Are Carbon arrows traditional?
 

The idea of shooting carbons on my lighter draw weight longbow has been working on my mind. I know that in the IBO Trad LB division anything other than wood is forbidden. But, at fun and club shoots I see a ton of longbow shooters shooting 3 fingers under and carbons. These shooters are scoring very well and for me 3 fingers under sighting down the shaft is 100 times easier to shoot with pinpoint accuracy than split finger and instinctive or gap shooting.

I see threads on longbow hunters using carbons and there is little doubt that carbons have several advantages over the other shaft materials out there. What does the board think of traditional equipment launching high tech shafts?

RE: Are Carbon arrows traditional?
 

Man the arrow dynamic tapered shafts fly great off my crusader but man I love my wood!

Heck shoot what ya want, thats my saying anyways, its the hunter, not his equipment that makes him what he is!

RE: Are Carbon arrows traditional?
 

Dan what kind of arrow dynamics do you shoot I was thinking about getting some of the trad arrow but heard that they were way to stiff in spine. The trad lights would be ok but the company says they are for lighter weight bows and kustom king says they are for 60-70lb bows. I would love to just get one to try out but where do you get one arrow, and 100 bucks a dozen is a lot for a leap of faith.

RE: Are Carbon arrows traditional?
 

<font color=red>&quot;What does the board think of traditional equipment launching high tech shafts?&quot;</font id=red>

Doug Easton put the first aluminum shafts on the market in the 30's. This was before they even had glass laminations on bows.

Back in the 60's, fiberglass arrows were very popular (Micro-Flite, for example).

In summation, there's nothing &quot;untraditional&quot; about carbon arrows. <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

JRW

RE: Are Carbon arrows traditional?
 

JRW....I can't disagree with your comments but if carbon arrows are OK then why do organizations like the IBO mandate wood arrows in the traditional longbow class. To me, it appears as if the organization is not representing the mind set of it's members if truely they feel carbon arrows are acceptable.

In the same thought why a split finger release? 3 under sighting down the shaft is far easier and in most cases promotes greater accuracy (thus better shot placement on game...which is exactly what all archers want). Shouldn't a longbow class be just that? Why invoke other resrictions that could adversly affect the best possible shot placement the archer is capable of presenting.

I am sure you have seen many ex-compound shooters who were terrible with that equipment come to the traditional ranks hoping that poor accuracy will be more accepted in the traditional ranks. This shouldn't be anyones opinion of traditional archery though it runs rampant in the overall archery community. Shot placement is everything and the responsibility of all hunting archers. If organizations are supposed to represent us set up classes that adversely affect an archers maximum accuracy potentials isn't something wrong with that? Just a thought.

Could it be that in some way traditional archery is defined by some as they way Howard Hill or Fred Bear shot? Both excellent archers who did much for the sport, but the methods and equipment they used were the high end of technology for their time. Archery had a history thousands of years prior to these great archers. Is traditional archery locked into that specific time frame alone in the way we define the sport? Seems to be by the way organizations define our classes.

I'm really not sure myself as to where the lines should be drawn. I enjoy my longbows and cedar shafts but see carbon as the current most accurate efficient arrow on the market. I just thought I would start some conversation on this topic and see where it progressed.

Edited by - Jim DE on 11/22/2002 11:25:47

RE: Are Carbon arrows traditional?
 

I haven't posted on this forum for months now, but I want to address your last post, Jim.

Don't go confusing tournament rules with common sense. The way most rules come about is the old &quot;if you can't beat 'em, ban 'em&quot; method. When they split the longbow off the traditional class into it's own class, wood arrows was one of the limitations. If you want to shoot carbon, then shoot the recurve class. No big deal. The rule about having to shoot split finger and not 3-under is flat stupid. No redeeming value to that one, at all.

