How important is shaft straightness for hunting??
 

I'm checking out the Gold Tip series of hunter arrows and the specs go from .006" straightness to .001" and the price goes from $55 to $85 (camo, bare shafts from www.huntersfriend.com) Is the Price difference really worth it for straighter shafts for ranges out to 40 yards??

30 inch draw
60#
whisker biscuit
parker phoenix 34

RE: How important is shaft straighness for hunting??
 

For hunting I don't think it matters one bit.

The difference your talking about between the two is about the width of one single strand of hair! I am willing to bet that 99% of the people on this board could not tell the difference by shooting them (if all markings were taken off of the arrows and they all looked the same) which ones were .001 and which were .006. And I know for damn sure the critters you shoot won't know either.

Just another way for arrow manufactures to soak more money out of you. Do yourself a favor and save some money.

RE: How important is shaft straighness for hunting??
 

I'm definetely leaning towards keeping my wallet on the heavier side...

RE: How important is shaft straighness for hunting??
 

I shoot .006's and have never had a problem with accuracy (other than "operator error":D) There is no way anyone can convince me that you NEED .001's to hunt 40yds and in. The amount of accuracy lost with the .006's even out to 70yds+ is probably so minimal that even the best wouldn't notice a difference.

There are so many other factors that come into play in order to make an accurate shot. To worry about such a small difference in arrow straightness just dosen't make sense to me. Buy the .006's and spend the extra money on range time and you will see a far better return on your money spent.

Just my .02

RE: How important is shaft straighness for hunting??
 

BigJ12 , I couldn't agree more! But this being the technical forum I'm sure there will be those who disagree.;)

RE: How important is shaft straighness for hunting??
 

I can't tell you how much will be gained by the straighter shafts. I don't know of any studies that have shown what the difference would be. I've been spine testing arrows recently and have found that the more expensive shafts tend to be more consistant with spine, which can make a significant difference in flight with broadheads.

I will add that I've always been somewhat amazed that people will go out and spend $1200 on a bow and accessories that will truely not make even the slightest difference, and then go as cheap as possible on the arrows, which definitely can make a difference. In my opinion, you could waste your money on lots of less important things.

RE: How important is shaft straighness for hunting??
 

when i buy the .006's i cut from both ends of the shaft getting it to length. imho this is a good idea with any arrow. usually if there is a bend its at the end. squaring the ends after cutting with a tool made for it isn't a bad idea either. you can get 2 yr old, but never used, 75/95's in camo cheap as dirt in the .006 model. got to get the new nocks also though, they come with the old lock nock.

RE: How important is shaft straighness for hunting??
 

SA has given you the best information. This subject has been beaten to death many times. A search would be in your best interest.

We take a lot of time instructing our customers about the need, benefit and application of arrow straightness and spine.

If anyone thinks that money can't buy you a better product, then definitely go the CHEAP route. It may be befitting.

RE: How important is shaft straighness for hunting??
 

hehehehe, a sly insult from a shopowner. glad i spend a couple grand a year in shops to get insulted online by one. (and a generally less cranky one).

bow no breaky, arrows breaky a lot. for shooting in the backyard and hunting a gold tip .006 is fine. for $40 delivered to my door i can get at least 8 of the dozen as good as any of the .003's and the others are fine for practice. i shoot the .003's with the .006's every time i shoot. no difference in poi. guess i'm just cheap. i used to buy more expensive arrows but they broke even easier.

RE: How important is shaft straighness for hunting??
 

I understand that spine consistency is extremely important, but how critical is .005" or .003" of straightness? Have you found that straightness consistency coincides with spine consistency? It's my understanding, and I am far from an expert, that the arrows are the same stiffness but the straightness is not as consistent say from GT Expeditions to Pro Hunters. I'm not saying that anyone is right or wrong, but I have to agree the average archer isn't good enough to notice a difference. If you guys that are more in the know with arrow technology have some info about tolerances and how they effect each other (i.e. straightness effecting spine, spine effecting weight, etc.) please let share it because I want to be able to get the most performace that my limited abilities will allow without paying for something that I can't take advantage of.

I do tend to agree with gibblet that arrows get lost, bent, broken and just plain wear out so if excessive cost can be avoided it should be.

