Frustrated!!!
 

Whats this world coming too when it comes to bow hunting? I suredon't like this new wave of hunting ethics people are using these days, more so on the compound side of it then the traditional side of it! As bow hunters we are a small group of people, the easiest group for anti's to target! Is it just me or does anyone else have any concern's also? Sorry, i just had to vent a little!

RE: Frustrated!!!
 

Now if you are making refernce to shot distance, as you posted in the moder bowhunting forum, then you need to consider everyones individual experince and skills. You were painting with an awfully broad brush over there. Like for instance; Ive been bow hunting for 30 years, give or take. I live in West Texas where you dont get lots of 10 15 yard shots. Most all the deer ivetaken are at 30 yard out. That is one of the reasons I dont get as many deer with my trad gear as I do my compounds. My limit on trad gear is 20 yards or so. Ive taken many animals out to 45+ yards with my compounds, but will let every thing walk if its over 20 with my trad gear. Heck, this year, both my doe and buck were taken past 20 yards. My doe was about 25 yards and my buck just under 45 yards. Like i mentioned on your other thread, its all about experience and knowing the animal.

RE: Frustrated!!!
 

My big problem is the QDM guys. The ones who will berate a person for taking a young buck and scream foul. Then they will turn around and shot a young doe. I thought QDM meant quality deer managment. Not quality antler managment.

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Its not just the shot distance stuff that gets me, its theethics people are using in general!

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Yea, I don't like it either. You see all these clowns that have limitations and try to force them on others because they are not good at something and say its ethics. When honestly, they have no idea what ethics mean.

So I know what you mean man. :D

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I hear ya....I would like to see all the QDM deer these people are getting,where are all the pics of these so called 140-150-160 class deer.....Myself I like to shoot doe's,after all Iam in it for the hunt and meat,have you ever had Horn soup ?.I havent :D.
Any deer(doe,buck,fork,button) taken with a bow weather it be compound, trad or crossbow is a trophy in my book as long as its spot free ;)or differant type of deer.
Most of my shoots are under 22-23 yards......

RE: Frustrated!!!
 

A lot of what you are saying is exactly what a whole lot of us feared, when we fought against legalization of compounds in the early days. In many ways, our point of view has been vindicated. Making bowhunting easier has brought a huge number of people into the sport. Good in many ways, but not so good in others.

A whole lot of them are gun hunters who approach bowhunting with that same gunhunter mentality. Many have no ethics but what is written in the regulations book. Then there are some that don't even worry too much about regs. But there are probably a lot more compounders than either of those groups who are just as dedicated and ethical as your average traditional bowhunter. Slopping paint on them with that same wide brush is extremely unfair.

Now, I am appalled that bowhunting has gotten so easy that bowhunters are now talking seriously about QDM. There was a time when bowhunting was considered low impact, recreational hunting. Now it's part of the states' overall herd management scheme. It has to be though.

Overall bowhunter success ratios are now around 40%, within 20-25 points of gun hunters' success ratios. Those who claim that hunting with a compound is so much harder than hunting with a rifle are close to making fools of themselves. Statistically, it's 2/3's as easy. (By the way, according to statistics from Ohio DNR, compound hunter success ratio is IDENTICAL to the crossbow hunter success ratio.) I can't help but wonder what the next great leap of bowhunting technology will be, that will close that final 20% gap and put us on equal footing with rifle hunters. What happens to our bow seasons when it does? That is what I worry about, more than ethics.

For the record, traditional bowhunting success ratios are around 12-15%, with a far lower wound/loss rate than compound bowhunters, according to the Oklahoma State Univ. study done at McAlester Army Ammo depot.

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the last phrase..is this due to ethics that most of us have,not takeing thous 40-50 yard shots,knowing the limitations of ourselfs and bow.I think so...

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Need to watch what you are wishing for. I remember those days and from what I remember, Trad gear got the biggest bashing due to the time and effort needed to be proficient. Then all bows came under fire. I read a million studies showing how guns wond more deer; compounds wond more deer; long and recurve wond more deer; etc. etc. You can find a study that will prove anything. I really question any study because it is only as accurate as the focuse groups agenda. Look at political studies if you dont believe me. You will find a study to prove anything you want.

I refuse to bash any hunter doing things legal. Every one cries, "the anties will think this or that". Antis dont care, but when hunters fight among each other about how much more ethical they are than others, that causes problems. Hunters are hunters worst enemy.

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I agree, ive never eaten antler soup.

