn't the answer....
I don't believe antler restrictions are the answer. You get a person out in the woods he see's horns, he gets excited and shoots, deer goes down, guy walks over to his kill, the buck is only 3 points (his zone says 4point or more),hunter doesn't want to get in trouble, leaves deer. Now wouldn't it have been better if he could have kept this deer instead of wasteing the meat? Oh by the way the deer was 4 years old it just didn't have enough nutrients to grow a big rack it still weighed in at 210#. I think as time is going by hunters are to worried about what they can show off and they're not worrying about whats really happening. I also believe that the deer population is out of wack. Maybe instead of haveing an antler restriction we could have a BUCK restriction for a year or 2. I for one hunt for meat I always look for the bigger deer and never take bambi's(I don't believe in the saying if it's brown it's down). I would love to have a nice 12 point to hang on the wall just like everyone else. When you start putting antler restrictions on deer you are asking for trouble as PA as shown us by the wasted deer meat in the woods.
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RE: Point Restrictions Isn't the answer....
The earn a buck might be a good system if NJ only gave you two or three buck tags instead of seven. And another problem is that some idiot hunters would check the same doe in seven different times among friends, so that they could shoot the next buck they saw. Combine that with the fact that you can hunt up until February 15th in certain zones and think about the amount of bucks that are being taken that have already shed their antlers. And of course we can't forget about all the buttons that get shot at this time either. Any managment will help if people don't go out to shoot the first thing they see which is a problem in NJ.
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RE: Point Restrictions Isn't the answer....
Anyone who is shooting hair as we say without properly identifying his target is not much of a hunter in my opinion.It is illegal to shoot spikes where I hunt.Sometimes it's hard to see small spikes on a deer.If I see a single deer I am really carefull about shooting.Sometimes I pass on an opportunity because I'm not sure.That's called being an ethical hunter.I still kill my limit of does.I think the idea of deer being left in the woods is way overblown.It has'nt been an issue for us.
CB WHACKEM N STACKEM |
RE: Point Restrictions Isn't the answer....
I like model722's idea of buck restriction for a year or 2. Although, I do think AR's will work. I do think the majority of illegal bucks are being turned in. Hopefully the hunters who haven't turned in their illegal bucks didn't get a shot at another buck and took a doe. If AR's dont' work, I would be all for a buck drawing. Everyone gets a doe tag with license and get your name in a drawing for a buck tag. Probably make ALOT of hunters mad, but if that's what it takes to fixed our problem, so be it.
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RE: Point Restrictions Isn't the answer....
Earn a buck or drawing for buck tags? What if the deer of a lifetime walks out and you did'nt win the lottery or haven't killed a doe yet?
This really is'nt that complicated folks.In Miss. we had the same problem.Too many deer and too few bucks.The solution is simple,shoot more does and let young bucks walk.It really is that simple.The state changed the bag limit to 3 bucks with 4 points or better and 5 does.They were sending the message we want you to shoot more does than bucks.We want you to let the 1 1/2 old bucks walk.It has worked for us.Yes people bitched and complained the first couple of years.But now that people are seeing and killing more mature bucks you don't hear too much complaining.Deer management in many states will be changing.People don't like change,it's human nature.I remember when we first started hunting our lease.It was taboo to kill does.The old timers would'nt allow it.They grew up in a time of few deer.Establishing deer numbers was the goal.Then when numbers began increasing the state tried to get hunters to shoot more does.Alot of people said we would wipe out the deer herd.It has'nt happened.Now that some states are trying to balance the sex ratio because of over harvest of young bucks some people are resisting change.It's not about trophy hunting,it's about balancing the number of bucks and does.It will work if you give it time. CB WHACKEM N STACKEM |
RE: Point Restrictions Isn't the answer....
