Elitist attitude
02-27-2008, 01:49 PM
#91
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Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Obama made me join the NRA for 5 years !
Posts: 2,181
RE: Elitist attitude
Dnk If I had stroke of the pen, law of the land ? Hmmmm. I'd give traditonal archers a piece of the archery season, reserved totally for traditional bowhunters. Why ? Because its a totally different kind of hunting. Compounds and crossbows are much closer in what they are.
ranger56528 you don't mind crossbows in general archery season then ?
LBR
Actually thats not correct Chad. Crossbows are allowed in EVERY general archery season in every state to my knowledge. You might have to have a handciap permit to use one, but legal archery weapons they are classified. Muzzleloader aren't allowed in archery season every, neither are firearms, they're not archery, it doesn't matter if you're handicap or not.
What makes you fear the loss of archery season ? Is it technology ?
thats the root of it all though isn't it ? If you don't BELIEVE it should be allowed, isn't that an elitist view ? That "hey I don't like XX weapon, I don't use it and I don't want you to either" view - thats the way I'm beginning to feel about compounds on some levels, not unlike many thinnk about crossbows.
So how am I labeled a divider ... but anti-crossbow people are not labeled ?
recurver167 so you don't mind technology increasing, and more and more atuff allowed on compounds or maybe crossbow's being allowed in archery season ?
ranger56528 that definition is true - and it excludes the eccentrics that makes compounds what they are. I mean seriously, the parallel limbs don't move hardly at all on the new bows, and they certainly get no "propel" out of them, all the energy comes from the wheels
ranger56528 you don't mind crossbows in general archery season then ?
LBR
BD, I'm not wrong at all. My perspective is from a hunting and legal viewpoint: in most states, crossbows are legal for primitive weapons season, but not for archery only seasons or areas. From that perspective, a crossbow is a primitive weapon but not archery equipment--same as a muzzleloader.
but I don't want to loose the archery season. It's a quieter and less stressful time to be in the hunting woods.
but IMO it's not archery equipment.
So how am I labeled a divider ... but anti-crossbow people are not labeled ?
recurver167 so you don't mind technology increasing, and more and more atuff allowed on compounds or maybe crossbow's being allowed in archery season ?
ranger56528 that definition is true - and it excludes the eccentrics that makes compounds what they are. I mean seriously, the parallel limbs don't move hardly at all on the new bows, and they certainly get no "propel" out of them, all the energy comes from the wheels
02-27-2008, 02:25 PM
#92
Typical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Jackson,MI
Posts: 819
RE: Elitist attitude
BigD:If I had to choose between their gadgets or not hunting at all,I would let them have them.I don't have to use all the crap,but I can't condem them for it either.If everyone hunted with a stick and string just imagine what the wounding rate would be.Traditional isn't for everyone anymore than fatchicks
.A 150" buck is a 150" buck no matter what he's taken with.I have a few good deer shot with a gun,they don't mean half as much as a meat doe I took with my recurve. I'm just saying hunt like you mean it,ethical and law abiding.Don't judge anyone unless you want to judged.IMO
.A 150" buck is a 150" buck no matter what he's taken with.I have a few good deer shot with a gun,they don't mean half as much as a meat doe I took with my recurve. I'm just saying hunt like you mean it,ethical and law abiding.Don't judge anyone unless you want to judged.IMO
02-27-2008, 02:56 PM
#93
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Central Minnesota
Posts: 9,445
RE: Elitist attitude
ORIGINAL: Arthur P
I've been hoping that for the past 20 years and my hopes have been dashed on pretty much an annual basis every year since. It's well beyond the point of no return and itwill go further. Further, at least, until technology takes archery gear so far that the speed and range of high tech equipment will no longer allow it to be used in special 'safety zone' units, or untilhunter success ratios get so high the seasons start being cut back or eliminated, andwe get lumped in with gun seasons.
Ifbows are lumped in with gun seasons, then that will be the end of the big archery companies. Nobody but the few diehards and wierdos will hunt with bows, or crossbows either for that matter,when they could be using rifles instead. If they won't hunt with them, they won't be buying them. No customers, no business.The big companies must know this, I think, but apparently they're either extremely short sighted about the future or areless concerned for the future of the sport than they are in making the most money possible, RIGHT NOW.
On the positive side, most of those diehard and wierdo bowhunters left overwill be US, the traditional and primitive archers. And, eventually, we'll get together and go back to the game commissions and begin the long process of getting special archery seasons set up for traditional equipment. Maybe next time we can do it right and keep it that way.