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In the case of the McAlester study, the focus group was the U.S. Army, specifically the folks who are in charge of herd management at the depot. The ever increasing hunter success rate got to the point where too many deer were being taken during their annual draw archery hunts and many deer were being reported wounded and lost. Their agenda was to determine how to reduce the wound/loss ratio and decrease the overall harvest back to proper management levels. Nothing sinister. ;)

As a result of the study, the hunt was made traditional-only and I think it still is. Traditional allowed them to keep drawing the same number of hunters and still meet their goals.

You can get a copy of the study from Oklahoma State University. You can get hunter success rates from most states' DNR websites. They keep statistics to help them set seasons and bag limits and it's all public information.

And this bit:

Bashed by lazy clods who didn't want to take the time and make the effort to be proficient, as I recall.

By the way, burnie... If you listed your DOB right on your profile, you were just a baby during the big anti-compound battles I'm referring too. I believe I'm remembering back just a tad further than you are. ;)

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You know my brother and I were discussing this. I remember when I was a kid, everybody in Ky was into squirrel hunting in Oct. and early Nov. Some old timers still are, but with the explosion of archery, I don't know anyone that doesn't go nuts over bowhunting in Oct/Nov.

I myself think people worry way too much what the other is doing. Lots of busybody sewing circles on forums.

Usually I post devils advocate posts on these forums and alot of ways agree with the "ethics police" poster, but can't stand their attitudes and want to run or distance myself from these clowns. And reason is, I get sick and tired of people using the words ethics. When they don't even know what the word means, and basically want to force people to hunt the way they hunt because they can't do better. I think part of the "ethics police" mentality on these forums, is a whole lot of insecurity of some on these forums.

Its like ArthurP on here or LBR or Burnie, bob, etc. I guarantee all these guys abilities exceeds mine by a good bit. I am only good up to 18 yards. I am only confident up to 18 yards. But I am sure thier limit or personal ethics are totally different. Like Chads crazy position shots. I can't do that. But if he took a shot at a deer like that, sure doesn't mean its unethical.

RE: Frustrated!!!
 

Absolutely! Case in point, I can't stand the continual QDM brow beating we had going on the bowhunting forum for so long. On the other hand, if we don't try to police our own ranks, then the gov't will step in and we'll all be screwed. Unfortunately, once they get past bowhunter education, peer pressure is the only tool we've got.

RE: Frustrated!!!
 

You got that right, bothbigcountry and Arthur P...

RE: Frustrated!!!
 

I couldn't agree more Art! I've helped alot of young fellars out when getting into bow huntingweather its compound or Traditional i've helped them the best i can. These same people i helped out did foolish things and shots when starting out. Its expected of them, they came to me andasked what there doing wrong?They were wounding animals by the way with takingbad shots. Iexplained it to them againabout taking high percentage respectable shots. I didn't use the word ethics bigcountry, does it sound better?;) Lol! Relax already!!!!! These certain people i helped out have really matured in the bow hunting part of it, it makes a guyfeel damn good and proud that he made a difference! My ways of shooting may not be quote on qoute the right wayfor everybody, butI gurantee they sure aren't the wrong way! Some of the stuff Bigcountry you have said has alot of truth to it, i beleive you have good morals!

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D.O.B. was incorrect. I never set it. But you are right, I was very young and Ill admit, I was on the trad side. I did not shoot a compound until the late 70s. In a way, you said what I was trying to say. The clods, as you said, have their study group. The trad boys,have theirs. You did, though, point out the source of your study andappears legit, but im real curious about how they came upwiththere assesments. Either way, my point is; Why do hunters bash hunters fordoing what is legal. That is my whole point.

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I don't blame you. Too much identity theft going on and no point in making it easier.

I wasn't much more than a kid, myself, senior in high school, when I started writing letters to TPWD about compounds and crossbows. Guess I've always been kind of a nutcase. ;)

Has anyone by chance been following the thread on the bowhunting forum about who has broken game laws?? A whole bunch of people seem not to be doing it legally. I'll bash 'em for that, for sure. We ALL should. They deserve a royal bashing because they've earned it. Makes us all look bad by association.

Ethics are personal rules that a true sportsman follows, personal limitations over and beyond basic legalities . So, if people intentionally disobey game laws then, by definition, they cannot be ethical hunters.

RE: Frustrated!!!
 

Art.

I could not agree with more on that statement.

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Its insecurity. Bottom line. If you have to tell people how long you been bowhunting or how many bows you had, your insecure. And to make themselves feel better they bash others.

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Ill jump right on that band wagon. I have not seen that post, Id assume it will be pulled quick. And ill agree 100%. Break the laws, and you are not ethical.

RE: Frustrated!!!
 

