An Omega Weakness...
09-06-2007, 08:17 PM
#1
Boone & Crockett
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Idaho
Posts: 11,703
An Omega Weakness...
Several months ago we were discussing the Omega and the possible problems with the synthetic stocks that come with the gun. Well it came up again the other day with an Omega with a synthetic stock getting different points of impact - and I believe this is occuring becuse of the stock. So I tried to put it in writing - It did get long....
The Omega… A weakness is the black synthetic stock supplied with the gun. The same black stock is provided from the less expensive Z5 model to the more expensive Stainless steel models.
The weaknesses of this stock’ IMO, are the flexible forearm and the shallow recoil lug pockets in the stock. In fact you should inspect these lug pockets each time you take your rifle down for cleaning. These pockets can crack and will allow the barreled action to move on recoil, TC will warranty your stock if these cracks appear. Another thing you should look for in your stock is a polish mark(s) along the barrel channel in the stock. If these marks are appearing, that is the point at which the barrel is making heavier contact with the stock than other places and will cause the POI to move.
It is my opinion that I would prefer a barreled action that fits snugly in the stock with equal pressure on all points along the barrel, in other words fully bedded or a heavier stock that will not flex. This is expensive for a manufacturer to do when producing mass production rifles so for them the least expensive alternative is to produce stocks that provide a free floating barrel.
Normally when you purchase a synthetic Omega the barreled action will fit somewhat snugly in the stock. It will not remain that way over time and even though it might seem snug it is not equal.
There really is not a lot we can do about the flexibility of the stock especially in the forearm, but there are things that can be done to reduce its effects of the forearm pushing on the barrel.
The easiest fix is to float the barrel, move the barrel from contact with the barrel channel in the stock. One of the time tested ways of checking “floating” is to slide a dollar bill under the barrel from the fore-end back to the receiver, leave the ram rod in place.
To float the barrel – in my mind to methods one is much simpler than the other but really both are on the easy side.
Method #1… Simply shim the barreled up in the stock. I did this for a couple of seasons before I moved to the second easy step. Place a shim in the recoil lug pocket this will lift the action up and cause the barrel to lift in the stock. I made my shims from one of my wife’s Teflon cutting sheets. It is the perfect thickness, and everyone knows the durability of Teflon. Cut the shim to fit snugly in the bottom of the lug pocket punch a hole in the center of the shim for the lug bolt and install the barreled action. You should now be able to easily slide the dollar bill to slide under the barrel to the action. NOTE: because the pockets are so shallow I would not lift the action any higher than the thickness of one of these shims, and I suggest the reinforcement of the lug pockets as discussed later.
Method #2… Sand the barrel channel to fit the barrel. This is not as easy as it sounds but start by sanding the polished marks out of the barreled channel. As you remove these pressure points they will be replaced by other pressure points along the barrel. You will then continue to sand out points until the barrel sits snugly in the stock along its length, and further shooting does not cause further polished points.
Another simple fix you might consider… Look at the recoil pockets in the stock. It is a very simple fix to reinforce the lug pockets. This fix will stop the possible front to back movement of the action and probably stop the cracking of the pockets. I would suggest that you fill the area between the pockets with a fiberglass compound. Fill to the top of the two pockets, when this dries and hardens you will have really reinforced the strength of the pockets and the stock.
I did also decided today that I would spend some time and develop a hardwood block to take the place of fiberglass fill and also allow me to get a deep fron lug pocket. The discussion of this block also happened several months ago and I can not remember who all is/was involved.... but... prototype #1 is done and in place in my new stock. It will reinforce the walls of the lug pockets and it does increase the deapth of the front lug pocket.
Truly the best fix… Have the barreled action bedded in glass, both the action and the barrel. I am just not sure the expense of this operation justifies what might be gained for a hunting rifle.
If this were a competition target shooter, bedding could be and would be justified.
Here are some pics... hope some of this makes sense...
The Omega… A weakness is the black synthetic stock supplied with the gun. The same black stock is provided from the less expensive Z5 model to the more expensive Stainless steel models.
The weaknesses of this stock’ IMO, are the flexible forearm and the shallow recoil lug pockets in the stock. In fact you should inspect these lug pockets each time you take your rifle down for cleaning. These pockets can crack and will allow the barreled action to move on recoil, TC will warranty your stock if these cracks appear. Another thing you should look for in your stock is a polish mark(s) along the barrel channel in the stock. If these marks are appearing, that is the point at which the barrel is making heavier contact with the stock than other places and will cause the POI to move.
It is my opinion that I would prefer a barreled action that fits snugly in the stock with equal pressure on all points along the barrel, in other words fully bedded or a heavier stock that will not flex. This is expensive for a manufacturer to do when producing mass production rifles so for them the least expensive alternative is to produce stocks that provide a free floating barrel.
