zrexpilot

Abullet or arrow to the spine will drop an animal instantly, nothing magical about a spine shot. A high shoulder shot is nothing more than a spine shot.
And bullets do not kill by energy. That is a big myth.Bullets actually dont have much more energy than a 100 mph fastball.
If you dont believe me take a phone book and stand it on end and shoot it with your favorite caliber and tell me what happens.
Take a small 2x4 and stand it on end and shoot it with a high powered rifle, it probably wont even knock it over.
You cant tell me thats 2000 ft/lbs of energy at work.

Rebel Hog

I believe in reducing the bullet wieght and increasing the veloscity will give youa better killthan a heavy bulletwith aslower veloscity will.

zrexpilot

Me too, but youaint gonna convince a lot of people here on the falacy of bullet energy.

Paul L Mohr

I agree with you to a point, but the high powered rifles with better bullet designs do a much better job of transferring the energy. They are much more devastating. I don't hunt phone books, so I don't care what a bullet does to them. A phone book or 2x4 will not demonstrate hydrostatic shock. Do the same test with a gallon jug filled with water or jello and see what happens.

I will agree that I don't see where bullets have the energy numbers hey list, but high velocity rifles with the correct bullets transfer what energy they do have much better and are more effective. If you were shooting FMJ rounds I would agree to a point.

Shoot a woodchuck with a bow and then shoot one with high powered rifle and a properly designed bullet. The rifle will blow it apart and throw it three feet away. My 17HMR will blow a small animal apart, let me see you do that with a fast ball. If rifles don't utilize energy transfer why do bullet companies spend thousands of dollars designing controlled expansion bullets? Or offering different types of bullets for different game?

And spine shooting a deer with a low powered firearm or a bow will not kill it. It will only paralize it until you can finnish it off. And it's not a pretty sight. A high powered rifle in the vitals will incapacitate a deer. Arrows do not work off energy transfer, centerfire rifles do. However a .410 does not have the velocity or energy to do that.

Paul

Rebel Hog

Paul, I haveno desire of arguing this point with youpartner!
If you pick a lightbullet with the proper construction and and it's expandtion ratio for the velosity, you don't need a hand cannon to do the job! I have had just about every caliber made over the years and settled on the 6.5mmSwedeand have taken Moose in Canada with it.
It's every persons prerogative to think and use whatever caliber they choose, but as long as I keep my freezer full Ican care less.


FAQ for Kinetic Pulse and Ballistics
QUESTION: How does the 6.5X55mm compare with other calibres for actual
hunting performance?
ANSWER: My experience is with a modern rifle chambered for 6.5X55mm swedish
it appears to do anything the 270 winchester will do. Impact tests in clay
however indicates the 6.5X55 will penitrate deeper and then 'explode' more
than the 270 win. One deer I have taken at 400 yards shows that the 6.5X55mm
140 gr nosler will pass through the deer and bury 6 inches in to the bank of
dirt behind. Excessive meat damage was noted. This load was a duplex load
muzzle velocity was 2850 ft/s. My experience would be to stay with factory
pressures for deer to save meat. Larger game such as Elk is possible, and
the superb accuracy makes for sure kill placement on Elk. My neighbor who
hunts three states says the 6.5X55mm swedish is superior to the 270 winchester
in his actual hunting experiences.

Bionicrooster

Thats the point i was trying to make, thanks! Arrows work by causing sever blood loss, and therefor oxygen loss, and whiel a 410 will do the same thing, it will not do it as efficiently (otherwise we would use field points, right?).

Paul L Mohr

I agree with you. It is not that a particular round has a lot of energy, but rather how the projectile transfers that energy. A high velocity fast expanding bullet does not kill the same way a slower heavier bullet does, or an arrow. I think it has more to do with how the energy is radiated as the bullet travels thru the tissue.

Here an excerpt from an article called "Shooting Holes in Wounding Theories: the mechanics of terminnal ballistics"

"In the case of hemorrhage resulting from damage to the lungs or arteries, brain death will likely occur prior to cessatation of cardiac function; the time required for brain functions to deteriorate to the point of unconsciousness depending on the rate of hemorrhage. However, when dmage is done directly to the heart, the circulatory function may be arrested first, leading to unconsciousness within a few seconds. There is another mechanism of cardiac arrest that is less well understood but which may account for the nearly instantaneous death of game animals hit with modern weapons and that is induced cardiac fibrillation and arrest. The precise mechanism for the onset of the cardiac arrest is not fully understood, but its effect is well documented. It may involve some type of local neurological or humeral communication between the heart and lungs that gets short circuited. Alternatively, a violent wound to the lung tissue may create a tiny embolism that interrrupts cardio-pulmonary function at a critical moment."

I feel this is why a .243 youth rifle will drop a deer in its tracks when a 600 grn slug from a 12 gauge will not. Even though on paper the heavier slug has much more energy.

This also explains why it doesn't always happen.

All I know is after seeing deer shot with all types of weapons the centerfire is the most effective.

Paul

Rebel Hog

Ialso agree with this!

Paul L Mohr

I forgot to post a link to the article. This article is excellent at describing what both of us are saying. It even has links to other studies that show that half the deer shot in the study by a centerfire dropped within 3 yards, and the rest did not. While a centerfire may increase your chances, it doesn't gaurantee anything.

Its long, but an excellent read.

http://www.rathcoombe.net/sci-tech/ballistics/mechanics.html

Paul

JagMagMan

I will never understand why people insist on using less than adequate calibers for hunting deer!
Of the many poorer caliber cartridges we've discussed here, the .410 Shotgun has to be about the poorest!
Comparing bullets to broadheads, is truely comparing apples to oranges!
Yes, other than spine, or head shots, animals are killed mainly by blood/oxygen loss. That is where all comparison of bullets, and broadheads ends!
Compare the hearts of deer shot through with a sharp broadhead. You probably won't find much evidence of a "round" hole at all! You WILL find three very smooth, fine cuts, that sliced through!
Next, take a heart of a deer hit with 150 gr. .308! You probably won't find a whole lots of itleft at all! (sliced cutting, vs. energy transfer)

There are many other comparisions that you could use,.410 slug damagewill look, and act more like other bullets, compared to a broadhead. But I'd much rather 2000lbs. of flatter shooting energy, compared to a mere 600 lbs. of the .410!

The best example that I've seen of energy transfer, was a squirrel that I shot with a 150gr. .308 Winchester! It was sitting on top of a hanging, 5 gallon bucket. The bullet hit ONLY the squirrel, what remained was about five pieces of mangled squirrel, and the shock (energy transfer,) ripped the handle, and top competely off of the bucket! A broadhead would have sliced through the squirrel, leaving the bucket unharmed! I suspect that a .410 slug wouldn't have done much more damage than the braodhead.

I would suggest limiting .410 shots, to bow range, or much better yet, leave the .410 at home , and use a real deer caliber!