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Measuring Stick
I've been a part of another thread that has had lots of action on it concerning "Is bowhunting too hi-tech". After reading all the good bad and ugly I couldn't help but wonder where the traditional people stand so here goes:
1. To me traditional means a longbow or recurve, wooden arrows, re-sharpenable broadheads, no sights and of course a finger release. 2. With no other real way to compare accuracy levels I'll use 3D shoots. I feel no traditional shooter should shoot under 200 points while using the "hunter" stakes. Where does everybody else fall in line with this. Just curious. |
RE: Measuring Stick
I shoot a longbow and my arrows vary from aluminum to cedar to bamboo and I use Zwickey Eskimo 2 blade broadheads. I'm sure glad I'm not in the trad group. I hate to be catagorized. <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle> I also shoot an all wood laminated self bow with cedar and bamboo.
Your 200 score seems a little low to me. What percentage of the total points do you think a stick shooter should score? Also, the only 3D in our area that I can make it to is a mixed shoot. 42 targets, 2 arrows per and 22 total points per target. That's a 924 total score for the shoot. Oh, there are no trad or hunter stakes. Open and youth only which means we are shooting open stakes at targets from point blank to 80 yards. Most are from 40-55 yards. |
RE: Measuring Stick
longbowman, it seems "traditional" has become a catch phrase these days that I'm sure means very different things to different ppl. Does anyone know where, how, or even why the term originated? Seems like maybe a label invented to separate us from the wheel boys, & to tell the truth I'm not convinced the term even belongs in archery. But that's another topic altogether. Hehe. Anyhow, if I were to put a generic definition to it for my own purposes, it'd be something like: 'any archery tackle that doesn't make use of a mechanical device or advantage to draw, hold, or release an arrow'. As I say, everyone prolly has a little different take on this. As far as 3D scores go, I'd say that most average recurve or longbow shooters on an average 3D course SHOULD shoot an average score of over 200. There are lots of variables involved w/this assumtion tho, & I've known really good 3D shots that couldn't kill critters & vice versa. Plus there is the amount of experience of the archer, course difficulty, & countless other factors to consider. Wasn't it Howard Hill who said something about picking whether you wanted to be a target shooter or hunter, as both were almost totally unrelated? Something to that effect. I used to think that was bunk, but the longer I watch the more I see how true it can be. Please excuse my senseless ramblings, just my .02 worth. (but you asked for it) LOL!!
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RE: Measuring Stick
For me, Longbowman's definition of "Traditional" is a little too restrictive. It leaves out all the recurve shooters that choose to shoot carbon, aluminum, or fiberglass. It also ignores broadheads like Muzzy & Thunderhead with replaceable blades. As to 200 scores for 3D, there's just too many variables. What scoring system; IBO or ASA? What stakes; 30yrd, 25yrd, or something else? Marked or unmarked yardages? How many targets; 30, 40, or something else. How many arrows per target; 1 or 2? I do know there are mighty few members of my club that would shoot a 200 on a 30 target IBO course with 10, 8, 5 scoring at 30yrds max, one arrow per target. Joel Powell, who was a past IBO Longbow Champion, but unfortunately died last fall, once told me that to be competitive at IBO shoots he felt you had to be able to shoot at least 50% under their rules.
Jack Edited by - Floxter on 01/22/2002 16:07:30 |
RE: Measuring Stick
200 points? What the heck does that have to do with accuracy? I have never shot a 200 in any 3-D shoot. First of all, each shoot is different. Some have long shots, some have obstacles in the way. Accuracy in a 3-D shoot is not the same as hunting. At my hunting range, I'll shoot much higher than 200. Anything less than all kills at your hunting range is unacceptable. This , to me, is the only measuring stick. Dick
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"Traditional" is a relative term. Basically it's following tradition, and what is traditional in my family may not be in yours, and new traditions are developed as time goes by. I like Arrowsmit's definition of our type of archery--"any archery tackle that doesn't make use of a mechanical device or advantage to draw, hold, or release an arrow", although I wouldn't hold it against anyone who, for some reason or the other, had to use some type of release. I prefer longbows and wooden arrows, and all of my broadheads are re-sharpenable, but I won't try to place those restrictions on others.