Normally when you purchase a synthetic Omega the barreled action will fit somewhat snugly in the stock. It will not remain that way over time and even though it might seem snug it is not equal.
There really is not a lot we can do about the flexibility of the stock especially in the forearm, but there are things that can be done to reduce its effects of the forearm pushing on the barrel.
The easiest fix is to float the barrel, move the barrel from contact with the barrel channel in the stock. One of the time tested ways of checking “floating” is to slide a dollar bill under the barrel from the fore-end back to the receiver, leave the ram rod in place.
To float the barrel – in my mind to methods one is much simpler than the other but really both are on the easy side.
Method #1… Simply shim the barreled up in the stock. I did this for a couple of seasons before I moved to the second easy step. Place a shim in the recoil lug pocket this will lift the action up and cause the barrel to lift in the stock. I made my shims from one of my wife’s Teflon cutting sheets. It is the perfect thickness, and everyone knows the durability of Teflon. Cut the shim to fit snugly in the bottom of the lug pocket punch a hole in the center of the shim for the lug bolt and install the barreled action. You should now be able to easily slide the dollar bill to slide under the barrel to the action. NOTE: because the pockets are so shallow I would not lift the action any higher than the thickness of one of these shims, and I suggest the reinforcement of the lug pockets as discussed later.
Method #2… Sand the barrel channel to fit the barrel. This is not as easy as it sounds but start by sanding the polished marks out of the barreled channel. As you remove these pressure points they will be replaced by other pressure points along the barrel. You will then continue to sand out points until the barrel sits snugly in the stock along its length, and further shooting does not cause further polished points.
Another simple fix you might consider… Look at the recoil pockets in the stock. It is a very simple fix to reinforce the lug pockets. This fix will stop the possible front to back movement of the action and probably stop the cracking of the pockets. I would suggest that you fill the area between the pockets with a fiberglass compound. Fill to the top of the two pockets, when this dries and hardens you will have really reinforced the strength of the pockets and the stock.
I did also decided today that I would spend some time and develop a hardwood block to take the place of fiberglass fill and also allow me to get a deep fron lug pocket. The discussion of this block also happened several months ago and I can not remember who all is/was involved.... but... prototype #1 is done and in place in my new stock. It will reinforce the walls of the lug pockets and it does increase the deapth of the front lug pocket.
Truly the best fix… Have the barreled action bedded in glass, both the action and the barrel. I am just not sure the expense of this operation justifies what might be gained for a hunting rifle.
If this were a competition target shooter, bedding could be and would be justified.
Here are some pics... hope some of this makes sense...
09-06-2007, 08:36 PM
#2
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 6,585
RE: An Omega Weakness...
Well that sounds like quite a project, Do you have any ideas on what causes the problem? I have been shooting mine for two years now with some 150gr loads so far no problem, will it come in time? I am careful about not over tightening the stock to barrel screws. I sure hope it dont develope a problem it shoots one hole groups on a quite day with good light and no strong wind and I would like it to stay that way, my Triumph don't seem to like what I want for hunting loads it will shoot nice groups but they start to spread out when I go over 110 gr. Any ideas on how to get it to keep the group with a stronger load? Lee
09-06-2007, 08:52 PM
#3
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location:
Posts: 5,180
RE: An Omega Weakness...
ORIGINAL: sabotloader
Another thing you should look for in your stock is a polish mark(s) along the barrel channel in the stock. If these marks are appearing, that is the point at which the barrel is making heavier contact with the stock than other places and will cause the POI to move.
Another thing you should look for in your stock is a polish mark(s) along the barrel channel in the stock. If these marks are appearing, that is the point at which the barrel is making heavier contact with the stock than other places and will cause the POI to move.
Brass engine bearing shim will also do the trick for floating the barrel.
09-06-2007, 08:57 PM
#4
Boone & Crockett
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Idaho
Posts: 11,703
RE: An Omega Weakness...
LEE
No, not really - it took a couple of hours to sand and build the block... The shim project would take 15/20 minutes..
The biggest problem is the forearm in the stock is so flexible and it does move - I hate to use the word warp but I really think it sometimes does and puts an unequal amount of pressure on the barrel. - of course free floating takes care of the POI problem...
That is exactly what I did, but that is what the local gun smith says probably caused the stock to crack. He was very vocal about the gun moving from recoil with lightly tightened screws. If the gun were bedded in a metal then the problem might not develope. This my second stock and I now tighten the screws very snug. With the hard wood block installed it will not matter that much the is no front back movement at all now even with the screws out.