Its the new way now of bow hunting, I just hope it doesn't go any further then it has.
Ifbows are lumped in with gun seasons, then that will be the end of the big archery companies. Nobody but the few diehards and wierdos will hunt with bows, or crossbows either for that matter,when they could be using rifles instead. If they won't hunt with them, they won't be buying them. No customers, no business.The big companies must know this, I think, but apparently they're either extremely short sighted about the future or areless concerned for the future of the sport than they are in making the most money possible, RIGHT NOW.
On the positive side, most of those diehard and wierdo bowhunters left overwill be US, the traditional and primitive archers. And, eventually, we'll get together and go back to the game commissions and begin the long process of getting special archery seasons set up for traditional equipment. Maybe next time we can do it right and keep it that way.
02-27-2008, 03:33 PM
#94
Fork Horn
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location:
Posts: 478
RE: Elitist attitude
At what point do we come to the conclusion that if we seperate up a 3 month block of hunting time into primitive archery(which my crossbow should be included in) traditional archery(no wheels, but modern equipment) compound, crossbow, then primitive muzzeloading, modern muzzeloading, then shotgun and rifle do we end up with not only a week or so of "our season" if we are lucky but someone somewhere will whine that "their season" is not during peak time so they have no ability to harvest an animal. Allowing crossbows into archery season has never decimated deer herds or caused a huge influx of gun hunters poaring into anyones woods during archery season. The same can be said for ANY form of modern technology in archery. Is technology influencing how we hunt and increasing our chances of taking an animal?? of course. but deer herds are still growing and every year the harvest gets bigger(at least in most states). The crossbow debate will probably never have a clean end since the debate as to compounds being "bows" is still going on as well. I feel that it is a moot point. I would prefer that as "archers" we allow that there is equipment available that makes being accurate easier and more consistant and if we as individuals choose to limit the use of that technology to provide more challenge then we should be a bit more proud of a successfull hunt than the guy with a compound or crossbow.However, pride inour accomplishments is not the same as elitism which is the subject of this thread. Being told by someoneusing a fully outfitted compound that a crossbow is not archery is no diferant than a compound archer being told by a modern recurve hunter withcarbon arrows that his bow is not a bow. That of course is followed by the primitive archer that sneers at all ofus. (by the way, I use a long bow with wood arrows I make myselfduring archery season). Be proud of how you hunt if you choose to take the hard way, you deserve to be proud, but seriously...it is all archery and we had all better focus on more important things than re-defining a weapon that was considered a bow overa thousand years ago...
Wyvern
Wyvern
02-28-2008, 05:22 AM
#95
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Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Obama made me join the NRA for 5 years !
Posts: 2,181
RE: Elitist attitude
A 150" buck is a 150" buck no matter what he's taken with.I have a few good deer shot with a gun,they don't mean half as much as a meat doe I took with my recurve.
which is it ?
Don't judge anyone unless you want to judged
And, eventually, we'll get together and go back to the game commissions and begin the long process of getting special archery seasons set up for traditional equipment. Maybe next time we can do it right and keep it that way.
Wyvern Crossbow I agree with much that you said. I've been debating canned hunting lately, and it brings up many of the same points. Who am I to tella guy he can't kill a tiger in a 2 acre pen ? If he wants to hunt that tiger, let him, what impact does it have on me ? Big Tent theory, welcome that canned hunter, support his "sport", we're all in this together, right ?
But I don't believe that. At my very core, canned hunting is WRONG. I'll never support it. Is that an eliteist attitude on my part ? Sure it is, and I'm honored and proud to have it and hold every hunter in the US to the same standards.
Right now, archery season can handle compounds and crossbows and recurves and longbows. We see it in most states, and there have been no cutbacks in archery seasons or bag limits.
Because of that, I'm inclined to say allow it all because after all, there hasn't been any real factual, visible signs of negative aftershocks.
BUT .... for some reason I "feel" that we're losing what hunting is and replacing it with quick and easy and I'm certain that isn't good either.
So where does that leave me ?
