Multi-owner deer camp/hunting property; anyone doing it?
04-30-2007, 03:30 PM
#1
Spike
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Michigander in MA
Posts: 88
Multi-owner deer camp/hunting property; anyone doing it?
As of mid-May 2007, my buddy and I will be losing our hunting area in northern MI. It is his parents' property and they must sell so we are forced to find another area, either private or public. We're not thrilledabout hunting on public land. This is sad since this is where I first learned to hunt and it is near my family's cabin, so it was the ideal get-away for a couple guys to go hunting for a few days. Fortunately, we aren't totally up a creek. Another good buddy and deer hunting companion to both of us has his family'sfarm near Lansing, MI.......but again, this is his grandparents'property and they won't be around much longer. It is unsaid as to what will happen to the farm since my buddy is the grandson and there are 3 sons (couple of which make life difficult for the family). If something has been said, it's only verbal, nothing on paper.
So I have voiced an interest in going in together and buying landin MI that would be OURS!I have no idea what would be involved other than the 3 of us may have to form a LLC, so it would be 1 entity buying the land, not 3. All of us are employed (we're 27-30 yrs. old) but none of us have enough money to do it alone, so it would have to be a group effort to be doable.
So, is there anyone here who is part of a multi-owner group for their deer hunting land? Can you comment on the good, the bad and the ugly aspects of it? Anyone who isn't in this position but can/would like to comment?
I could see it working very nicely as longas there aredocuments and agreements made prior to going into it, and everyone respects and abides to those agreements. However, I could see bad things happening if friends can't come to an agreement on something with money and property involved (e.g. families get bigger and someone wants to cleartrees to putup a vacation cabin when others do not, someone wants to clear timber for extra cash when others want to see the land unmolested, someone's wife starts sticking her 2 cents in when it isn't welcomed, etc.)
At thispoint it's just a thought, but property is almost always agood investment and I don't want to end up not being able to hunt after many years of learning and coming to love the time outside and with friends.
Thanks!
So I have voiced an interest in going in together and buying landin MI that would be OURS!I have no idea what would be involved other than the 3 of us may have to form a LLC, so it would be 1 entity buying the land, not 3. All of us are employed (we're 27-30 yrs. old) but none of us have enough money to do it alone, so it would have to be a group effort to be doable.
So, is there anyone here who is part of a multi-owner group for their deer hunting land? Can you comment on the good, the bad and the ugly aspects of it? Anyone who isn't in this position but can/would like to comment?
I could see it working very nicely as longas there aredocuments and agreements made prior to going into it, and everyone respects and abides to those agreements. However, I could see bad things happening if friends can't come to an agreement on something with money and property involved (e.g. families get bigger and someone wants to cleartrees to putup a vacation cabin when others do not, someone wants to clear timber for extra cash when others want to see the land unmolested, someone's wife starts sticking her 2 cents in when it isn't welcomed, etc.)
At thispoint it's just a thought, but property is almost always agood investment and I don't want to end up not being able to hunt after many years of learning and coming to love the time outside and with friends.
Thanks!
04-30-2007, 07:56 PM
#2
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location:
Posts: 1,118
RE: Multi-owner deer camp/hunting property; anyone doing it?
zuren, I am the president of a corporation just like you plan to create. I bought into this club 4 or 5 years after it was established. So I wasnt around during the creation but I have a very good insight of what you need to form a long-lasting enojoyable "hunting club." I think they are a great tool for the person who cannot afford yet buy his own large piece of land, for hunting and and investment. Send me a PM i'll get into the logistics.
04-30-2007, 08:27 PM
#3
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Ponce de Leon Florida USA
Posts: 10,079
RE: Multi-owner deer camp/hunting property; anyone doing it?
Property is an excellent investment. The only problem is although it will appreciate in value, unless you sell it you won't realize a financial return. Looking at other similar like 178 has is a good idea. All of you need to take time and write down all potential problems you can think of that might arise and discuss them. Having a lawyer do the final paperwork is a must and if you could find a lawyer that had prepared similar papers would be a plus.
04-30-2007, 09:05 PM
#4
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location:
Posts: 1,314
RE: Multi-owner deer camp/hunting property; anyone doing it?