The reason, I would speculate, is the "harmonic resonating" that the bullet sets up in the barrel. With the stronger charges the resonating is greater. What length barrel does the Triumph have? How is the barreled action set in the stock? I guess I am assuming that it is set in the same way as the Omega... so it really does not have a floating barrel and yet it really is not bedded or equal.
+Do you have a synthetic stock or a laminated?
If you want to experiment take a strip of the teflon cutting board and set it under the barrel @ the fore-end (between the barrel and the stock) this will increase the rigidity of the barrel and change the resonating. It will change you POI but it might tighten your group..
Just some thoughts but you are a whole more scoocum to this stuff than I.
Well that sounds like quite a project
Do you have any ideas on what causes the problem
I am careful about not over tightening the stock to barrel screws.
my Triumph don't seem to like what I want for hunting loads it will shoot nice groups but they start to spread out when I go over 110 gr. Any ideas on how to get it to keep the group with a stronger load?
+Do you have a synthetic stock or a laminated?
If you want to experiment take a strip of the teflon cutting board and set it under the barrel @ the fore-end (between the barrel and the stock) this will increase the rigidity of the barrel and change the resonating. It will change you POI but it might tighten your group..
Just some thoughts but you are a whole more scoocum to this stuff than I.
09-06-2007, 09:07 PM
#5
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 6,585
RE: An Omega Weakness...
sabotloader, the triump has a break open set up something like an encore,the fore arm is mounted to the barrel with two screws,the receiver is metal,all triumph's have a synthtic stock I wanted a wood laminated and could not get it. Lee
09-06-2007, 09:21 PM
#6
Boone & Crockett
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Idaho
Posts: 11,703
RE: An Omega Weakness...
LEE
Well, that shows you how much ML shopping I have been doing lately....
So now i really can not help you.. .but to relate a story.... the Ruger #1 guys are always swearing at the forearms.... They have developed a real science just to installing the forearm to preserve accuracy, for them it makes a mjor difference in how their guns shoot...
Well, that shows you how much ML shopping I have been doing lately....
So now i really can not help you.. .but to relate a story.... the Ruger #1 guys are always swearing at the forearms.... They have developed a real science just to installing the forearm to preserve accuracy, for them it makes a mjor difference in how their guns shoot...
09-07-2007, 05:11 AM
#7
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location:
Posts: 3,246
RE: An Omega Weakness...
ORIGINAL: sabotloader
LEE
Well, that shows you how much ML shopping I have been doing lately....
So now i really can not help you.. .but to relate a story.... the Ruger #1 guys are always swearing at the forearms.... They have developed a real science just to installing the forearm to preserve accuracy, for them it makes a mjor difference in how their guns shoot...
LEE
Well, that shows you how much ML shopping I have been doing lately....
So now i really can not help you.. .but to relate a story.... the Ruger #1 guys are always swearing at the forearms.... They have developed a real science just to installing the forearm to preserve accuracy, for them it makes a mjor difference in how their guns shoot...
The Savage 10ML has an issue with the plastic stock. You have to take a screw out to remove the bold, unless you place this back in with the exact number of turns or ft/lbs or in-ounces it will change POI. Most guys buy a tourque screw driver or they have a tool for $40 so you don't have to remove the bolt. Plastic stock are OK, but they are not excellent and low maintenance, they have issues. Chap
09-07-2007, 05:28 AM
#9
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location:
Posts: 3,246
RE: An Omega Weakness...
ORIGINAL: Wolfhound76
It's because Thompson Center puts cheap synthetic stocks on their rifles. It's one of the biggest negatives about T/C. Maybe if enough people complained they'd fix it.
It's because Thompson Center puts cheap synthetic stocks on their rifles. It's one of the biggest negatives about T/C. Maybe if enough people complained they'd fix it.
Chap
09-07-2007, 07:02 AM
#10
Typical Buck
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Mesa, Arizona
Posts: 986
RE: An Omega Weakness...
Since we are talking about Omega "problems" I will add one that I found on mine due to another post that I have since lost track of. My Omega started to have big POI shifts due to stock removal (or so I thought). Someone posted a note saying to check the front stock screw mount as it is screwed to the barrel. I thought it was welded as the rear is but I was wrong. I never looked at that part of the rifle that closely before. Mine will turn left and right a little although the two screws appear to be tight. I plan to remove the screws add some epoxy between the mount and the barrel and reinstall the screws with blue loc-tite. I am not sure that this is the only reason for the shift but it certainly is not a desirable situation. I also bought a torque screwdriver which I am now going to use when removing and reinstalling the stock. The two screws are slightly burred which makes me think the assembly person did not do a good job since the screws have not been touched by me since I bought the rifle. Being able to turn the block with the screws apparently tight bothers me a little.