RE: How important is shaft straighness for hunting??
 

I'm glad to see this got some attention. Gibblet, That was anything but sly.

Len, I never said money won't buy a better product, and I never said the .006 arrows were better than the .001, quite the oppisite. WHAT I did say is that not you nor anyone else on this board can convince me that anybody can tell the difference. I'm sure there are some who can but I'm willing to bet 99% of the people on this board can't. AND the original question was regarding a hunting application not target or 3D.

So your telling me that you recommend the more expensive .001 arrows to your customers who will be only hunting? Remind me never to shop at your store. Are you implying you would sell a product to a customer that he/she didn't need just because it was a better product? Do you realy think an average hunter can tell the difference in the way the two arrows fly? Or do you just want to make as much money as possible and to hell with what is best or most beneficial to the customer. If you think all that counts is the sale then definitely go that route, it may also be befitting.

I didn't advise Long Round Tip to buy the cheapest arrows he could find, he was asking about Gold tips and if he should get the .001 or .006 for hunting. You would tell him to get the .001's? why? If he is like me, he is an average archer with good enough skills to make a clean kill out to 40 +/- yds and hit targets at an even greater distance with consistancy. I doubt if he would ever be able to tell the difference between the two arrows all else being the same, and I'm quite sure that I will never either. (sorry for putting words in your mouth LRT)

Like I said his extra money like mine would be better spent at the range. And in this case, that's what should be advised.

RE: How important is shaft straighness for hunting??
 

If you have the money get the good ones if you don't have the extra money don't. You might not notice a difference however, it is there.

RE: How important is shaft straighness for hunting??
 

BigJ, pick on Lenny if you want but he has some valid points. How will a person ever find out what their accuracy potential is if they don't buy equipment capable of better than they are getting? Not saying that arrows of .001" are necessary, but it sure doesn't hurt to go middle of the road and get something about .003". And they're usually middle of the road in price, too.

Persoanlly I find arrows of .003 about optimum. That's why, although I try a lot of different ones as improvements hit the market, I often find myself drifting back to my ACC's. .003", .005" in spine variance---quality. And they aren't all that expensive compared to top quality AC arrows. I bought a dozen 10 years ago and still have 8 of them.

And the old adage about losing a lot of arrows shouldn't be a problem either. Move closer and/or learn to shoot better. I don't mind breaking one when shooting a deer though. It's probably the cheapest part of the hunt. And besides, somebody will make a new and better arrow next summer that I'll just have to try.

RE: How important is shaft straighness for hunting??
 

Gibblet:

I see that I got the attention of you and others.:D

I was told by several arrow manufacturers that, in order to get 'better' arrows, my customers would have to spend more money. I do agree with that statement, but have found many exceptions to it. Just recently I bought many '5 packs' and '6 packs' (that's 5 or 6 dozen bulk packaged) of arrows that were supposed to be .001 (the best they had to offer)). What we received from one manufacturer was far from .001. Half of the 'lot' was more like .010-.015. Guess what - the Rep will be in the store tomorrow and I expect a recall ticket.

Now, if the .001s are that bad, what do you and others think you get when you buy the bargain basement brand. I'll answer that question, you don't know! We do quality control inspections as a service to our customers, and most of them know it and appreciate it. I've seen, by our standards, as much as a 100% rejection rate on some arrows.

We used to spend a lot of time trying to tune with BAD arrows. It was a waste of our time and the customers' money. We now examine every arrow that is supplied by a customer for tuning purposes and select only good arrows for that purpose. If we try to tune to a BAD arrow, then every other arrow has to be just as BAD to get uniform results. Think about that.

As you stated, you're breaking a lot of arrows. If that's the case, I could speculate that you may be tuned to a BAD arrow. Most of our customers have the same arrows for years and reflect them periodically.

We work very closely with all of our customers to weed out those BAD arrows. For instance, there are at least 4 spin tools available for customer use in the shop. If they wind up with a 100% rejection rate, did they get a good deal? While this scenario may be rare, it has happened; and, the arrows were always bought from a discount house of various sorts.

We sell arrows from very inexpensive to the expensive. What we sell to our customers is what meets their budget. The difference, however, is that our customers can expect a decent 'yield' from even our least expensive arrows.

