Papertuning
08-28-2006, 06:18 AM
#1
Guest
Posts: n/a
Papertuning
Finally got serious about tuning my cedars. First off they were too long, which in turn showed a severely stiff condition (opposite what you expect). Secondly, nocking point too low (1/2" over center) and I was hitting my shelf and had this 3" vertical tear. So I finally took the time to paper tune. And found a bad vertical tear nock up with 3 finger under shooting. But fine split finger. Moved nock up like 1/4" and now finally I have rid myself of the poiposing but still need to play, have a 1/2" vert tear. Now since changing to a 450plus string, I shot a slight weak reaction but still have another inch I can take off.
Don't discount paper tuning. I have no problem fixing one problem on a compound or anybow, but anytime you throw in 2 or more, I struggle. I guess I should have trusted 3rivers archery charts cedars, and cut my arrows to 30" off the bat and had 1" to play with. Secondly, I think I am going to always tuning compounds or traditions with nock higher than normal and work down. This hitting the riser/shelf thing has bit me before with other bows.
Don't discount paper tuning. I have no problem fixing one problem on a compound or anybow, but anytime you throw in 2 or more, I struggle. I guess I should have trusted 3rivers archery charts cedars, and cut my arrows to 30" off the bat and had 1" to play with. Secondly, I think I am going to always tuning compounds or traditions with nock higher than normal and work down. This hitting the riser/shelf thing has bit me before with other bows.
08-28-2006, 06:29 AM
#2
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: A flat lander lost in the mountains of Northern,AZ
Posts: 3,171
RE: Papertuning
ORIGINAL: bigcountry
Finally got serious about tuning my cedars. First off they were too long, which in turn showed a severely stiff condition (opposite what you expect). Secondly, nocking point too low (1/2" over center) and I was hitting my shelf and had this 3" vertical tear. So I finally took the time to paper tune. And found a bad vertical tear nock up with 3 finger under shooting. But fine split finger. Moved nock up like 1/4" and now finally I have rid myself of the poiposing but still need to play, have a 1/2" vert tear. Now since changing to a 450plus string, I shot a slight weak reaction but still have another inch I can take off.
Don't discount paper tuning. I have no problem fixing one problem on a compound or anybow, but anytime you throw in 2 or more, I struggle. I guess I should have trusted 3rivers archery charts cedars, and cut my arrows to 30" off the bat and had 1" to play with. Secondly, I think I am going to always tuning compounds or traditions with nock higher than normal and work down. This hitting the riser/shelf thing has bit me before with other bows.
Finally got serious about tuning my cedars. First off they were too long, which in turn showed a severely stiff condition (opposite what you expect). Secondly, nocking point too low (1/2" over center) and I was hitting my shelf and had this 3" vertical tear. So I finally took the time to paper tune. And found a bad vertical tear nock up with 3 finger under shooting. But fine split finger. Moved nock up like 1/4" and now finally I have rid myself of the poiposing but still need to play, have a 1/2" vert tear. Now since changing to a 450plus string, I shot a slight weak reaction but still have another inch I can take off.
Don't discount paper tuning. I have no problem fixing one problem on a compound or anybow, but anytime you throw in 2 or more, I struggle. I guess I should have trusted 3rivers archery charts cedars, and cut my arrows to 30" off the bat and had 1" to play with. Secondly, I think I am going to always tuning compounds or traditions with nock higher than normal and work down. This hitting the riser/shelf thing has bit me before with other bows.
08-28-2006, 08:00 AM
#3
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: West Bloomfield Michigan USA
Posts: 262
RE: Papertuning
I paper tune all my bows (FITA & Longbows) exclusively. I start at 5yrds to allow for initial paradox. Once I've got a bullet hole I back up to 15, 20, and 30yrds to verify. I'm too lazy to mess with bareshaft tuning anymore.