Cajun I believe you are an ethical hunter, but can you say that the other thousands of hunters out there are the same way? All you need to do is read a paper and you can see there are dead deer in the woods left by hunters. I'm not saying that they are bad hunters, but sometimes excitment does get the better of a person especially the newer hunters with itchy fingers. They see a deer they know it is deffinatlly a buck ,but excitement makes them think they have a 4point instead of a 3point. Maybe it was cloudy that day, maybe the deer was standing next to a tree that made it look like it had an extra point, etc... Then again are we trying to judge a deer's age by the size of his rack? Most hunters know that you can't judge a deer's age by his rack. I know that we should let the little guys go. Instead of putting restrictions on everything maybe there should be better hunting coarses. I shot a deer this year, new for a fact it was a 4point, until I walked over and saw that 2 points had been broke off. Am I a Bad hunter because I didn't realize this was a 6 point? I don't think so. I figure the deer was ATLEAST 4 years old so did I take a young buck? Was my shot unethical? The deer in my area don't get big racks, not enough nutrients in the area. So if there were an antler restriction in my area I quess except for a few deer(very few) there wouldn't be any taken. Antler restrictions might work in someplaces, but it will not solve all the problems. I think that some people are more worried about getting a trophy instead of worrying about whats happening to hunting. The real reason people want antler restrictions is so that it will better there chances of a trophy in years to come. I'm not saying that anybodies reason for hunting is wrong, but why do we have to keep adding laws to the hunt. Like I've said before I don't hunt for a big rack I have nothing to prove I hunt for meat. I only shoot mature deer that are of good size. the smallest deer I've taken still weighed 150# after being gutted if I get a big rack then yahoo good for me. Here's another question for you if you see a 12point standing next to an 8point both are easy shoots which one are you going to take??? One more thing the 12point weighs 175, and the 8 point weighs 250+. Now lets pretend it's the year 2030 and there is a new antler restriction you can only shoot deer with more then 9points. What I'm getting at is when is enough going to be enough and are we shooting the deer or are we shooting its rack.
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RE: Point Restrictions Isn't the answer....
i agree fullback im form PA also.. i still got one more year w/ a junior licensec but after that i hope i see soem buck.. but i do think it wil, help w/ big bucks.. but they didnt need to do that!
http://community.webshots.com/user/jimmymo32 |
RE: Point Restrictions Isn't the answer....
I think there area lot of very good and valid arguemnets on PA.'s management process in this forum. I am a PA deer hunter and unfortunately I'm usually surrounded by hunters on the first day. In the past i heard guys say if it don't have horns i won't shoot it! well great. but when these same guys go back to camp and guzzle there fair share of beer they won't have any bragging stories to tell anyone. so I think like with everything else in PA. it will take time for alot of guys to realize that they are just sitting in the woods cold, wet,( and usually hung over ) and nothing to shoe for it. I agree with who ever it was who said that there is to much emphasis put on the racks, personally i would rather take a doe than a scronnie buck of two or three points. if anyone is interested in what my freinds and i think is the best vension recipe e-mail me at [email protected] I'll be glad to share mine with you and would appreciate it if you told me what you thought. good luck boys and GOD BLESS AMERICA!!!!!!!!!
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RE: Point Restrictions Isn't the answer....
i think if they would lower the number of bucks you can take hunters might start being more selective on the bucks they shoot.in oklahoma you can shoot three bucks.to many hunters shoot the first two bucks they before black powder and gun season starts now they want to be selective,lower the number and maybe they will hold out for agood buck and not all the spikes i seen dagged out of the public area early in the season .i got two does early then one eight point after black powder and one eleven point in late december.ive hunted this area for 7 years so i know to wait for the rutting season to see the bigger boys plusi got one more doe in early jan.
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RE: Point Restrictions Isn't the answer....
I agree that point restrictions aren't the answer - the best answer to protect yearling bucks, where that is the goal, is to only allow the harvest of bucks whose antlers extend beyond their ears. This will protect virtually all yearling bucks. Many of the bigger yearlings are 7 or 8 pointers & these are the very bucks you want to "graduate" to next years class, yet point restrictions don't protect them.
You will always have the slob hunters who will shoot first, hoping the deer is big enough, then leave the deer laying after they see that it is too small. Don't expect this kind of person to take responsiblity for their actions. If a hunter can't be certain of his or her target, they shouldn't take the shot! The bottom line is if you want to improve the age class of bucks, the best antler restrictions is width of the rack, not point restriction. If you want a more balanced buck to doe ratio, a liberal doe harvest along with allowing the harvest of only one buck per year is the way to do that. |
RE: Point Restrictions Isn't the answer....
PEOPLE, the PGC isn't trying to make Pennsylvania a "big buck state" like Iowa, Illinois, Texas, or Kansas. They are simply using big racks to get there plans through.