And to finish, while spine is a very important issue, wall consistency and true (not advertised) straightness, IMPO, are sometimes more important.

RE: How important is shaft straighness for hunting??
 

I have a question as I have been reading this post for a while and haven't responded. My question is why would you want pin point accuracy on the 3-D course and not in hunting. I know(from shooting many 3-D tournaments) that a fraction of an inch can keep you out of the money, But with the stress situations that bowhunting can give us, wouldn't you want a larger margin of error with a better arrow. Also I would like to add that with the speed of todays bows, tuning becomes more critical, spine inconsistancies would make planing issues even more previlent. When it comes to both my tournaments and hunting I want the best that money can buy. Even if .006 is good enough for me to kill an elk, shooting an arrow with a .001 will give me more confidence in my equipment, especially when accurate bowshooting is a highly mental game.

RE: How important is shaft straighness for hunting??
 

Quote:

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Elkcrazy8
I have a question as I have been reading this post for a while and haven't responded. My question is why would you want pin point accuracy on the 3-D course and not in hunting.

---

Excellent question/observation!!! If I could give out an award for best question of the month, this would be it. I preach this to my customers often. A tournament archer gets many chances. You may only get one chance at the buck of a lifetime. And, even when shooting does, doesn't the animal deserve your best effort/equipment?

Many of you don't know that I'm a hunter and NOT a tournament archer of any kind. Even so, I believe in putting out the best for the hunt. Call it ethics or whatever you want, but I call it principle.

A 'tip of the hat' to you, Elkcrazy8.;)

RE: How important is shaft straighness for hunting??
 

Len, I have a question for you. In your shop, how do you handle a situation where a customer buys a dozen arrows from you (regardless of price and advertised quality range) and takes them home and tests them for straightness and weight tolerance. He then finds that 4 out of the dozen do not meet advertised tolerances. Do you replace the bad arrows?

RE: How important is shaft straighness for hunting??
 

I think alot of people are missing my point. I responded to a question about the difference in a .001 to .006 arrow for hunting purposes. My statement was and still is. I don't think 99% of the people on this board could tell the difference between the two arrows.

I didn't say "Hey be carefull because those .006 arrows may not be .006 they may be .011 or .015". You can have a bad batch of arrows no matter what straightness you order. And just like the .001's you should EXPECT your .006's to be .006! I wonder how many of you who buy .001's are now wondering if indeed they are .001's huh?

And yes I do agree that both 3D and hunting is a matter of fractions of inches and stress is high in both, but that just reinforces my point. More time should be put into practice instead of if your arrows are .003-5 off straight. Those super straight arrows will not make you a better hunter, practice and ONLY practice will. Again before somebody goes off the deep end I am comparing a true .001 to a .006 in a HUNTING situation.

I would put arrow straightness (difference between .001 and .006) the last thing on my list of things to worry about when trying to be a better archer. Stop and think about all the different things that can alter your shot from going where you want it. From your form to your bows state of tune. There is so much more to worry and work on instead of the difference between .001 and .006

If you practice enough you will have the confidence and the ability to put your arrow in the vitals of the animal you are hunting and make a clean and ethical kill. And it would not make a difference nor could you tell the difference if your arrows were .001 or .006.

Isn't that what the question was "How important is shaft straightness for hunting"

RE: How important is shaft straighness for hunting??
 

Quote:

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Do you replace the bad arrows?

---

No, I couldn't do that for two reasons. First, what would I do with the 'bad' arrows. If they were brought back, who's to say how they were treated once they left the shop. If I sent them back to the manufacturer, they would say that they were used arrows and subject to no warranty.

Second, if I returned the volume of arrows that you're proposing, my shop would be 'blacklisted' by the manufacturers and distributors. In other words, they wouldn't sell me any more arrows.

The best way to handle this situation is for the consumer to return the arrows to the manufacturer. They can't 'blacklist' you and they might be influenced by a large portion of their market making returns.

As far as "advertised tolerances", .......[:@][&o][:'(]

We advise the customers as to what yield they can expect from various brands/styles. If they want, we help them select the better arrows for hunting and they use the rest for target practice.

RE: How important is shaft straighness for hunting??
 

It is real funny. Just last week 4 friends and I hade the same thing come up.