02-28-2008, 05:41 AM
#96
Fork Horn
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location:
Posts: 478
RE: Elitist attitude
"Is that an eliteist attitude on my part ? Sure it is, and I'm honored and proud to have it and hold every hunter in the US to the same standards. "
Here is the core issue....who sets the "standard"??? In this thread alone I was told that though my crossbow is cool it is "not archery to me". So by that standard I will never be able to use my "bow" in archery season. The guy who pays to be placed in a pen with an animal he could never find in the wild on his own is not "hunting", he is "killing" but most of the TV shows we watch are just that...enclosed areas and guided hunts on bated hunt parks. How many vocal "traditioanlists" use a treestand or a range finder, or scent eliminators and modern camo and lures and modern equipment? Do we now hold them to a "standard" that a plaid shirt, wood arrows, and Howard Hill hat are the only equipment they are allowed to use, and get some good shoes since you will be stalking for your animal?? We are at a point that we either need to blanket "archery" as a multi level sport with various levels of dificulty but all resulting in a more challenging hunt than gun hunting, or we need to draw VERY sharp lines as to what exactly archery is and kick all of the compounds, crossbows, and modern equipment into the gun season (which is exactly what is done in many states with crossbows). I want to be there when the elitiest that sets the standards tells Joe Compound user that his equipment is not "archery" and he has to hunt with orange on or he may get shot...
I think that what standards you set for yourself sets the dificulty level of the sport for you. Unless there is a safety issue, legal issue, or there is a dramatic effect in the deer herds or the quality of hunting, archery is archery...ALL of it, and no one really has the right to impose their "standards" on someone else.
OH...and as far as "loosing what hunting is" (by your standards of traditional equipment) the HUGE rise in people going to traditional archery is a sign that this is not only not true, but just the opposite...people have spent many years doing it the easy way and now desire more challenge. THis alone will help bring the sport back to its roots.
Wyvern
Here is the core issue....who sets the "standard"??? In this thread alone I was told that though my crossbow is cool it is "not archery to me". So by that standard I will never be able to use my "bow" in archery season. The guy who pays to be placed in a pen with an animal he could never find in the wild on his own is not "hunting", he is "killing" but most of the TV shows we watch are just that...enclosed areas and guided hunts on bated hunt parks. How many vocal "traditioanlists" use a treestand or a range finder, or scent eliminators and modern camo and lures and modern equipment? Do we now hold them to a "standard" that a plaid shirt, wood arrows, and Howard Hill hat are the only equipment they are allowed to use, and get some good shoes since you will be stalking for your animal?? We are at a point that we either need to blanket "archery" as a multi level sport with various levels of dificulty but all resulting in a more challenging hunt than gun hunting, or we need to draw VERY sharp lines as to what exactly archery is and kick all of the compounds, crossbows, and modern equipment into the gun season (which is exactly what is done in many states with crossbows). I want to be there when the elitiest that sets the standards tells Joe Compound user that his equipment is not "archery" and he has to hunt with orange on or he may get shot...
I think that what standards you set for yourself sets the dificulty level of the sport for you. Unless there is a safety issue, legal issue, or there is a dramatic effect in the deer herds or the quality of hunting, archery is archery...ALL of it, and no one really has the right to impose their "standards" on someone else.
OH...and as far as "loosing what hunting is" (by your standards of traditional equipment) the HUGE rise in people going to traditional archery is a sign that this is not only not true, but just the opposite...people have spent many years doing it the easy way and now desire more challenge. THis alone will help bring the sport back to its roots.
Wyvern
02-28-2008, 06:13 AM
#97
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Blanchester Ohio USA
Posts: 1,269
RE: Elitist attitude
I hunt with a selfbow I made myself. Rivercane arrows and obsidian heads with turkey feathers all made by me. I maid the bow, the string, the arrows, the heads, the quiver....I'm sure I'm forgetting something.
I love it. I love making the stuff as well as shooting it. In todays day and age we've become a society that is all about the quick and easy, the disposable. The premade, no work neccisarry. We do this with the intent of having more time to do what we want. Unfortunatly the cost of those things keeps our time busy trying to afford them. We don't make anything anymore. Or at least most people don't. It is all about the fastest or easiest thing. The newest gadget etc...
Nothing wrong with that I guess. But for me one day I realized I was waisting a ton of money on things I didn't need. Then I realized the history and traditions and skills our forefathers used from day to day are going away. If we don't learn these things and pass them on they will be gone. Like the way hunting is being attacked by anti's the traditions of the past are being attacked by the current way of life. The do it yourself guy is becoming the oddity instead of the norm. I find this unfortunate. I took up bowhunting because I love to be in the woods. Gun season was to short for me. Gun season was a tradtion in my family. Every year the guys went to a hunting camp and stayed up to a week. Unfortunatly things have changed and this doesn't happen anymore. (something I hope to change) It was something I greatly looked forward to but now is gone. My children may never know the antisipation of getting ready to go. The same is true with Trad for me. Recurves and longbows are technologicaly inferiour to the modern archery gear. They are slower and harder to master. The fact remains though that all archery equipment is inferior to most firearms.
