Help with speed
 

Whats ups, I have a question about my arrow speed. I have a parker phenoix 34 with a 28' draw. I am using a wisker busquit and cx terminator express arrows. The bow is set to 64 lb. My arrow speed was only 215, I thought it would be faster than that. It looks like the screws for the poundage is about at thier max but it should have 6 more lbs. I think thw wisker busiquit is slowing the arrows down too, anyone have any suggestions on a better setup? I hear a lot about fall aways or just regular prongs. Anyone prefer one or the other/ brand? I am new to compounds so i am just looking for some good advice. Thanks

RE: Help with speed
 

Well the rest you are using is going to slow it down. You do not mention arrow weight so I do not know if you are shooting a heavy arrow. 28" draw is going to slow it a little too. I do not know the IBO of the bow you are shooting but it may not be a fast bow to begin with. Having said all that. If you are using the bow for hunting it should not be a problem shooting that speed. You will be able to harvest big game just fine.

RE: Help with speed
 

Oops forgot to add:
I have the HHA dropaway and I will not go back to a prong type rest. HHA has a lifetime warranty on its rests (actually I think it is on all of HHA products but I am not sure).

RE: Help with speed
 

Realmfg,

The WB rest is unlikely to slow your arrows down more than an insignificant couple of fps. How heavy are your arrows with tips? I am unfamiliar with your bow, so maybe it's not designed to shoot a real fast arrow. I wouldn't worry about it unless you're shooting field tips in 3-D competitions. The are tons of great hunting set-ups shooting in the same range as yours. My own is only slightly faster, and I have a longer draw length.

RE: Help with speed
 

Here is the specs on the bows speed AVERAGE ARROW SPEED - IBO - 310 fps AMO - 235 fps
Arrows cx terminator hunters 12.0 grains per inch 0.311" diameter ± .005" strightness
I have 100 grain field tips on them.

Thanks for the help!

RE: Help with speed
 

Speed being a relative thing I can say this. If my calculations are correct your arrow should be right around 500gr. Yes, that is heavy by today's standards of achieving speed. You could easily drop 100 grain of arrow eight and gain about 20fps. And anything on the string slows the bow down also. Brass nocksets rob you of about 4fps each. A peep with a tube vs one without is about another 10fps. A kisser is another 5fps. String silencers, although necessary can vary speed depending on how close they are from the cams. Then the WB usually averages 5 to 7fps. How long is your center serving? I keep mine about 3 1/2" long vs the standard 7"--gain about another 3-4fps. Some of these might seem like much, but added together make a lot.

All these things adjusted down to get the best performance and you should not have much problem getting a realistic figure of 250-260fps. My SlayR set up at 27" and 53#, shooting 5gr/lb is doing 295fps. When I shoot a heavier arrow for a hunting setup it does right at 280fps. Amazing, isn't it?

RE: Help with speed
 

I do have a peep sight with tube, kisser button, string leeches. My center serving is around the average 7. I guess my arrows are a little heavy.

RE: Help with speed
 

what hunting arrows would you suggest? I got tehse cx terminator hunters because they were half off of 80$ Maybe i should scratch em.

RE: Help with speed
 

realmfg,

I'm going to make some suggestions that you may or may not follow. The choice is yours. I don't recommend things because I use them. In this case I don't shoot these arrows. I make the suggestions because I know what I'm doing.

Your quest for speed means one thing. Put your arrows in the box labeled- OOPs. You may use them later when you get a faster bow. I used the arrow calculator on www.bowjackson.com and then Gold Tip. Your Termiators should weigh right at 485gr. That's heavy. And your FOC comes to 7.3% which isn't good for a hunting arrow.

I suggest you get some Gold Tip XT 5575's w/4" feathers. With standard insert and 100gr heads they should weigh about 349gr and give you an FOC of 10.9%. Much better specs for hunting and target and still enough weight for deer. If you'd like you can still shave a little weight with lighter points such as 75gr, but that's the lower limit for warranty purposes.

The tradeoff is that your bow is going to be noisier. Bows produce a certain amount of energy. What doesn't go into launching the arrow stays in the bow as vibration which causes noise. Be ready to add Limb Savers and such to help with this. A good active stabilizer will help, too. This is all controllable.

OK, now how much speed is all this going to get you? By my calculations you should gain between 25 and 30fps just with the arrow change alone.