As tournament rules go, there is a bigtime longbow tournament here each spring that requires wood arrows and there are many rules and restrictions on bow configuration. They've loosened them, somewhat, over the past few years. When they first started, about the only bow that would qualify is a Howard Hill style straight limbed bow. When everyone is shooting the same kind of arrow and basically the same style of bow, the tournament is ALL about shooting skill and not about equipment choice. That's as it should be, in my opinion.

As pointed out, Easton aluminums have been around a lot longer than fiberglass backed bows. We had fiberglass arrows in the 60's. Carbon arrows are nothing more than a fiberglass arrow made out of carbon fiber instead of glass, so they're just as traditional as fiberglass. I've seen some pretty un-traditional rationale for shooting them though. Which I'll get to momentarily.

But, what really got my goat was your mention of rotten compound shooters that switch to traditional so their rotten accuracy won't be so noticeable. I don't doubt there are a few knuckleheads that switch for that reason, but I have not seen it, myself. What I HAVE seen, quite often, is compound shooters that have been struggling with these new techno wonder, ultra short, solo cammed, fiber optically sighted, mechanically released, high letoff, semi-crossbow, compounds that have switched to traditional and are having fun again. At least they're still shooting and as long as they're shooting, they're gaining experience and, hopefully, improving their accuracy.

Gaining accuracy with any bow does not depend on the equipment so much as it does the person. If you just go out and fling arrows, you will have fun but won't improve much. Improved accuracy is the result of consistent practice with a planned purpose. Many trads are going for the fun and hoping for accurate shooting. I hesitate to say it, but many (not all, by any means, but many) of them that are shooting carbon are only shooting them because they don't want to bend or break an arrow when they miss what they're shooting at. In other words, they're shooting carbon only BECAUSE THEY EXPECT TO MISS. That's the un-traditional rationale I mentioned earlier.

RE: Are Carbon arrows traditional?
 

Hey Arthur P, it's good to see you post again.

I'd have to say that, because carbon is the basis of everything natural in our world, that you can't get more traditional than carbon.



Make em sharp and shoot em straight, or leave em home.

RE: Are Carbon arrows traditional?
 

Hi Jim,

Why does there need to be a line drawn in the first place? General definitions of &quot;traditional&quot; are of things or practices handed down from from one generation to another. For me, it's a matter of shooting the types of bows that I find appealing ('curves and, ah, them staight thingys). <u>MY</u> traditional part of archery flows from a Grandmother who always had time to whittle arrows out of the kindling pile for her two grandsons, to use on their butchers-twine strung vine maple branch bows, and from my mother who shot a takedown fibreglas longbow with skinny little aluminum arrows (which she picked up in Hawaii in the late '50s). Add to the mix a neigbour who gave me my first &quot;real&quot; bow when I was about 8- a Pearson &quot;Old Hickery&quot; which my daughter still shoots today.

That's what I base &quot;traditional&quot; archery on. The rest is just a preference for bent pieces of wood and fibreglas and Dyna 97 strings. :) I like carbons and mess around with self nock woodies, because it's fun to make 'em.

But, my kids like to shoot so I figure I'm doing my part in fostering the &quot;traditional&quot; aspect of <u>my</u> family's involvement in archery.

RC

RE: Are Carbon arrows traditional?
 

There is no such thing as a &quot;Traditional&quot; arrow.

Your life is made of time, not money.

RE: Are Carbon arrows traditional?
 

Arthur, good to see you back. You saved me a lot of typing here. :)

JRW

RE: Are Carbon arrows traditional?
 

IBO is also allowing crossbows. So much for that argument. <img src=icon_smile_shock.gif border=0 align=middle> Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I like carbons and I shoot carbons. Course I like cedar and shoot cedar some times. And then I like the tin cans and shoot them some times too. And of course I like Chad and JRW so what the hell do I know! <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle> <img src=icon_smile_shy.gif border=0 align=middle> <img src=icon_smile_blush.gif border=0 align=middle> <img src=icon_smile_tongue.gif border=0 align=middle> <img src=icon_smile_evil.gif border=0 align=middle> <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>

Ted A. Young the kinder gentler COB

RE: Are Carbon arrows traditional?
 