I know your pain but I have to say DON'T DO IT!!!!!!!!! I have some property with a partner and the first 30 years was good and now its has ended our friendship and caused nothing but problems I can't tell you how bad this has turned out. Now its in the courts!! I never thought this would happen between two friends like us but time sure can change people and cause greed like you woulden't belive. The best way to do it if you are talking about a big peice break it up and each own your own. Please take my advice.
04-30-2007, 09:48 PM
#5
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 321
RE: Multi-owner deer camp/hunting property; anyone doing it?
A company I worked for had one owner, when I was in a auto accident 18 years ago. The owner of the company told me not to worry. When I was able I could return to my previous employment with no problems.
When I was better, I inquired about my old job andhis son told me that they had to downsize and that my position was eliminated.
A year later they hired 8 people. The owner of the company told his son that I should have been the first one called back - since he promised mein the hospital - in intensive care,that my position with the company was secure.
You know the son's response. It starts with a f and ends with a kem'.
4 Years later I got a lead on a small piece of property.
68 acres that my dad and my grandfather and my Uncle used for access to the Game Lands for many years.
As a matter of a fact, the owner of the company I worked for was a member of our church and my dad introduced him to the owners of the property and got him permission to use the road to get into our hunting spot and showed him where we hunted and invited him to hunt with us.
Well the owner of the company went to the owner of the property and made a deal to buy his property. I had done some work for the man that owned the property and he knew my intentions -that if he wanted to sell that I was interested.
But money talks and bullchit walks.
They bought the property and thefarm houseand turned it into a nice camp.
8 bedrooms and a nice kitchen and dining room.
They started out with 12 members -who all had a full share into the property.
I approched them to see if we could still use the road to get into our hunting spot.
The man that was the son of the owner of the company I worked for told me that I was welcome to walk up the steep hill - but I was not allowed to drive up the hill.
They paid for it and it was theirs now and they didn't want people that didn't put up any money to have the same access that they did.
Well - he was also the self appointed president of their camp.
Along with the president of the company - that his father had just gave to him to run as he pleased.
One by one the members quit, some because of all the money that he asked for per a year to do improvements to the camp and property. Some just because of all the silly rules that he made.
Then one man said that his wife wanted to come to camp - and Mr. President told him that it was men only. It ended up in a fist fight and the police was involved and a couple of people were arrested.
Good upstanding Catholics and local buisnessmen sitting in the pokey with drunks and dope addicts.
The man that origionally owned the company I worked for quit going to the camp all together - and he was the person that put up all ofthe money to buy the camp.
They put it to a vote and it was decided to sell the camp - after just5 years of ownership.
They advertised it for $120,000 - even though they only paid $68,000 for it 5 years before.
Guess who bought it?
One of the State Policemen that came when they were called to break upthe fist fight.
Other senerio is our hunting camp that was owned by my mom's brother in law and her sister.
My dad lived to go to camp. He spent 100's of hours a year up at camp trimming the trees and fixing the road and repairing the house - camp and buying the coal and the propane out of his own pocket, cutting 7 acres of grass every two weeks with push mowers and brush hogs and my riding tractor. My dad broke my tractor several times and I had to pay the repair bills out of my own pocket. My dad paid for all the fuel.
My dad even filled up a 55 gallon drum with gasoline one time and my Uncle siphoned it out and put it in his truck.
My dad cut firewood for the camp and my Uncle loaded it into his truck and took it home and burned it in his fireplace to suppliment his heating bill.
My Uncle paid the taxes and not much of anything else.
Then the roof started to leak and he refused to fix it.
My dad only ever made $24,000 a year on the best years he ever worked - and he was a expert mechanic - certified aircraft mechanic - Airframes and Power Plants, also a Journeyman Machinist and a Carpenter, Electrician and plumber - millwright.
My dad worked 25 years at a local carbon plant until it closed and then 17 more years at the machine shop. He was no dummy or lazy.
My Uncle worked for ARMCO steel near Ambridge and made $50,000 a year back in the 70's. He just drank and gambled and never seem'd to have any money.
My Uncle toldour familythat if we paid for the materials and also put the roof onourselves that we could keep on using the camp.