3-d scores are not a fair way to measure, as they vary so much from one place to another. Some of the shoots I go to the members go to great pains to make the shots realistic hunting shots, and some go to great pains to make the shots a great pain! Dick said it best there--"Anything less than all kills at your hunting range is unacceptable. " For one person that may be 30 yds, for others it may be 10. The difference comes in knowing your effective range, and sticking to it. Chad |
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great stuff yall...I think ya know where I stand as I pretty much dumped it 'over there' <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
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Longbowman-
What does your #2 mean? "No traditional shooter should shoot under 200 points from the hunter stakes"?? For feeling good about going hunting? Does that mean carp or prairie dogs or bull elk? If they shoot under 200, do you not let them shoot any more? Take their bows away. Tell them to quit. You don't make any sense. It sounds like a clause in a new set of hunting regs, heaven forbid. I hope some deep breathin' granola head game department policy maker politician doesn't get any ideas....<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle> I'm pretty sure, although you didn't say so, that you meant that as level of competency for hunting purposes. I much prefer Dick4bows "nothing less than all kills at your hunting range", carp excepted. Tom |
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longbowman, seems like we all sorta jumped you on this. I think you were defending trad guys average proficiency & I for one, apologize for the "atmosphere" of my post. It certainly wasn't meant like it prolly reads. I just don't think there is a true "measuring stick" or that there is even a need for one. Dick said it very well, "Anything less than all kills at your hunting range is unacceptable." Some ppl will always overextend their limitations no matter their choice of equipment. See, ya can't change a guys heart w/tests, classes, measuring sticks etc & that's what it really boils down too IMO. Thanks for standing up for us longbowman!
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Longbowman,
I think I can agree with your first point, although I do shoot aluminum arrows as well as wood. As for point 2, I've never shot a 3-D shoot with trad gear. The last one I shot with a compound was probably 15 years ago. I poke holes in 2 targets in my backyard at random distances. I shoot 1 shot groups. When I go out to shoot, after I step off the deck, I throw my arrow in the direction of the target. I go to it, pick it up and shoot. I then go to the target, pull out the arrow, turn around and throw it again. I go to the arrow pick it up and shoot it. I then repeat the process. I shoot unknown ranges that vary from 5 to 21 or 22 paces. I've found this method has helped me to focus and to develop my instinctive shooting skills. I'm looking forward to seeing how it works on my Fox longbow when it gets here. Arrowsmit shipped it yesterday! Thanks Vic! What is my maximum distance in the field, 17 or 18 yards and preferably 15 yards or less. Bill |
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Yep, I got the same impression and didn't mean mine to come across that way at all.
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I usually tell people I am a recurve shooter, but I commonly call it traditional archery. I use all types of arrows and I think can all be catorigized in traditional archery. One doesn't offer a very distinct advantage over the other. I think that alot of people think of their traditional equipment as inferior, so therefore a better challenge. Traditional archery is harder, not because it is inferior, but because it takes more work on our part. A shooting machine could shoot a Recurve or longbow quite accurately, I bet. A wood bow is not like a bent arrow. A bent arrow won't shoot well no matter who shoots it or if it is shot out of whatever. A woodbow is as accurate as the person holding it. Do the arrows matter? I can't shoot more accurately than a good wood arrow, so why would aluminums or carbons give me any better of an advantage?
Ohh....and I got a cool wool felt borsalino hat for $8. That is traditional all the way...lol. It has scotchgaurd...it that still traditional? |
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I think that the traditional tag is an over used label. As said, your traditions might be different from mine. Personally I view myself as a hunting archer that prefers to use recurves and longbows. I also prefer feather fletched carbon arrows tipped with 2 blade Zwickey heads, I like the traditional flemish twist string but with the whizzy new string leeches. I shoot off the shelf with a glove or tab.