There is more you can do, too, that doesn't cost as much as arrows. Get a Fletcher True Peep with the big hole. Replace the peep and tube. Now getting the True Peep to rotate right takes some playing, but to get it facing straight back all you have to do is move some strands from side to side so it's rotated properly at full draw. THEN serve it in after you've shot it and settled things in.
Then once you've gotten used to the new peep then you can get rid of the kisser button. Kissers are an unecessary piece of added weight on the bowstring. But before you remove it understand this. You must have a pretty solid anchor, such as your index finger along the jawbone. Can you shoot with your nose on the string? This is a good indicator that you are anchored well. Think about it. Your finger(s) along the jawbone, your lips kissing the string, your nose touching the string, and a peep to look through. That's four reference points. Why do you need a kisser button?

Notice I said "Your lips kissing the string"? Most guys drag a kisser button back to the corner of their mouth and some even beyond. I ask, "Do you kiss you wife with the corner of your mouth"? Why do you think it's called a kisser button? Touch it to the front of your lips, in which case you don't need it for anything. LESSON TWO TOMORROW

Barry

RE: Help with speed
 

Guess I forgot to specify--------GT XT 5575 (BLACK). Camo looks cool. It costs more money, pulls harder from 3D targets, gets lost easier, weighs more than black, and I never saw a deer shy away from black.

Do you see my point? The only positive reason to use camo is to look cool.

RE: Help with speed
 

Thanks a lot BGfisher for your opinions and knowledge. I am new to shooting tha tis why I have the kisser but you make a good point. After a little while I will take you advice and take it off. I heard that feathers shoot faster but I was told not to use feathers with a wisker busquit. Is that true? Good point baout the cammo arrows, the deer should notice... I do like the WB for a rest but an archery shop in my area is really trying to get me to scratch that one too. So, I will be changing arrows for sure. I have extra limb savers on the bow with a stabalizer so I am covered there. Thanks a lot it is really appreciated for a new shooter.

RE: Help with speed
 

Ah So, welcome!!!! Being as you are new to the sport I would also suggest you don't get caught up too heavily with the speed craze. You can change the arrows if you like, but keep the WB rest for a while. In many cases simple is better. Just get to shootin that thing. If possible get you a decent coach from the ranks of target shooters. Join a local club or whatever that has indoor shooting going on. Target---not animals. I know I'll ruffle some feathers here, but target shooters make better coaches and generally know more about shooting. That's because they are into the accuracy thing and not Kinetic Energy freaks.

Learn how to achieve decent repeatable shooting form that feels comfy for you. Shoot FORM, one shot at a time. Often when I practice indoors I shoot only one arrow, then go retrieve it. That helps two ways. FGirst I'm not thinking about shooting tight groups. I'm only thinking of how to shoot that one arrow properly. Secondly, it gives me time to reflect on what I did right, and/or how to improve the next shot. Another reason not to shoot groups is that once you get good enough it gets expensive robinhooding or otherwise breaking the nock end of your arrows up. I ruined two just yesterday.

RE: Help with speed
 

BGfisher, Great advice for the newbie. Kudos’ to you for typing such a lengthy response.

Realmfg, do what he suggests and your fps will increase. The Phoenix 34 is a parallel limb design bow, so I doubt it will get much louder with the lighter arrows. The speed gains should outweigh the any noise increase.

RE: Help with speed
 

He should still be getting faster than 215 with his set up. He should be close to 245 fps even with his arrows and string "stuff". This bow is capable of getting much better speed than what he is getting. He is only generating about 49 foot pounds of energy. He should be closer to 60.

The AMO rating on this bow is 235 fps with a 540 grain arrow at 60 pounds. Granted this is at 30 inch draw but something is definetly not right here. He is at 64 pounds and only shooting aproximately a 470 grain arrow. So he has more weight being drawn and a much lighter arrow and is getting 215.

If his limb bolts are tightened down all the way and he is only getting 64 pounds of draw weight then something is not right. The limbs are not working like they are suppose to. I suspect that either your cable is way too long or your string is way too short to get such a decrease in poundage. This also throws the rotation of the cam off and it will not perform at its optimum efficiency.

470 grain arrow ------ about a .28 fps decrease per grain of arrow weight. This equals a 33 fps loss so we are down to 277 fps.

28 inch draw ------ you loose about 20 fps so we are at 257 fps

Now the string stuff ------ about a 17 fps loss there and you should end up with a speed of about 240+- fps.



Check your strings and cables and make sure they are the correct length. Check your limbs for damage, you may have bad limbs or the wrong limbs to begin with.