Now back at my dad's house, just3 miles away - my moms house is falling down and her own roof leaked and nothing was getting done to her house because my dad was always up at camp fixing things up there.
So we proposed to him that if he paid for the materials, we would provide the labor.
My Uncle got mad and had the camp appraised and was told that they could get $120,000 out of it.
106 acres and a shell of a house. The wood for the house came from a old house that his brothers and his dad tore down back in 1958 and they only had $600 into the building materials and the land.
My Uncle had sold the timber on the property just 5 years before and got $100,000 out of the timber and never put a penny back into the camp.
Never gave my dad a penny for all his hard work.
My Unclesaw dollar signs in his eyes and thought that he was going to make a mint. Only when people came up to look at it, all they saw was a dirtroad 7/10ths of a mile long that had to be maintained and a house that did not even have sheetrock on the walls, just the bare insulation, or anything on the ceilings.You could see the bare boards on the roof and the rafters while laying in bed or sitting on the couch or eating at the dining room table.
Several of the camp members offered him $68,000 for the campand he refused to sell to them or to me and he ended up selling it to a local buisnessman for $68,000.
Now there are hard feelings and none of the previous camp members ever calls my dad's house anymore and none of them comes up to hunt anymore and dad and my Uncle Rich isn't talking no more and he won't even speak to me after the falling out we had when we took our belongings out of the camp when he sold it - the new owners were pee'd off at my dad n me because they thought that they bought it turn key.
Only when we took what we bought out - there was nothing left.
My Uncle went so far as to call us on the phone and tell us to bring our stuff back or he was going to prosecute.
The new owners of the camp confronted me and my brother the second day of deer season thatyearto tell us that we were not welcome on their property - and took our locks off the neighboring property's gate. Even though my Uncle never had a right of way to use that gate.
I just had a call the other day from the owner of the neighboring property asking me why(his - our)lock didnt work anymore.
I told him because the new ownersdid something to it again.
That was the 8th time I had to replace( his -our) lock in 6 years.
My advice is for you to save your money and buy your own camp and invite who ever you want to your camp and make your own rules and stick by them. Charge your buddies to come to your camp - and in the end you will be 1000 times better off than if you became part owner in a camp and had a falling out and lost what ever you invested - both in time and in money.
Watch Bonanza on TV,
Ben Cartwright is the man that owns the Ponderosa.
My buddy that owns a butchershop said it best.
The man that owns the land, makes the rules!
When I was better, I inquired about my old job andhis son told me that they had to downsize and that my position was eliminated.
A year later they hired 8 people. The owner of the company told his son that I should have been the first one called back - since he promised mein the hospital - in intensive care,that my position with the company was secure.
You know the son's response. It starts with a f and ends with a kem'.
4 Years later I got a lead on a small piece of property.
68 acres that my dad and my grandfather and my Uncle used for access to the Game Lands for many years.
As a matter of a fact, the owner of the company I worked for was a member of our church and my dad introduced him to the owners of the property and got him permission to use the road to get into our hunting spot and showed him where we hunted and invited him to hunt with us.
Well the owner of the company went to the owner of the property and made a deal to buy his property. I had done some work for the man that owned the property and he knew my intentions -that if he wanted to sell that I was interested.
But money talks and bullchit walks.
They bought the property and thefarm houseand turned it into a nice camp.
8 bedrooms and a nice kitchen and dining room.
They started out with 12 members -who all had a full share into the property.
I approched them to see if we could still use the road to get into our hunting spot.
The man that was the son of the owner of the company I worked for told me that I was welcome to walk up the steep hill - but I was not allowed to drive up the hill.
They paid for it and it was theirs now and they didn't want people that didn't put up any money to have the same access that they did.
Well - he was also the self appointed president of their camp.
Along with the president of the company - that his father had just gave to him to run as he pleased.
One by one the members quit, some because of all the money that he asked for per a year to do improvements to the camp and property. Some just because of all the silly rules that he made.
Then one man said that his wife wanted to come to camp - and Mr. President told him that it was men only. It ended up in a fist fight and the police was involved and a couple of people were arrested.