I hunt exclusively with a compound but am working up the confidence with my traditional tackle and hopefully will be ready to go next season. I passed up the only shot i had on a P&Y 9 pt(would be my3rd)this past weekend on my farm in Ohio. He was at thirty yards but that isn't why i passed him up, it was the hard quartering tooangle. Could i have busted through? Possibly. But yet i hunt with a compound bow so that makes me an unethical hunter. Have i made bad shots? Yes i think everyone has or will in their life.Why must Trad shooters look atcompound shooters as if they accomplish less when they mske a successful harvest? I don't get the segregation thing![&:]

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Where'd you come up with that? I reread the entire thread and didn't see a single place where anyone said anything remotely resembling that statement. But then.... When you get that deer with your recurve next year, you won't have to ask that question again.

If YOU say so. None of us did. The original comment was: Emphasis mine, of course. More so just means a higher percentage of one than the other. It is not an all inclusive term.

RE: Frustrated!!!
 

Where did you come up with that? All i said was I suredon't like this new wave of hunting ethics people are using these days, more so on the compound side of it then the traditional side of it! Open your ears and listen to some of these stories on here from some of the guys shooting compounds, its kinda scary on the way some of them think and the shots they take! By no means everyone is like that but i think its getting worse and worse every year! You seem to have your stuff together, you proved that on passing on that 9pt, good decision on your part! I don't care what anyone shoots for a bow, justtake and practicegood quality high percentage shots and pass it on to the next young bow hunter who is starting out and so on! Good luck next year doing the traditional thing!

RE: Frustrated!!!
 

compound shooters think of trad shooters as unethical because they aren't nearly as accurate, and wound more animals

trad shooters think compounders have removed so much of the archery from their hunting that its not even bowhunting anymore with the triggers, sights, 70 yard shots and mechanical broadheads

theres your blanket - and many, MANY hunters sleep under them both


If you shoot trad ? Get off your high horse, know that shooting a compound and killing deer IS much easier than your choice in bows, but it still isn't easy. As long as the technology wave doesn't shorten your season, your bag limits, or otherwise affects your bowhunting in any way, shape or form ? Don't worry about it, worry about YOUR hunting.

If you shoot a compound ? Get off your high horse, know that you're choosing a much easier weapon to shoot, and that while trad archers MIGHT wound more game ? Plenty enough are shot and lost with compounds. If YOUR seasons/bag limits etc isn't affected by those shooting real bows ? Don't worry about their hunting, worry about YOUR hunting.


I shot a compound for 13 years, then switched to trad for 3-4 years, and am shooting a compound again this year. I've wounded deer and killed deer with both. I can tell you 100% trad is much harder, and I can tell you 100% compounds are not easy.

Don't be frustrated, unless YOUR season is being impacted by someone elses choices in weapons.

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Wow, stealthy. Very good.;)

RE: Frustrated!!!
 

[blockquote]quote:

Why must Trad shooters look at compound shooters as if they accomplish less when they mske a successful harvest? [/blockquote]


Where'd you come up with that? I reread the entire thread and didn't see a single place where anyone said anything remotely resembling that statement. But then.... When you get that deer with your recurve next year, you won't have to ask that question again.

I never said it was in this thread i was simply asking a question, that what that squiggle and dot mean at the end of a sentence.;)The reason i ask is that i was sharing the story of my first P&Ywith some freinds at my friends archery shop and some guy busted in and asked if i had shot it with Trad gear i replied "no" and he proceeded to tell me that it doesn't count.

quote:

I suredon't like this new wave of hunting ethics people are using these days, more so on the compound side of it then the traditional side of it!

I have met some bad compound hunters and some bad Trad hunters. I just don't understand why we must segregate ourselves any more than we already are?[&:]

RE: Frustrated!!!
 

I think what they are trying to say is its an observation. I observe the same thing myself. I dont' think its a big secret. If I was you, I would get too upset over an observation.

RE: Frustrated!!!
 

popeandyoungchaser the above is very accurate, like it or not

may I ?

most states have very good seasons and bag limits for archery hunting. modern compounds continue their leaps in technology. At some point I think , 100 yard shots, 450 fps, 99% letoffs and extreme accuracy will be commonplace, not unlike muzzleloaders now being 1 shot scoped rifles with 300 yard accuracy.

you have to soul search, and find out WHAT archery is, WHAT bowhunting is. Is it 300 fps and 70 yard 2" groups ? is it carving your bow from an osage stave and shooting cane shafts and trade points ?

the belief should be that you choose your bow, and that bow should be allowed in archery season, as long as it doesn't negatively impact archery seasons, bag limts etc.

but its not a popular belief, and compound shooters hate that whole concept more than trad shooters. Why ? because trad shooters are taking the tough road, compounders the easy road, and the "easy road" rarely likes the harder one.

choices.