Arthur, I apologize if a comment in my post &quot;got your goat&quot;. My intent of this thread was to ask why the &quot;cart was pushing the horses&quot;? I personally don't do competitive archery anymore and shoot Longbows with RRA cedars split fingered......too old to care who wins anymore ;-)

Observations locally have led me to see more Carbon arrows showing up in our Trad 3D shoots, more archers entering the sport and becoming frustrated being ex-IBO wheeled shooters having to shoot split fingered with wood because they are still of the &quot;Class&quot; mindset, and lesser archers (or as you call them high tech frustrated archers) coming to the Trad ranks in hope that lower levels of accuracy are accepted in the Trad ranks (to me this idea is the worst senario of all....and this isn't just an isolated case). The &quot;Cart&quot; (archery organizations that represent us) should be pulled by the &quot;Horses&quot; (those who shoot Trad equipment). If the trend today is to shoot Carbons or 3 fingers under in Hunting and 3D situations with longbows then the &quot;cart&quot; should support this if it is in the majority and a mainstream philosophy. It still is shooting a stickbow unaided.

Locally, these trends are becoming more and more prevelant.......I am curious if it is becoming that way in other regions?

RE: Are Carbon arrows traditional?
 

Around here, I've seen some all-traditional shoots that have split up into 4 different classes. They have recurve class, the standard longbow class, a primitive class for selfbows or sinew backed bows (also confined to wood arrows) and they have been throwing in a modern longbow class allowing all arrow materials.

Frankly, I don't see the point in having that 4th class. I've shot a longbow with aluminum arrows in recurve class many times and kicked butt. Besides, that's the problem with competitive archery these days. Too many flippin' classes. They could keep it up until they wind up with a class for every arrow type, bow type, aiming method, release technique...

&quot;Super Whammy Longbow - Limited to those who shoot carbon arrows out of centershot reflex/deflex longbows with recurve handles, off a flipper rest, 3-under, and are pre-draw gap shooters. Shooting 2-under, off the shelf and using a post draw gap is not allowed in this class. See Standard Whammy Longbow.&quot; <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

I'm like you. Been around a long time and have done my share of competition. Don't need any more.(But I will get serious about shooting if they give the winner first pick off the door prize table and there's a really nice knife on that table.) But I don't think they need to change the wood arrows rule for longbow class. Wood is what the people who shot longbow class demanded in the very beginning, when all the other arrow materials were available.

Now that stuff against 3-under and gap shooting... Never have been in favor of that. It's a bad attitude and it's hurting tradtional archery. A whole lot of folks would be shooting a whole lot better if they tried it. Quite frankly, I'm sick of the wheelbow shooters talking trash about trads that can't hit the broad side of a barn from inside the barn. Problem is, more often than not, they're right.

Too many myths floating around the trad ranks and people thinking you've got to shoot instinctive and split finger and not past 20 yards or you're not shooting trad. To be brutally blunt, that's a wagon load of horse dung.


Edited by - Arthur P on 11/24/2002 08:09:38

RE: Are Carbon arrows traditional?
 

I see we have much incommon in the way we view our sport.

Especially in the multitude of classes......what I was eluding to was less classes that reflect the the current trends and promote accuracy defined strickly by the bow type. Longbow as one class...recurve as the other. Both unaided. This would surely cut down the whining and allow the archer the latitude to shoot any arrow or any method of finger release he or she wants to maximize their enjoyment of the sport.

We also share the disgust on how the archery community views the traditional ranks. I also agree that in many cases they can base their opinions from what they see at shoots....this is why actions such as above would maximize an archers accuracy potential while using stickbows rather than giving the archer an excuse for lower accuracy. For some of the misguided they use the Traditional ranks to shield some weaknesses in their shooting and to give themselves a undeserved ego boost for their efforts. I'm sure everyone has seen this type of Trad shooter back at the clubhouse. I for one would like to take away their crutch and have them spend the time practicing their shooting to strive for accuracy and not cloud the reputation of Traditional Archery. Traditional shooting should never be an excuse.