Good upstanding Catholics and local buisnessmen sitting in the pokey with drunks and dope addicts.
The man that origionally owned the company I worked for quit going to the camp all together - and he was the person that put up all ofthe money to buy the camp.
They put it to a vote and it was decided to sell the camp - after just5 years of ownership.
They advertised it for $120,000 - even though they only paid $68,000 for it 5 years before.
Guess who bought it?
One of the State Policemen that came when they were called to break upthe fist fight.
Other senerio is our hunting camp that was owned by my mom's brother in law and her sister.
My dad lived to go to camp. He spent 100's of hours a year up at camp trimming the trees and fixing the road and repairing the house - camp and buying the coal and the propane out of his own pocket, cutting 7 acres of grass every two weeks with push mowers and brush hogs and my riding tractor. My dad broke my tractor several times and I had to pay the repair bills out of my own pocket. My dad paid for all the fuel.
My dad even filled up a 55 gallon drum with gasoline one time and my Uncle siphoned it out and put it in his truck.
My dad cut firewood for the camp and my Uncle loaded it into his truck and took it home and burned it in his fireplace to suppliment his heating bill.
My Uncle paid the taxes and not much of anything else.
Then the roof started to leak and he refused to fix it.
My dad only ever made $24,000 a year on the best years he ever worked - and he was a expert mechanic - certified aircraft mechanic - Airframes and Power Plants, also a Journeyman Machinist and a Carpenter, Electrician and plumber - millwright.
My dad worked 25 years at a local carbon plant until it closed and then 17 more years at the machine shop. He was no dummy or lazy.
My Uncle worked for ARMCO steel near Ambridge and made $50,000 a year back in the 70's. He just drank and gambled and never seem'd to have any money.
My Uncle toldour familythat if we paid for the materials and also put the roof onourselves that we could keep on using the camp.
Now back at my dad's house, just3 miles away - my moms house is falling down and her own roof leaked and nothing was getting done to her house because my dad was always up at camp fixing things up there.
So we proposed to him that if he paid for the materials, we would provide the labor.
My Uncle got mad and had the camp appraised and was told that they could get $120,000 out of it.
106 acres and a shell of a house. The wood for the house came from a old house that his brothers and his dad tore down back in 1958 and they only had $600 into the building materials and the land.
My Uncle had sold the timber on the property just 5 years before and got $100,000 out of the timber and never put a penny back into the camp.
Never gave my dad a penny for all his hard work.
My Unclesaw dollar signs in his eyes and thought that he was going to make a mint. Only when people came up to look at it, all they saw was a dirtroad 7/10ths of a mile long that had to be maintained and a house that did not even have sheetrock on the walls, just the bare insulation, or anything on the ceilings.You could see the bare boards on the roof and the rafters while laying in bed or sitting on the couch or eating at the dining room table.
Several of the camp members offered him $68,000 for the campand he refused to sell to them or to me and he ended up selling it to a local buisnessman for $68,000.
Now there are hard feelings and none of the previous camp members ever calls my dad's house anymore and none of them comes up to hunt anymore and dad and my Uncle Rich isn't talking no more and he won't even speak to me after the falling out we had when we took our belongings out of the camp when he sold it - the new owners were pee'd off at my dad n me because they thought that they bought it turn key.
Only when we took what we bought out - there was nothing left.
My Uncle went so far as to call us on the phone and tell us to bring our stuff back or he was going to prosecute.
The new owners of the camp confronted me and my brother the second day of deer season thatyearto tell us that we were not welcome on their property - and took our locks off the neighboring property's gate. Even though my Uncle never had a right of way to use that gate.
I just had a call the other day from the owner of the neighboring property asking me why(his - our)lock didnt work anymore.
I told him because the new ownersdid something to it again.
That was the 8th time I had to replace( his -our) lock in 6 years.
My advice is for you to save your money and buy your own camp and invite who ever you want to your camp and make your own rules and stick by them. Charge your buddies to come to your camp - and in the end you will be 1000 times better off than if you became part owner in a camp and had a falling out and lost what ever you invested - both in time and in money.
Watch Bonanza on TV,
Ben Cartwright is the man that owns the Ponderosa.