RE: Frustrated!!!
 

Well, I let a 160 class buck walk broadside at 28-30 yards this year, turned quartered away at 35, then scraped the dirt broadside at 40. Biggest buck I have ever seen. Also stalked up to a buttonbuck at 5 yards (thought he was a doe until I got close), didn't shoot.

RE: Frustrated!!!
 

No matter what hunting group you're a part of,there's always going to be a certain percentage of holier than thou butt holes. Even among thetraditional ranks, there are some that feel unless you're doing it a certain way, mainly their way, you're notdoing it right. Fortunately, they don'ttypically represent the majority but as loud as they like to voice their opinions,you would think they do. As BC mentioned earlier, many negative comments come from an individuals insecurity or jealousy.For some,it's aninherent flaw in their personality tohave totear others down to make themselves feel and/or look good. I wouldn't take those individuals too seriously.

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I dont spend my time or energy with these type of people ,after all I hunt with all types of bows.

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Oh, well... As long as we're on the subject of getting ticked off... How about let's look at what's going on over on the compound side of the road.

How about the poor deluded souls who call traditional bowhunters unethical because of the poor accuracy they've seen at 3D tournaments? That one always manages to slip a burr under my saddle. We take shots at TARGETS for FUN, shots that are often outside our known proficiency distance, shots that we'd never take in the woods in a real hunting situation. Naturally we're going to miss shots on the target range - even shots that are easy for someone shooting 300 fps with sights and peeps and mechanical triggers and such - because it's a GAME. It's supposed to be challenging. If the course is challenging your skills, you will miss. But these dunderheads don't have enough functional brain cells to understand the distinction between playing a game and hunting.

Of course, that one is closely akin to the idiots who say we are unethical because our bows aren't as powerful and our arrows aren't as fast as theirs. Several of the fellas that spew such garbage hang out on the bowhunting forum on this site. I have yet to be able to get a single one of them to agree to stand at 100 yards and let me take ONE shot at him with a slow, heavy arrow out of my 'underpowered' longbow. ;)

So it's okay for some on that side to lie and call us unethical and yet we're supposed to be all sorry and apologetic over the wheeliebow lads getting a tad huffed because a few folks on our side don't consider their harvests to be quite equal in accomplishment level? HA![>:]

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Then if they do miss its the equipments fault not there's....I too have had my misses with Trad and Compound but never blame it on my bow.Ive seen many people break out there range finders at shoots like this,then you wonder why they have such high scores.Ive heard guys say things like,its 37yrds,its 44yrds and so on.Now if they said things like,I put my 30 on it and hit low or had my 40 on it and hit high then its a differant story.O-wait thats normaly what I say when shooting the round with compound,when doing it with trad I normaly just say things like....should of aimed higher or lower or it didnt look that far out...
I went to a Coca Cola shoot with both bows and went thru with the Recurve 1st and I felt very out of place(as if it was a tabu)then went thru with my compound and it was awhole differant feeling I got.Nxt year I will bring all three,trad,compound and crossbow then walk up and tell them I want to shot the crossbow round and see what they say.Iam sure that wil spread around the shooters like wildfire(a guy just wanted to shoot CB hahaha),then go back with trad then compound and see what they say.....

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You are oneof the few good old fashionguys left in this bow hunting world Art! You say whats on your mind without giving a hoot what anyone else says or thinksand at the same time what your saying usually makes alot of sense. I'm pretty old fashiontoo Art when it comes to bowhunting or just hunting period! Hats offto you Art for being the true ethical bow hunter you are and hopefully a few young folks will take what you have to say and put it to good use using whatever weapen they so happen todesire.

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Know what I say about that? If you can put the blame for your misses on the equipment, then the equipment deserves the credit when the arrow goes where it's supposed to. ;)

Schultzy, here's to us old fashioned guys!

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Actually, from what I see they seem to love to advertise their equipment and give credit to it. FWIW, that drives me nutts also. [:@]

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My hats off to you too Arthur.....I've only been a bow hunter for the last 17 years myself. i started out with an old Martin Lynx compound bow in 1990. i took off into the high tech transformation of these compound bows for any years with all my heart and soul. i built my own archery shop, and had a ball tweaking bows and trying to make them faster and more efficient for 3D shooting compittition....It was challanging and just a lot of fun, i got into presision arrow building too as a result. This was just as important, if not more so, than having a fast bow. the faster those light arrows travel, the more accurate they needed to be built to be identical to each other for consistant groups at longer distances.....Now you'll notice i haven't mentioned hunting yet......Bow "Hunting" and 3D compitition is two totally different things...one is a game, or a challange, or just a bunch of fun. Yes, it can be used as some of the best hunting practice you can get too. But there is a vast difference in shooting rubber deer & elk that don't move.....Whayt i used to do was have a 3D bow high speed unit i played with in compitition, then my hunting bow that i used for that purpose.....