RE: Help with speed
 

I was thinking along the same lines about the draw weight, but then reread where he said
"It looks like the screws for the poundage is about at thier max but it should have 6 more lbs. " I know a little goes a long way with limb bolts so I figured he was just backed off that much (down to 64Lbs.)
But if he is at or near maxed out , then something is definately wrong with his rig.

RE: Help with speed
 

Yeah but even if he is backed off to 64 pounds he should still be getting around 240 fps.

Of course the chrono could be off too. I know that's never happened before.;)

RE: Help with speed
 

Dave, thanks for the "KUDO".

I'd like to keep this going a little without trying to step on anybodies toes too hard. Kinda like I'll put in my opinion and maybe learn from some responses.

OK, the lad's bow is at 64#. If that's where he wants to shoot it it shouldn't matter a whole lot whether his limb bolts are bottomed or not. In fact it might even be a better situation than backing them out if the bow maxed at 70#---right or wrong? Also, this cam rotation thing. I know that cams perform better at certain rotational positions, but most bows have to be adjusted for drawlength within a short range to achieve the optimum draw for a person, usually by twisting the string or cable a bit. I think that proper drawlength is a much more important consideration than optimum cam position. Those of us that have been around know that if the draw is not "pretty close" the the person behind it will never shoot as accurately as the could, no matter how fast the bow is.

I figured his arrow, from Bojackson.com, to be at 485gr. That is by no means conducive to getting speed. To get the most he would have to drop down to 320gr by today's accepted standards. Or if you accept the figures from an AMO Minimum Arrow Weight Chart it is even somewhat less for his drawlength at 64#. But in the world of reality we seek to have some sort of balance between speed and noise/vibration.

Two other things I'd like to touch base on. Factory specs: Everyone thinks that a bow should be set to factory specs when making adjustments or replacing strings/cable. Factory specs are not an absolute. They are approximate figures based on variables. What a person should do when they get a bow is, if they know what to do, take the necessary measurements, such as ATA, brace height, tiller, weight (maxed out), etc and record them. Compare them with factory ans they should be close, but not necessarily right on.
Then once a bow is shot in and tuned to perfection then take those measurements again, and record them. And in the future, should you change rigging then this should be your benchmark.

Secondly, I know bigbulls means well, but see what I said above about Kinetic Energy? At this point it's shouldn't even be an issue. The lad doesn't know enough to worry about it, nor should he. If he is going to be hunting deer-sized game then it really doesn't matter anyway. Any arrow that is spined correctly for his weight and draw will have more than enough for any deer. All I'm saying is that at this point in his shooting career it's not something to be concerned about. It clutters up the brain.
I can see that you hunt elk, right? Then some more is better, no doubt. But if deer is the quarry then 49lbs/ft is plenty with a well placed shot. In fact, that is the goal regardless of the energy. A good flying arrow and well placed.
I have shot many deer in the past with setups that produced less than 40lbs/ft and gotten mostly all passthroughs with 4" to 10" in the ground. The one that didn't broke the offside shoulder bone and destroyed the broadhead. Here again, well placed shots (and picky, too).
Like a said, and hope you don't take offense, but I think it's just better to keep thing simple for now. He's got a lot of time to learn about all the details of hunting later. For now I think it's better to get him shooting and learning to shoot correctly.

Barry

RE: Help with speed
 

bigbulls, glad you said about the chrono. I was thinking of that, too.

RE: Help with speed
 

Man, I canot say how much i appreciate the advice from you guys. It is like having an older brother looking out for you on this forum. Bgfisher thanks so much for your time helping me out. I am going to go with the lighter arrow like you said for sure. I will take it to a local pro shop and try to get this all figured out. Some of this stuff is like reading foreign language but I am sure I will learn soon enough!

RE: Help with speed
 

Is it ok to shoot feathers through wisker?

RE: Help with speed
 

I understand about the "keep it simple for him" right now and I wasn't trying to imply that he didn't have "enough" to get the job done but if the chrono is right and everything else he has told us is right and he is only getting 215 with his set up something isn't right with the bow.

You know that it will sit in the back of his mind and bug the crap out of him until he gets it right and as we all know confidence in your equipment is a big thing in archery.

Not that he isn't going to be able to kill deer, or even elk for that matter, the way it is right now but I personally would want my bow performing like it was suppose to. Even if I were a "new guy". He paid a lot of money for this bow and I just think he should be getting what he paid for.

Kind of like buying a truck and only having 6 of the eight cylinders firing. I want all 8 firing while driving down the road.;)


I have a phoenix 32 and can tell you this bow is certainly capable of achieving much higher speed than he is getting.