RE: Are Carbon arrows traditional?
 

CUT DOWN THE WHINING!??!?! Lordy mercy, man, what are you trying to do? Ruin an aspect of target shooting that's become elevated to an art form? <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

RE: Are Carbon arrows traditional?
 

<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

RE: Are Carbon arrows traditional?
 

Fortunately the 3-D shoots around here are divide into 2 classes for stick shooters. Longbow and recurve. There are a multitude of classes for the wheel shooter. The only stipulation in the &quot;trad&quot; catagories is that you have to shoot unaided. None that I have been to give a rat's south end if you shoot cane or carbon, 3 under or 5 over. They are pretty much &quot;run what ya brung&quot; events. The exceptions are the BC trad championships and Trad Bowhunters of BC events. Here you have to shoot 'curves or lbs, and woodies with natural fletch, but everyone knows that going in so it's not an issue.

Also I have yet to go to a shoot that wasn't set up by some sadist dressed up as an archer, so no golf course style target placement. :)

RC

RE: Are Carbon arrows traditional?
 

Wow!
The different classes in 3-D shoots and all other &quot;Target&quot; games are only important if you feel you must &quot;Win&quot; a trophy. Personally, I threw all my trophies in the garbage a couple of years ago. All they do is collect dust. (Most weren't for archery) I shoot for three reasons. I shoot for fun, practice for hunting, and comradery. I'm not saying that I have fun when I don't shoot well but a trophy or prize in definately not what I'm looking for. I'm shooting against myself; striving for my personal best. Archery is archery! Shoot what ever you want. It's a preference! Dick

RE: Are Carbon arrows traditional?
 

Hi Jim De,

Must say you and I are thinking a lot alike concerning the present rules for Longbow shooters. I thought the idea of IBO 3D meets was to encourage the playing of an archery game that would make us better archers and hopefully better hunters. If the Longbow class we call traditional was really meant to be an &quot;English Longbow&quot; class then some of the regulations might make sense.

If the Longbow shooters want a nostalgic visit to the past, that's fine, but go all the way. Do the historical research on archery and accept practices and equipment no more modern than the 1930's. But, please let the new archers, like myself, know early on before they invest in bows, arrows, and hours upon hour of practice, that if they want to enter a 3D shoot all their practice time and money invested is wasted, because of someone's Romantic vision of a time gone bye.
Been in archery 1 year, retired, 68 years old and counting. Shooting a Roy Hall Navajo Scout Longbow (outlawed) with a seal skin rest (outlawed)and shooting Easton Legacy arrows,(outlawed)pulling 3-under(outlawed) I waited all these years just to become a criminal (grin)

RE: Are Carbon arrows traditional?
 

Hi Jim De,

Must say you and I are thinking a lot alike concerning the present rules for Longbow shooters. I thought the idea of IBO 3D meets was to encourage the playing of an archery game that would make us better archers and hopefully better hunters. If the Longbow class we call traditional was really meant to be an &quot;English Longbow&quot; class then some of the regulations might make sense.

If the Longbow shooters want a nostalgic visit to the past, that's fine, but go all the way. Do the historical research on archery and accept practices and equipment no more modern than the 1930's. But, please let the new archers, like myself, know early on before they invest in bows, arrows, and hours upon hour of practice, that if they want to enter a 3D shoot all their practice time and money invested is wasted, because of someone's Romantic vision of a time gone bye.
Been in archery 1 year, retired, 68 years old and counting. Shooting a Roy Hall Navajo Scout Longbow (outlawed) with a seal skin rest (outlawed)and shooting Easton Legacy arrows,(outlawed)pulling 3-under(outlawed) I waited all these years just to become a criminal (grin)

RE: Are Carbon arrows traditional?
 

THAT'S IT!!!! Perfect name for a new class.... Outlaw Traditional! Only for shooters that use aiming/shooting techniques, bow designs and arrow materials that are illegal for the other traditional classes. :D

RE: Are Carbon arrows traditional?
 