I am thankfull people are interested in archery. Be it modern or traditional. I teach archery to kids. They come in not shooting anything. They first draw to the compounds (genesis bows) becuase of the modern look kids like. Before long I've usualy got them shooting a longbow or recurve. They like the chanllenge and see the advantages the simple designs offer.
For me I like that people shoot compounds and are interested in them. I don't like the throw away attitude that comes with it (not saying that people throw these away., just that they are somewhat disposable) The "I have to have the newest fastest..." every year or more.
I do own several compounds. My first bow (mid 70 Bear polar 2) I killed my first deer with it. and a bow I go to when I haven't had the time to practice with my trad gear, a PSE bow from probably 12 years ago. I can pick this bow up today after not shooting it for years and shoot 3 inch groups at 40 yards.
I prefer to have a trad bow in had if I am afield but I will not stay home if I cannot take one or do not feel comfortable with one. I hunt because I love it and don't care the equipment other than my preferences.
I'm no better than anyone for the equipment I choose. Sure its harder to be proficient with trad gear. Harder yet to make all your own gear and use it. Thats part of why I choose it. The other part is to keep the history of it alive. I hope I never talk down to anyone because of the equipment they use (or for any other reason either) We all start somewhere. I hope people try trad sometime. They often find they like it better.
Excuse my poor spelling and typing errors....
And forgive the long rambling post... I haven't had my coffee yet ...LOL
I love it. I love making the stuff as well as shooting it. In todays day and age we've become a society that is all about the quick and easy, the disposable. The premade, no work neccisarry. We do this with the intent of having more time to do what we want. Unfortunatly the cost of those things keeps our time busy trying to afford them. We don't make anything anymore. Or at least most people don't. It is all about the fastest or easiest thing. The newest gadget etc...
Nothing wrong with that I guess. But for me one day I realized I was waisting a ton of money on things I didn't need. Then I realized the history and traditions and skills our forefathers used from day to day are going away. If we don't learn these things and pass them on they will be gone. Like the way hunting is being attacked by anti's the traditions of the past are being attacked by the current way of life. The do it yourself guy is becoming the oddity instead of the norm. I find this unfortunate. I took up bowhunting because I love to be in the woods. Gun season was to short for me. Gun season was a tradtion in my family. Every year the guys went to a hunting camp and stayed up to a week. Unfortunatly things have changed and this doesn't happen anymore. (something I hope to change) It was something I greatly looked forward to but now is gone. My children may never know the antisipation of getting ready to go. The same is true with Trad for me. Recurves and longbows are technologicaly inferiour to the modern archery gear. They are slower and harder to master. The fact remains though that all archery equipment is inferior to most firearms.
I am thankfull people are interested in archery. Be it modern or traditional. I teach archery to kids. They come in not shooting anything. They first draw to the compounds (genesis bows) becuase of the modern look kids like. Before long I've usualy got them shooting a longbow or recurve. They like the chanllenge and see the advantages the simple designs offer.
For me I like that people shoot compounds and are interested in them. I don't like the throw away attitude that comes with it (not saying that people throw these away., just that they are somewhat disposable) The "I have to have the newest fastest..." every year or more.
I do own several compounds. My first bow (mid 70 Bear polar 2) I killed my first deer with it. and a bow I go to when I haven't had the time to practice with my trad gear, a PSE bow from probably 12 years ago. I can pick this bow up today after not shooting it for years and shoot 3 inch groups at 40 yards.
I prefer to have a trad bow in had if I am afield but I will not stay home if I cannot take one or do not feel comfortable with one. I hunt because I love it and don't care the equipment other than my preferences.
I'm no better than anyone for the equipment I choose. Sure its harder to be proficient with trad gear. Harder yet to make all your own gear and use it. Thats part of why I choose it. The other part is to keep the history of it alive. I hope I never talk down to anyone because of the equipment they use (or for any other reason either) We all start somewhere. I hope people try trad sometime. They often find they like it better.
Excuse my poor spelling and typing errors....
And forgive the long rambling post... I haven't had my coffee yet ...LOL
02-28-2008, 06:17 AM
#98
Banned
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Obama made me join the NRA for 5 years !
Posts: 2,181
RE: Elitist attitude
Here is the core issue....who sets the "standard"???