BTW, you did pi$$ me off now BG.:D;) Just kidding, no offense taken. We're all here to learn.

RE: Help with speed
 

Well GREAT News. I went back to the archery shop today and they tole me I couldnt get any more poundage out of the bow than 64. So I called cabelas and they tried to tell me my speed was fine and I should nt get involved in reading the specs. Well I waited for a new shift and the next guy said bring it on in, we have a new one and illswitch things over and give you that. So, I got a brand new bow. I will not have a chance to get it clocked until next week but I will tell you guys what it shoots at the same weight. Atleast this one goes to 70lb, I checked. I also got an impact archery air light single pin for 22 plus tax. I had cabelas points and I got a free 15 for a credit card sign up so I am pretty pumped up. That sight was 80$. Well thanks guys I will keep ya posted the next time i shoot this new bow to tell you what speed I am getting with the same rig and arrows just a new bow

RE: Help with speed
 

realmf, now you've thrown more to think about into the equation. Got a new bow that goes to 70lbs, right? Are you going to shoot it at 70lbs. If you are or plan to in the future you have to have slightly heavier arrows than you'd shoot at 64lbs. And stiffer spined most likely. Just think about it before you lay down the cash. If you keep your total arrow weight around 350 grains you'll be fine, even at the higher weight. Now you're going to ask about what arrows, right? To save us a lot of writing you can log onto www.bowjackson.com and use their interactive sharts to figure what arrows might work for you. They list several different brands and models. All you gotta do is plug in the figures such as point weight, feathers or vanes, etc and it'll punch it all out for you. Narrow your choices down and then ask us which we'd choose.

And yes, you can shoot feathers through a Whisker bisquit. Most guys shoot vanes, but feathers will work OK. They may get a little frayed along the edges in time but even at that they will steer the arrow well. Heck I just shot a 3D course yesterday and finished the last half dozen targets with an arrow that only had two feathers on it. It's a lot about proper bow tuning.


Bigbulls, you're OK in my book. Just glad we have some mutual respect. It sometimes gets put aside in the fray. And I certainly relize that your opinion is as valuable as mine. Yes, we can learn from each other as well.

RE: Help with speed
 

At least now he can gradually up the poundage as his muscles develope and he grows into the sport with out having to buy a new bow or new limbs.

I'm glad that they decided to replace it for you. Keep us posted.

You're OK in my book too BG.:)

RE: Help with speed
 

Wow, that's sweet customer service (from the second shift).
Good luck with the second bow. I'm sure you'll surpass 215fps easily.

RE: Help with speed
 

bigbulls, this is getting sickening. Thank god we don't have to kiss and make up------YUK.

You know, all I think was wrong with his other bow is that the string and cable needed twisted up to put more prestress on the limbs. But hey, what the heck, now he's got what he wants----and as you said so eloquently, he paid for.

RE: Help with speed
 

OK, I just got back from the shop. I took a 60# P-34 off the rack and set it up to chrono. Changed the module out and installed a P2 for 26" draw. Installed a Whisker Bisquit rest, eyeballed centershot and used a level to set the nocking point. Weight was right on 60#. I shot two different arrows through the chrony. The results were about what I expected.

A Vapor 4000 weighing 380gr grain slowpoked its way through at 238fps. The next shaft was an X7, 2312 with 50 gr tip and 2" feathers. That doesn't matter. The arrow eighed 330 grains, total. This clipped through at 252fps. Now considering that the bisquit was for carbons the 2312 was a little snug and no doubt created a bit more drag, I would be conservative and say 255fps would be about right.

Considering that the bow in question is set at 64# (for now), and adding the more common 2fps/lb that aluminum arrow should bust the chrono at just over 260fps. A far cry from the 215fps now being shot.

This is the first time I've shot the P-34. I had a sight and stabilizer on it just like normal folks do. The bow was extremely quiet and pretty much shock free. No more than I get from my SlayR.

Now, does this help any?

RE: Help with speed
 

Thanks again bgfisher. The new bow is set at 65 lb and i prolly will keep it there. I shot it in the back yard and boy it is flingin em now. I am much more happy to know my bow is doing what I paid for. Now for arrows. I just want a good quality hunting arrow. I went to that sight but was a little confused on some things. I guess I could just go up to my pro shop and ask them what I should shoot. Thanks for all the help, and if you do have an suggestions on hunting arrows they will be put to use.

RE: Help with speed
 

When you get to a chrono shoot the same arrows through it and post what you get for speed.

Just curious to know.