What brought me over to traditional style archery was that the technicalogical advances of the average compound bow were promoting too much long distance shooting in the field at animalsin my opinion......Now before i piss anyone off here....let me explain my take on this....Here is Duanes Quote :

compound shooters think of trad shooters as unethical because they aren't nearly as accurate, and wound more animals

trad shooters think compounders have removed so much of the archery from their hunting that its not even bowhunting anymore with the triggers, sights, 70 yard shots and mechanical broadheads

theres your blanket - and many, MANY hunters sleep under them both


If you shoot trad ? Get off your high horse, know that shooting a compound and killing deer IS much easier than your choice in bows, but it still isn't easy. As long as the technology wave doesn't shorten your season, your bag limits, or otherwise affects your bowhunting in any way, shape or form ? Don't worry about it, worry about YOUR hunting.

If you shoot a compound ? Get off your high horse, know that you're choosing a much easier weapon to shoot, and that while trad archers MIGHT wound more game ? Plenty enough are shot and lost with compounds. If YOUR seasons/bag limits etc isn't affected by those shooting real bows ? Don't worry about their hunting, worry about YOUR hunting.


I shot a compound for 13 years, then switched to trad for 3-4 years, and am shooting a compound again this year. I've wounded deer and killed deer with both. I can tell you 100% trad is much harder, and I can tell you 100% compounds are not easy.

Don't be frustrated, unless YOUR season is being impacted by someone elses choices in weapons.
[align=right]
[/align]I aggree with this quote in many ways...BUT......the part about "If YOUR seasons/bag limits etc isn't affected by those shooting real bows ? Don't worry about their hunting, worry about YOUR hunting."
That is what is exactly what is coming guys....The proficiency of these new compound bows pushing 350 FPSare incredible....i had one of the fastest bows in the world last year at this time, and i could use it well too!
It was an incredible piece of engineering.....

My problem was that as i looked around our hunting camp, and all the other archery hunting camps that i visited.....i noticed whileswapping stories and looking at everyones gear the vastdifference beteen "true archery hunters", and those just using a bow as a means to try and kill an animal.... I wont go into ethics or anything else....i even found myself harvesting elk at 60 yards, and shooting broad heads at 80 yards until it hit me last year that i was missing the boat here......i got disgusted with myself and sold that bow that the company that built it claimed proudly, "Taking the Arch out of Archery!" I decided i was going to put a whole bunch back in mine, and get back to the hunting part of it a bit more....I could have done the same thing using a com[pound bow too i guess....But i like the challange of the traditional equipment, and all the fun stuff that goes along with it.......I believe the amount of archers with rife hunting thinking are rising significantly out there.....seasons and regulations WILL be changed accordingly with high tech gear....like it or not guys...you can take that one to the bank.....When they do....i'll still be bow hunting now....

Please excuse my spelling here guys....darn spell check isn't working, and my spelling sucks!.....Kirk

RE: Frustrated!!!
 

These frustrations are nothing new. About 10 years ago, a group got together and decided it was time for traditional bowhunters to form their own organization and begin to create an identity for ourselves seperate and distinct from modern bowhunters. I think the first group was Compton's Traditional Bowhunters, then after a short while, the Association of Traditional Hunting Archers spun off of it. Might have been the other way around though. Brain fog. [&:]

I don't remember now which it was, but one or the other was more radical in their goals. One just wanted a seperate identity - which is what Compton's states as their goal on their website. The other wanted to go so far as getting seperate seasons for traditional bowhunting. ATHA is still hanging on, but the one that has done best is Compton's. That is the reason I believe ATHA was the more radical group. There is nothing about ATHA's goals or their history on their website.

I never joined either one, thinking it would be better to try to close the gap between traditional and modern rather than drive the wedge a little deeper. But the gap keeps widening every passing year anyway. Frankly, judging by the outrageous things I've been seeing on the bowhunting forum here over the past couple of years, I'm beginning to rethink my position and am really thinking hard about joining Compton's.

I'm already a member of Denton County Archers, a local traditional archery club here, and Traditional Bowhunters of Texas. Might as well go for the hat trick and do all three.

http://www.comptontraditional.com/