Obviously this excludes me from a narrow definition of a trad archer. But I'm also continuing the family tradition of passing along a love of archery to my kids, as passed down to me by my grandmother and my mom (I'll bet that's a different path than most people!) So where does this place me in the alleged controversy? Not that I'll lose any sleep over it. Perhaps my main hunting buddy, who happens to shoot a compound, has it right when he calls me the "New Age Trad Man" :) As to accuracy; conscience is the best measuring stick for hunting, personal satisfaction on the 3-D round- at least until foam drags itself off into the bush to die...<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle> RC |
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Hey Tuff, how long do the string leeches last? The SVL Limbsavers work great, & I've thought of trying the leeches, but heard they weren't very durable?
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Arrow,
My string ate the first batch in about 3 months, but I then put a small piece of aquarium air tubing on the part where they go through the string and they've been on almost a year now and still look in good condition. RC |
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" 1. To me traditional means a longbow or recurve, wooden arrows, re-sharpenable broadheads, no sights and of course a finger release."
Can you take it farther ? No laminated bows, no glued on feathers or sealed shafts, flint heads ? " 2. With no other real way to compare accuracy levels I'll use 3D shoots. I feel no traditional shooter should shoot under 200 points while using the "hunter" stakes." Been YEARS since I shot a course - I will this spring then I can answer the question better. But I don't shoot any farther than 20 yards normally, and I bet a 200 score would be quite easy for me in "Stealthycat's Range". Tradional means, to me, shooting a recurve of a longbow no sight and no releases. Thats 99% of the difference I think. Your arrows, broadheads, clothing, gear etc will in no seperate you from compound hunters, only your bow and the way you shoot it. Wood arrows are great, but they got flaws and are hard to get if you need 'em fast. Carbon is tough and nice, but aluminum is more available and actually, in my setup , shoots better. Any broadhead anymore is good, cut on impacts are best for low KE setups - ie longbows and recurves. I suppose a 65 lb Hunter II pushing a 550 grain arrow tipped with a 3 blade Muzzy would take about anything in North America, no problems. |
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LBR, Thank you for your input. I guess I didn't explain myself well enough as to what I was looking for in my question. I really don't care what anybody thinks of my definition of Traditional, I just wondered what everbody else's was. Since "they" started it though I have to respond to all the ones saying they don't want to be categorized and that the term traditional is a catch phrase. I was a bowhunter before there was such a thing as traditional. The compound wasn't allowed yet. I still consider myself just a bowhunter. I guess I have to say if you really think traditional is too restraining then how did you see my question in the first place...this is a "traditional" thread!
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<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
LBR, Thank you for your input. I guess I didn't explain myself well enough as to what I was looking for in my question. I really don't care what anybody thinks of my definition of Traditional, I just wondered what everbody else's was. Since "they" started it though I have to respond to all the ones saying they don't want to be categorized and that the term traditional is a catch phrase. I was a bowhunter before there was such a thing as traditional. The compound wasn't allowed yet. I still consider myself just a bowhunter. I guess I have to say if you really think traditional is too restraining then how did you see my question in the first place...this is a "traditional" thread! <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote> Longbowman, I don't believe any of the responses said "traditional" is too restraining. What I read themn saying is your definition of traditional is too restraining. If you really want to get into a heated debate on traditional, locate some of the folks who insist upon "primitive" traditional equipment. Whooooeeee, you want to talk narrow definition! If you didn't cut the stick, make it yourself, and make your string out of non-manmade materials, didn't make your own braodheads from stone and tie them to the straight stick you cut, etc., you are not traditional, in their perspective. Bottom line, it is all a matter of personal preference! Bill |
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Pardon me. I thought Longbowman was asking for our definitions. As I have stated in the pasy, Archery is Archery. It's just personal choice for the equipment. How about an AtlAtl? Dick
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Longbowman (gotta' love that handle<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>), I think a lot of the responses look much more harsh than they were meant to be. This blasted screen doesn't let you see the smile and wink that you would see in a face-to-face conversation. Also, many of us have had to be ready to defend dang near anything we said on another site, where if you have an opinion of your own you are likely to get bashed, and that habit can be hard to break.