My buddy that owns a butchershop said it best.
The man that owns the land, makes the rules!
05-01-2007, 07:05 AM
#6
Dominant Buck
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: On an Island in Vermont
Posts: 22,605
RE: Multi-owner deer camp/hunting property; anyone doing it?
I agree. Best to try and buy it alone. Camps with multi owners are trouble. I have a buddy who went in with 6 other guys and was the driving force in all the work days and put far more into the camp than they did. One of the owners got greedy and wanted to sell to make a profit and got a majority of the other owners to do the same. They had to sell the camp and now he is without a camp and sorry he ever bought in with them and they were all best friends then and not so now. On a side note they refused to let him buy them out saying the price was too low.
05-01-2007, 08:58 AM
#7
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Southwest Ohio
Posts: 10,277
RE: Multi-owner deer camp/hunting property; anyone doing it?
I have flirted with the idea of doing this, but would only do it if there was a formal, well laid out, and binding agreement drawn up by a lawyer.
05-01-2007, 09:17 AM
#8
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Comance county, OK
Posts: 11,408
RE: Multi-owner deer camp/hunting property; anyone doing it?
Camps with multiple owners are big trouble.A friendco-owned a piece of hunting property with a nice cabin. His partner was a high school classmate. It worked out well until the partners sons started making meth in the place. It caused a big fightand my friend forced a saleto prevent its possible confiscation in case of a drug bust.
05-01-2007, 11:17 AM
#9
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Rivesville, WV
Posts: 3,192
RE: Multi-owner deer camp/hunting property; anyone doing it?
I have been in this situation. Problems will occur at some time-either now, or down the raod.
We have two now-and here is how it works. And IMO it is a flawless operation:
You only need one CHIEF. Everyone else must be Indians. When they joinit must be stressed that they are Indians. They must realize that there are not two chiefs.
As chief you must let them know exactly what is expected of them.
As chief you must be fair, but you must also be firm.
You are going to have to be an axxhole every now and then. I you are not willing be an axxhole every now and then, THEN DO NOT DO IT.
If you establish a good relationship with your Indians-then it can be a blast. If you do not establish the right relationship-then it will be a nightmare.
I am an Indian in two different club's- and we have a blast. Our chief makes's thing clear(he is a lawyer). I know exactly what is expected of me every year.
My best advice I can give you is DO NOT do it with your best friend or friend's(unless they fully embrace the role of Indian). Tom.
We have two now-and here is how it works. And IMO it is a flawless operation:
You only need one CHIEF. Everyone else must be Indians. When they joinit must be stressed that they are Indians. They must realize that there are not two chiefs.
As chief you must let them know exactly what is expected of them.
As chief you must be fair, but you must also be firm.
You are going to have to be an axxhole every now and then. I you are not willing be an axxhole every now and then, THEN DO NOT DO IT.
If you establish a good relationship with your Indians-then it can be a blast. If you do not establish the right relationship-then it will be a nightmare.
I am an Indian in two different club's- and we have a blast. Our chief makes's thing clear(he is a lawyer). I know exactly what is expected of me every year.
My best advice I can give you is DO NOT do it with your best friend or friend's(unless they fully embrace the role of Indian). Tom.
05-01-2007, 12:18 PM
#10
Spike
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Michigander in MA
Posts: 88
RE: Multi-owner deer camp/hunting property; anyone doing it?
The vote seems to be pretty unaminous,don't do business with friends! I'm not terribly surprised by this but I guessI just needed to hear it from others with experience.
The other and probably most viable options areas follows:
- findproperty somewhere that is3 separate lots next to each other
- offer to buy one piece that the owner would splitinto 3 lots
- one of us buy1 larger lot then immediately split it into3 and sell two tothe otherfriends
So I'm going to continue toresearch how this couldhappen. Thanks for the feedback so far!
The other and probably most viable options areas follows:
- findproperty somewhere that is3 separate lots next to each other
- offer to buy one piece that the owner would splitinto 3 lots
- one of us buy1 larger lot then immediately split it into3 and sell two tothe otherfriends
So I'm going to continue toresearch how this couldhappen. Thanks for the feedback so far!