08-28-2006, 10:32 AM
#4
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location:
Posts: 7,571
RE: Papertuning
Personally, I stay away from papertuning with trad equipment. I like Kelly's method about the best,
http://www.arrowsbykelly.com/Tuning.html
http://www.arrowsbykelly.com/Tuning.html
08-28-2006, 11:42 AM
#5
Guest
Posts: n/a
RE: Papertuning
ORIGINAL: BobCo19-65
Personally, I stay away from papertuning with trad equipment. I like Kelly's method about the best,
http://www.arrowsbykelly.com/Tuning.html
Personally, I stay away from papertuning with trad equipment. I like Kelly's method about the best,
http://www.arrowsbykelly.com/Tuning.html
08-28-2006, 12:08 PM
#6
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location:
Posts: 7,571
RE: Papertuning
Well unfortunately thats what I have been doing since Febuary, now after one day in the yard, my arrows are flying faster, straighter than they ever have. I guess whatever works.
FWIW, Here is a very, very good and interesting read. This is quotedfrom OL Adcock:
The "kick" method of bare shafting and paper tuning are one in the same but for the most part I don't feel are good methods cause there are too many things that can cause a kick or bad tear that have nothing to do with spine. You can be way off on spine and get a bad release that shoots bullet holes occasionaly. What does that tell you??
First keep in mind "paradox" from a properly tuned arrow is NOT a side to side motion, it's a vibration, an oscilation, a "ringing", "noodling" if you will just like plucking a guitar string. Those occure with the greatest amplitude as soon as it leaves the string and dampens down range. How fast they dampen depends on the arrow material and it's shape. Tapered objects don't "ring" well...Carbon doesn't "ring" well. Some woods ring better then others. Aluminum is terrible...Ever heard that loose point rattle all the way to a 60 yard target?? That's paradox you are listening to as the shaft vibrates all the way to the target. Pardaox at any distance shoots bullet holes.
What we are trying to fix is those oscilations being out of time with the bow that cause the arrow to be out of line with the direction it was aimed to start with. This tuning stuff is more akin to acustics then any other branch of physics. Changing materials or stiffness changes the timing...Changing length...Mass distribution (point weight/taper)...Brace height...String mass...Draw length...Draw weight ...Centershot....Our form which includes grip on the bow and release...All get involved to change the timing.
In a perfect world we should be able to shoot bullet holes in paper from any distance but the truth is even the best shooters can't do it consistantly with any rhyme or reason to it. When you do get a bad tear, what caused it?? Especially when the next one is a bullet hole and the next is opposite the first?? The biggest problem with paper tuning is it's a PIA to shoot enough shots to get a good average. If most of 20 shots are kicking left...Good bet they are weak but a person needs to shoot a lot of shots to come to that conclusion. Making changes based on just 2 or 3 shots can result in a lot of tail chasing. Wood arrows.....a 5# spine range IS going to result in kicks you have no control over.
The good news is feathers do a pretty good job straighting things out be it caused by spine or us. Even a mixture of multiple spines will group pretty well and will group pretty close to where aimed with field points. Better news is wide broadheads or bare shafts won't. Shooting those in conjunction with fletched field tips tells you exactly what is wrong without having to change paper after every few shots. Form screw ups are completely out of the picture cause form can't cause field tips to group one place and broadheads (or bare shafts) another.
Those of you breaking shafts while bare shafting...That's cause you are so far off in spine. Start close and keep backing up making corrections along the way. Do it right and you can shoot fletched field tips, wide broadheads, and bare shafts all in the same group from as far as you can shoot a group. That IS the test for good tuning. I've seen this done at 100 yards but 20 or 30 yards is pretty good. With that done, your bow/arrows are as good as they can be leaving only our form problems to work on. And removing a whole lot of excuses for missing!
....O.L.