Getting back to the original question, at one of the local tournaments I shoot at, a score of 200 is well above average, and honestly I don't always break 200 on it. This is a 28 target course, scores of 5,8,10, and 12. Distances range from 15 (rare) to 35+ yds. Lots of up and down hill shots, and across ditches and gulleys. Lots of shots between and/or beside trees, through brush, and some that require leaning or sqatting or some other unnatural position. Needless to say, there are usually very few shots I would attempt on a live animal, but it sure is a challenging course! If everyone was required to shoot a 200 or better on this course before they could go hunting, the woods wouldn't have many hunters around here. I think I understand the point you were making though--there are some folks that, in my opinion, just don't have any bussiness in the woods with a traditional bow. Of course, I have seen the same with compound bows, shotguns, and rifles. You have to know your limits, and stick with them. Ok, I'm getting off topic again. For #1, I don't really have a cut-and-dried answer. When I see a recurve with an aluminum riser that is something like 35# pull and the guy is shooting broomstraw arrows, "traditional" is not the first thing that pops into my head, regardless if it is in accordance to the tournament rules or not. I'm not really sure why--there was as much or more technology applied to the making of my longbows with their fiberglass lams, micarta tips, and Dynaflight strings. I think I already covered #2--lol. It would be great if there was some kind of fair and accurate way to keep slobs out of the woods, but I don't have an answer. The best thing we can do is set the example, and hopefully others will follow. Done rambling for now. Chad Long Bows Rule! |
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Once again, thank you to those who haven't beat me with your old bowstring. I was just asking and really don't want a reaction to my definition. I'm too old to really care what people think of me but I do like hearing what standards others set for themselves and the sport I've pretty much dedicated my life to for 40 yrs. now. I give bowhunting seminars, teach "barebow shooting" (Since you can't teach instincts) and speak a scouts, schools and church groups on hunting with the bow. I never preach equipment since I don't believe the average person should attempt to shoot at living game with traditional equipment until they reach a certain level of competancy and it's much easier to hit that level with a compound and sights. I've shot with some of the most well known people in the business and have to say a bunch of them aren't what I call "excellent" shots but they all know their limitations and stick to them. I honestly just wanted to know what others use as their definition of traditional since they chose the non-compound route for some reason. ( I'm really bleeding here!)
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Traditional is a word that lumps together a whole bunch of different people from a bunch of different backgrouds, their equipment and hunting methods and gets thrown about way too much. I'm a bowhunter that happens to carry a longbow afield and shoots a variety of arrows from it.