Arthur, &quot;Outlaw Traditional&quot; it may have to be <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>


If all Canadian shoots were shot as TC stated Longbow or Recurve I think they have the right idea. With no other limitations than an unaided stick it allows the participants to maximize their individual shooting efficiencies. Why force shooters to stay inside the box so to speak just so those who feel our sport stopped evolving during the time Howard Hill shot can justify their interpretation of the word Traditional as it refers to archery. If we were forced to use our equipment to put food on our tables for our family....we would shoot what ever style or equipment was our most efficient.

Efficiency for me would then be Claymores wired to a IR Trail Event Timer :)
Say cheese MR Venison!

[Deleted]
 

[Deleted by Admins]

RE: Are Carbon arrows traditional?
 

Seems to me that the reason you got so many classes and such is because if they didn't some jerk, with terminal trophy cravings, would show up with a bow mounted on a gun carriage and claim it was traditional because the Chinese used them 2000 years ago.

Just stop a minute and think about it. More rules happen because people don't follow the rules that are already there. Winning is everything for you guys so don't act like you don't understand what's happening or why.

RE: Are Carbon arrows traditional?
 

Rita,
Winning isn't everything to me or my hunting buddies. Bringing home venison still isn't everything but I like it more than winning a 3-D shoot. Being out in the woods and enjoying good company IS the most important about the sport. I must say that there are some who will do anything to win (Even Cheat). That's not for me. Please don't try and fit everyone in the same mold. Dick

RE: Are Carbon arrows traditional?
 

Hi Rita......Obviously I failed to get my point across.

I have been active in archery for more than 40 years. In my youth winning was everything. I competed in the NFAA, NAA, PAA, and finally the IBO. I shot a LB at first...then curves....then wheels starting with the old Jennings Model I and ran the gammit through all the high tech equipment I could get my hands on until archery was no longer fun. When it became mentally more draining than the worse day at work it was then the competition fires went out for me and I turned my back on archery all together for almost 4 years.

I knew I needed to get back to shooting arrows again but I also knew that I wanted it to be fun. I looked back at when I enjoyed shooting the most and found it was in my youth with my old Bear longbow. When I returned it was with a Longbow in hand with no desire to compete ever again. This path I have chosen has been the most fun I can ever recall in my years with a bow and an arrow.

My point of this topic was to basically ask why organization which are supposed to represent us....don't! Club shoots show the real heart of the archers who prefer to shoot sticks. More and more I see archer enjoying this sport using techniques and equipment deemed illegal in classes set up for these shooters to shoot in by organizations who are attempting to define the sport for its users rather than the other way around. The cart shouldn't push the team of horses! IMO it is and at the expence of allowing the archers to maximize their personal accuracy potentials and ultimately their enjoyment of the sport.

Less rules and less classes will cut down the whining and really eliminate the cheating. For cheating is breaking the rules....with fewer rules there are less to break thus less cheating.

To say all we care about is winning.....couldn't be further from the truth for myself and those I share my shooting times with.

RE: Are Carbon arrows traditional?
 

Jim, over the past 15 years I've been tournament director for somewhere around 100 events. BELIEVE ME, I've heard more whining and complaining from the wheelbow guys in each tournament than I've heard from trads in all those events combined.

I've seen that most trads are only at the tournament to shoot arrows and BS with their friends, and to make new friends along the way. In fact, quite a few of 'em (even some that I've known for years and are deadly accurate shots) don't turn in a score. Most of 'em will take a trophy if they get lucky enough to win one. Only a very few are actually on an all-out mission to win a $15 hunk of wood and plastic. Those are the guys who wind up joining the big organizations and start raising a major stink to get the restrictive rules passed by the orgs.

Unfortunate, but that's the nature of the beast in competitive archery.

If enough people were interested in getting the rules changed to allow all arrow types and legalizing 3-under, then joined the major orgs (IBO and ASA) and raised their own major stink to get the changes, the rules would change.