Okay, lets do this. You have 100 deer and with Pennsylvanias buck to doe ratio, we have probablly 80 doe and 20 bucks. Now, on an average season, 40 does are taken and 10 bucks. That takes you down to 40 doe and 10 bucks. A buck to doe ratio of 4 doe for each buck after seaon (not nearly as bad as what actually occurs in Pennsylvania, but this is just a demonstration). Now, they reproduce and we are back to 100 deer. Same buck to doe ration, 80 does and 20 bucks. Now, this season we have antler restrictions. We will say that 50% of the bucks are not legal so the PGC ups the doe tags. This years harvest is 55 does and 5 bucks. That takes us down to 45 does and 15 bucks (a buck to doe ratio of 3 doe to each buck). Another year of reproduction and we are up to a total of 90 deer. Of these 90 deer, 60 are doe and 30 are bucks. Now, 35 does are killed and 10 bucks are killed. That puts the total to 25 does and 20 bucks. That is a buck to doe ratio of 1.5 doe for each buck. Sure, there are less deer (over the grand scale in Pa, its not going to be very noticeable), but, that is more nutrients and food for each deer. That means healthier, older, and in the long run, larger racked deer. Also, this statement of "hunters are leaving deer lay in the woods" is getting WAY blown out of proportion. Think about it. A guy goes in the woods and see 20 other hunters. Of these 20, 1 was a slob hunter. Now, this guy goes home and talks to his buddies, is he going to talk about how he saw 19 ethical hunters, or is he just going to mention that one bad seed? If we only looked at the bad seeds in Pennsylvania, we would be looking at a small small small portion of the hunters. Ethical hunters don't "shock" other hunters as much so they don't really every talk about "the ethical hunter who passed up a sub-legal buck" All they ever talk about is the bad seed. I saw 1 deer laying dead this year. That is it. I hunted over 1,000 acres of land that is privately owned but open to all hunters and out of those 1,000 acres, I found one dead buck laying in the woods. Also, think about the safety that is now in the woods. This year I wasn't constantly thinking about "that guy in the woods" who sees a deer and just starts shooting like a mad man. 90% of the guys in Pa were following the rules and this meant that they must identify their target instead of just blasting shots off. Give it time. These plans will work. I am willing to see a few less doe each season to see a couple more bucks. Pennsylvania has potential to be a great state for hunting. We have lots of good farmlands and thick woods. We have a large deer herd to work with, but, in order to get our herd right, we have to take more does out and pass on smaller bucks. I constantly here people whinning about "Pennsylvania has no big bucks", but yet when it comes to passing up that little 6 pointer, the thought never crosses their mind, they just shoot it. Anyone see a contradiction here? My family, best friend, and I have been harvesting as many doe as we can each year and passing on smaller bucks for several years and it is showing. We have alot of potential around my hunting grounds. Huge fields of corn/alfalfa/clover. The woods are full of oaks that produce lots of acorns. There is really thick cover, a pond that is on the edge of woods where thick bedding is (a place were deer are comfortable enough to go get a drink), ect.... We have been letting the small bucks pass. I see more big bucks in Pennsylvania than some people see in Texas, Kansas, Iown, Illinois, Alberta, ect.. each year. This year I saw lots of bucks, only a few real brutes while hunting (The Ghost Buck- an absolute monster 11 point that would score in the 150" range), and a 10 point that would score in the mid 130" range. While spotting before archery season I would see 4 8 points in a field every night, and they all would have went 130" or up. The biggest probablly in the 160" range. The moral of the story is......... SHOOT MORE DOE AND LET THE LITTLE BUCKS PASS!!! P.S. How come we have meat hunters out there that say they don't care about antlers, but yet, when a group of 5 mature doe and 1 spike comes out, the meat hunter will shoot the smaller bodied spike? Thats alittle more contradiction. Good Luck This Season: Buck Magnet  Check out my hunting PICS here http://community.webshots.com/user/buckmagnet |
RE: Point Restrictions Isn't the answer....
bump
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RE: Point Restrictions Isn't the answer....
BM , I dont know any meat hunter who would shoot a spike over a nice doe! At least your right on about one thing , for the PGC it's not about growing trophy deer , it's about drastically reducing the herd by forcing hunters to shoot does instead of young bucks.
BBB , Why the bump?  >>>---Doug---> |
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