BG, can you set it up to shoot with a 28 inch draw and 64 pounds to see what that bow gets through the chrono?

RE: Help with speed
 

Ill let you know early next week. I will shoot same arrow , lbs, and same chrono

RE: Help with speed
 

Big Bulls do you have any suggestions for a good hunting arrow for a 65 lb 28" Phoenix since you have the 32?

RE: Help with speed
 

Actually, I shoot the same shaft that you do except for the camo part. Mine are the black terminator selects 60-75.[8D] Assuming your shafts are cut to 26-27 inches and with a 100 grain head I would look at the black terminator selects 45-60. This set up will give you about a 400 grain finished arrow weight.

I have also shot the Carbon Express CX arrows and I have really like them a lot. You would use the 200 series. This would give you a much lighter arrow weight of about 330 grains. The CX is a bit more expensive than the terminator shafts.

RE: Help with speed
 

I think the 4560's are underspind for a 65 lb draw? Whats that sound? O its the arrows smaking the target. Boy am I happy now. You were right on the money bigbulls that other bow woulda always drove me nuts.

RE: Help with speed
 

Not if you have a 26 - 27 inch arrow. If you have a longer arrow than this or use a 125 grain head then you would want the 60-75 or the CX300.

Even just changing from the camo to black shafts you will loose about 50 grains.

RE: Help with speed
 

OK, I did some homework. My wife says I'm never home.

Arrows..........I did some comparison on Bowjackson and here's what I got. All arrows to have 100 grain tips and 3 4" feathers. Standard uni-nock, And all arrows figured at 25.5"

Arrow shaft Weight %FOC

Beman ICS 500 Black 330gr 14.2
Beman ICS 400 Black 354gr 13.2

CX 200 Hunter 341gr 13.1

Gold Tip 5575 Black 342gr 13.0

Vapor 3000 VC 348gr 12.1

Easton Epic 500 354gr 13.2

This is just some ideas of what I think would work. As you can see they all fall into the 5.5gr/lb range which keeps your warranty intact. And the FOC for a hunting shaft is excellent also. In my opinion I would favor the Gold Tip. They are good arrow and although I've never shot them I got a real itch to shoot some of the X Cutters. I shoot the Bemans in both sizes and they are OK. My last choice would be the Carbon Express CX. They are the highest quality of them all but at a higher price and made in Korea (I think CX is raping the American consumer with the price).


bigbulls is right about the spine, too. Most carbon arrows are rated at 29". You shorten up by three inches and can get away with a lighter spine. I do it all the time. Shooting 500 spine at 60-63# and 27" works like a charm for me. I like light tips too. I'm a speed freak.

RE: Help with speed
 

What are you looking for? Comparing the 32 to the 34???? I'll see what I can do for you and get back to you. Just for giggles I gotta do the math and make an estimate. 330gr arrow doing 255 now. Add 2" and 4# and it should be cracking the light at 280 to 285. We'll see.

Hey that may not be bad though. That's just about what I can get out of my SlayR at 56lbs.

RE: Help with speed
 

He has a 28 inch draw and was wondering what you would get at that length. More for him than me.

I was figuring about 280ish as well.

RE: Help with speed
 

OK, I tried the P-34 at 28" draw, 64lbs, whisker bisquit, shooting a 330 grain arrow-----275fps. Then I changed the rest and put a Quicktune 1000 on it. Surprisingly it only did 277 fps. I really though the WB would slow it down more. At least that what I have been hearing. Guess I'll have to get better hearing aids.

The bow shoots nice and smooth, but I'm not impressed with the speed. For camparison I shot my Martin SlayR right afterwards using the same arrow (It's my winter 3D arrow). At 27" draw and 53# it's doing 273fps. Think about that. It's a full inch shorter and a full 10# less, but almost as fast. And at 53# those two cams roll over like butter.

Bigbulls, not telling you what to do, but if you get the chance try a Martin Cougar with the Nitrous cams, just for comparison. Sorry to say we don't have any Nitrous cams in our store. The Cougar retails the same as the P-34. It compare s favorably with the SlayR for speed, about 5 fps less on paper.

RE: Help with speed
 

Just to throw some of my 2 cents on the table.

I'm shooting a Parker Phoenix 34 set at 60 pounds even with a 28" Gold Tip XT hunter arrow and 100 gr field tips, 29" draw, a wisker biscuit rest, peep sight, string loop nock, string leeches, and 4" feathers, and a pro diamond release. My total arrow weight comes in to 364gr.

My cronographed speed was 261fps over ten averaged shots ranging between 259 and 263fps.