First keep in mind "paradox" from a properly tuned arrow is NOT a side to side motion, it's a vibration, an oscilation, a "ringing", "noodling" if you will just like plucking a guitar string. Those occure with the greatest amplitude as soon as it leaves the string and dampens down range. How fast they dampen depends on the arrow material and it's shape. Tapered objects don't "ring" well...Carbon doesn't "ring" well. Some woods ring better then others. Aluminum is terrible...Ever heard that loose point rattle all the way to a 60 yard target?? That's paradox you are listening to as the shaft vibrates all the way to the target. Pardaox at any distance shoots bullet holes.
What we are trying to fix is those oscilations being out of time with the bow that cause the arrow to be out of line with the direction it was aimed to start with. This tuning stuff is more akin to acustics then any other branch of physics. Changing materials or stiffness changes the timing...Changing length...Mass distribution (point weight/taper)...Brace height...String mass...Draw length...Draw weight ...Centershot....Our form which includes grip on the bow and release...All get involved to change the timing.
In a perfect world we should be able to shoot bullet holes in paper from any distance but the truth is even the best shooters can't do it consistantly with any rhyme or reason to it. When you do get a bad tear, what caused it?? Especially when the next one is a bullet hole and the next is opposite the first?? The biggest problem with paper tuning is it's a PIA to shoot enough shots to get a good average. If most of 20 shots are kicking left...Good bet they are weak but a person needs to shoot a lot of shots to come to that conclusion. Making changes based on just 2 or 3 shots can result in a lot of tail chasing. Wood arrows.....a 5# spine range IS going to result in kicks you have no control over.
The good news is feathers do a pretty good job straighting things out be it caused by spine or us. Even a mixture of multiple spines will group pretty well and will group pretty close to where aimed with field points. Better news is wide broadheads or bare shafts won't. Shooting those in conjunction with fletched field tips tells you exactly what is wrong without having to change paper after every few shots. Form screw ups are completely out of the picture cause form can't cause field tips to group one place and broadheads (or bare shafts) another.
Those of you breaking shafts while bare shafting...That's cause you are so far off in spine. Start close and keep backing up making corrections along the way. Do it right and you can shoot fletched field tips, wide broadheads, and bare shafts all in the same group from as far as you can shoot a group. That IS the test for good tuning. I've seen this done at 100 yards but 20 or 30 yards is pretty good. With that done, your bow/arrows are as good as they can be leaving only our form problems to work on. And removing a whole lot of excuses for missing!
....O.L.
08-28-2006, 06:43 PM
#7
Guest
Posts: n/a
RE: Papertuning
Good article. I paper tuned to fixed major issues, major consistent tears. I just don't have great luck bare shaft tuning cedars.
What I did was shoot 8 arrows, and sure some were bullet holes, but 6 out of the 8 had a high tear. Move the nock down, do it again. In fact take a 5 hour break, and try it again. Move slow, and don't make your conclutions off one arrow, or one quiver full.
I just don't have the eye to spot arrow flight problems. I see folks that do.
What I did was shoot 8 arrows, and sure some were bullet holes, but 6 out of the 8 had a high tear. Move the nock down, do it again. In fact take a 5 hour break, and try it again. Move slow, and don't make your conclutions off one arrow, or one quiver full.
I just don't have the eye to spot arrow flight problems. I see folks that do.
08-29-2006, 03:29 PM
#9
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Howard PA USA
Posts: 2,221
RE: Papertuning
I usually use a conbination of paper tuning and the method from the arrows by kelly website. I initially just use a piece of tape as a nocking point and then shoot the arrows at 20yds and watch what kind of flight i'm getting. I will adjust my nocking point and anything else at this point until good flight is achieved. Then I will shoot through paper to veryify my results. 9 times out of 10 the paper tears will be near perfect with maybe a slight adjustment needing to be made to the nock point. This is just what seems to work for me.
08-30-2006, 12:01 PM
#10
Guest
Posts: n/a
RE: Papertuning
ORIGINAL: Double Creek
They all work, but I've found bare shaft group testing to be the easiest and fastest way to tune my bow.
They all work, but I've found bare shaft group testing to be the easiest and fastest way to tune my bow.
I still stuggle with the basics.