I also have to go along with Dick that anything less than 100% clean kills on big game at our chosen and limited hunting range is not acceptable. |
RE: Measuring Stick
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
I've been a part of another thread that has had lots of action on it concerning "Is bowhunting too hi-tech". After reading all the good bad and ugly I couldn't help but wonder where the traditional people stand so here goes: 1. To me traditional means a longbow or recurve, wooden arrows, re-sharpenable broadheads, no sights and of course a finger release. 2. With no other real way to compare accuracy levels I'll use 3D shoots. I feel no traditional shooter should shoot under 200 points while using the "hunter" stakes. Where does everybody else fall in line with this. Just curious. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>To me Traditional archery or hunting is the way a person thinks , feels ,and acts when afield reguardless of the equipment used. Equipment is just that, whatever tripps you trigger. As far as 200 being a measuring stick I feel it is a personal thing. If you know your limits and you hit the kill on all your shots inside your limits, then your have shot 100%. The total score for shoot is 125 but you hit the kill on all the shots inside your limits, is this worse than 20 5's[wound shoots] and 10 tens? Just a few of my thoughts,Bill |
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Longbow,recurve out of any material,arrows of any type sights if you like.No mechanical release,no mechanical advantage built into bow (no let-off).I have never shot a trad. 3D but would like to.The decision to hunt is a personal one an archer must make. I feel that it is up to the man and his maker-not subject to anyone elses standards, just as it is when a shot at game presents it's self-only you can choose to attempt that shot-no one else makes that choice. Cam [8d]
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" I've shot with some of the most well known people in the business and have to say a bunch of them aren't what I call "excellent" shots but they all know their limitations and stick to them. "
OOOOOO, I'd like you to post some names :). Actually, I don't doubt it, as hunting becomes commercialized you're going to have that. Look at Bill Jordan - I aint impressed with his shooting ( that Waddell kid is another story ) but he's big time, and like you say, he knows his limitatioons. I wonder, like on the Jordan Team, how many deer are shot and lost every year ? |
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Longbowman,
Band-Aids on the way!! You did ask where everyone fell in line, guess you found out. I did throw a big smiley in my response. You were a victim of what my kids call 'the English teacher treatment' when you didn't really explain what the 200 pt. 3D measuring stick was for - but we all figured it was a hunting readiness standard. I didn't see where anyone got into questioning your integrity, ancestry, or motives much. Good thread, and I hope you heal soon. Tom |
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The problem with the original thought is that The "RINGS" 10 8 and 5 scores don't always represent agood hunting shot. When I shoot 3-d I I try to ignore the rings and make a killing shot! This usually depends on the angle of the animal.
I make most of my leather goods, fletch my own arrows and just started cresting, shoot alum off the shelf and as I get more proficient I try the nextstep. Some day I may make my own bow. I don't shoot Tradition with my checkmate per say and I think for me to define it will require a whole lot more thought on my behalf. Eric Edited by - gelarson on 01/26/2002 22:07:02 |
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It is intruiging that since this thread was first posted, I read a couple of magazine articles that would divide "traditional" into three classes. Those would be Primitive, Classic and Traditional.
Primitive - You have to cut and build everything yourself. Classic - You have to shoot bow designs that are from the 1900-1950s era. You must shoot wood arrows with sharp to the point broadheads from that era. Traditional - You shoot a bow made of wood, with any arrow and broadhead type you choose. I personally think these divisions serve to hurt traditional archery. To each his own! |
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Must be target shooters. They always want to seperate people. Hunters know what the heck they are.
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<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Must be target shooters. They always want to seperate people. Hunters know what the heck they are. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote> Mike, Actually they are hunters. Have you seen the Primitive Archery magazine? It is full of articles about the Primitive archer. How they make their bows, their arrows, their broadheads, how they tie their broadheads onto their shafts, etc. There will also usually be a story or two about how a hunt by a Primitive archer. The division of Classic and Traditional archery is contained in an article of the latest issue of TBM. All of the people referenced in the article are/were hunters. Bill |
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Shotgun Red,
I don't believe there is anyone on this board that would tell you that. But, there are groups that narrow their definition of trad to the point that, as I pointed out above, they have put themselves either in the Primitive group, or the Classic group, and then there's the rest of us. We are just folk who shoot traditional bows, with whatever type arrow and broadhead we choose. We also choose glove, tab or bare fingers, and some use elevated rests. It is a matter of personal preference. Bill |
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hehe, yeah Bill, kind of a tongue in cheek on my part (forgot the smiley face). <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
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Maybe "measuring sticks" are best used on oneself? Personally I don't expect, or want, or even CARE if someone chooses the same tackle that I prefer. One of my favorite 3D partners regularly competes w/a <<cough>> compound. Demanding similarity to the point of exclusion seems a little egotistical doesn't it?
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