Not only complex answers, but its ever changing. This year mechanicals might not be legal for elk in NM, next year they might be. I know this - its rare when something is finally allowed IN and then later removed. Once in, VERY hard to get out.
Unless there is a safety issue, legal issue, or there is a dramatic effect in the deer herds or the quality of hunting, archery is archery...ALL of it, and no one really has the right to impose their "standards" on someone else.
That said ...... there WILL come a time to draw line, Wyvern Crossbowwho's going to draw them and where ? I'd like to have answers in my head BEFORE that time gets here, a view of it all and firm footing on what I believe and what I don't you know ?
I want to be there when the elitiest that sets the standards tells Joe Compound user that his equipment is not "archery" and he has to hunt with orange on or he may get shot...
OH...and as far as "loosing what hunting is" (by your standards of traditional equipment) the HUGE rise in people going to traditional archery is a sign that this is not only not true, but just the opposite...people have spent many years doing it the easy way and now desire more challenge. THis alone will help bring the sport back to its roots.
02-28-2008, 06:59 AM
#99
Fork Horn
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location:
Posts: 478
RE: Elitist attitude
"If that is the direction we're going as a bowhunting community, why not legislate it ?"
It is legislated...It is the definition between archery season and gun season. It "should" be fairly simple: if it goes "boom" it is a gun, if it goes "twang/thwap" and causes an animal to bleed to death it is archery. Does this broad definition cause overlaps?? sure! Some guy with a flintlock and a miniball is hunting during the same season as a modern rifle. The stick bow guy is hunting with someone wiht a Stryker crossbow. In the process of setting asside seperate season for every form of hunting we have done nothing but place wedges between ALL forms of hunting.
The main complaint I hear from anyone trying to get a special season is that they feel that any form of hunting other than their own personal choice is unfair and they should be granted special treatment. Hate to say it, but no one has the right to be treated THAT special. You can easily hunt with a stick bow and flint while some guy in the next county uses his modern compound or crossbow. If all you are trying to achieve is a patch of woods all to yourself to hunt in(which is EXACTLY what special seasons are for)then you either need to buy/lease yourself some private property or drive a few hours so you are not in a populated area. At that point you can run naked thru the woods and howl at the moon all you wantwhile you hunt "my way"provided you stay within the law.
I really do feel that pride in your choice to do things the hard way is great. Forcing your "definition" of "what is archery" and " what is hunting" on someone else that is using ethical and legal methods of harvesting animals and is not REALLY affecting your ability to enjoy the sport is selfish and ignorant.
Wyvern
It is legislated...It is the definition between archery season and gun season. It "should" be fairly simple: if it goes "boom" it is a gun, if it goes "twang/thwap" and causes an animal to bleed to death it is archery. Does this broad definition cause overlaps?? sure! Some guy with a flintlock and a miniball is hunting during the same season as a modern rifle. The stick bow guy is hunting with someone wiht a Stryker crossbow. In the process of setting asside seperate season for every form of hunting we have done nothing but place wedges between ALL forms of hunting.
The main complaint I hear from anyone trying to get a special season is that they feel that any form of hunting other than their own personal choice is unfair and they should be granted special treatment. Hate to say it, but no one has the right to be treated THAT special. You can easily hunt with a stick bow and flint while some guy in the next county uses his modern compound or crossbow. If all you are trying to achieve is a patch of woods all to yourself to hunt in(which is EXACTLY what special seasons are for)then you either need to buy/lease yourself some private property or drive a few hours so you are not in a populated area. At that point you can run naked thru the woods and howl at the moon all you wantwhile you hunt "my way"provided you stay within the law.
I really do feel that pride in your choice to do things the hard way is great. Forcing your "definition" of "what is archery" and " what is hunting" on someone else that is using ethical and legal methods of harvesting animals and is not REALLY affecting your ability to enjoy the sport is selfish and ignorant.
Wyvern
02-28-2008, 07:19 AM
#100
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: North Lima Ohio & Clarion Pa
Posts: 6,453
RE: Elitist attitude
Hey if your making all your own stuff, including bow, arrow, string, arrow head, shooting glove ..no rangefinders...yadda yadda yadda. You should be proud! Thats one hell of a committment and a great accomplishment to take an animal with something crafted entirely from your hands!
If you buying any components..your just another one of "us".. I give you the same respect I give anyone else shooting (any)bow accurately.
If you buying any components..your just another one of "us".. I give you the same respect I give anyone else shooting (any)bow accurately.