1st guy shoots 3-d select .001
2nd guy shoots same 3-d
3rd guy shoots easton car. excel .005
4th guy shoots wallmart gamegetter ll not sure but shuld be bad :}
I shoot beman ics camo hunter .002

We all shoot difrant rounds using all the aroows.All bows are 65-70# draw 29 in the wallmart arows where 30 in.We all shot from 20yd 40yd and 60yd.Knowing the what arrow you where shooting you would think that the $100 arows would be way better than the lesser arrows.Well I sure ate my words as I was handing my $100 to jim [the wallmart guy] Non of us could tell any difrants in the arows for acracy. Of corse they all grouped in dif spots but groups stayed tight depending on what shooter shot them.

I am one for buying very good items to hunt with.I normaly loose or break 4 dz arrows a year. I sure am thinking of buying a cheeper arrows.

I am sure all pros for the good arrows will say the shooter is the bigest dif. If I was good enough I could tell the difrants.I shure would like to have that guy standing at my house so I could get my $100 from him.I shure felt like a heal giving jim $100 so he could buy more wallmart arows :{I sure am glade I did not bet more.

Some of the guys should get togeather and try this. I would love to hear what all outhers have to say.

RE: How important is shaft straighness for hunting??
 

Thats certainly a good ad campaign for selling expensive arrows but lets get back to the real world here. I believe we're talking about the average hunter shooting average hunting distances.

I no longer shoot competition so all my practice and 3d shoots are based on hunting situations. I achieve the same accuracy at my chosen hunting distance (40yds max) with my cheaper .006 Goldtips or my .006 Bemans that I get with my .002 CE's or my GT Pro's. I dont find it diffecult to believe that any other average archer with some shooting skills can achieve the same success at hunting distances with the cheaper arrows.

RE: How important is shaft straighness for hunting??
 

No bigj12, your point is not missed. Anytime you purchase an arrow with .006 straightness there are also other tolerances that are compromised in the arrow(such as spine and wall thickness). The reason that they are cheaper is because of the tolerances not being so close. When I am bringing down 1000 lb animals with a bow I want to make sure that the whole arrows is directly behind the broadhead. I will never compromise my shots with arrows that may be inconsistant. Straightness isn't the only issue at hand and the original post on this thread also included the pricing of arrows. The .006 obviously being the cheaper. How cheap are these arrows actually if you can not get them all to fly right anyway? I beleive that arrow selection is a part of bowhunting and target archery that is widely overlooked. I will agree with you that most people can't shoot to the capacity of their bow much less the arrow but why not get as close to perfect as you can get? It will significantly reduce margin's of error. If you can reduce several margins of error in your setup it could equal the difference of a liver and a gut shot. I could also get into discussion about forgiveness ratings of bows but that could easily be a thread in its own.

RE: How important is shaft straighness for hunting??
 

Well said Bowfanatic! That's exactly my point!

RE: How important is shaft straighness for hunting??
 

If you practice enough there is no way you can't expect to put all of your arrows in the bullseye at 20yds and inside of a 6in circle at 40yds I do it all the time with my .006 arrows. Thats the size of the heart on your 1000lb animal = dead animal

RE: How important is shaft straighness for hunting??
 

And another thing, you make it sound like the .006 arrows are flying all over the place.......what arrows are you shooting? I am willing to bet that a very good archer can put all of my .006 arrows in the center of the bullseye at 20yds all TOUCHING each other.....out of my bow!

What more do you want out of a hunting set up???????

RE: How important is shaft straighness for hunting??
 

I think your still missing the point. What we're saying is the average archer CAN get them to fly right!:eek:

If someone achieves the same accuracy at hunting distances with the cheaper arrow that they do with the expensive "straighter" arrow how can they get any closer to "as perfect as you can get"?:eek:

I'm kind of curious as to what arrow Len hunts with? I already know what arrow his huntin buddy (David) uses or at least did use.

RE: How important is shaft straighness for hunting??
 

Well bigj12.you want a superior wall thickness..especially for a 1000 lb bull elk.As far as hitting the heart,have you ever been that close to elk..It aint tarhet shooting..I can tell you that. Elk crazy is right..Why would you want to be robin hood at your target,but be just mediocore when hunting..there are alot of thing that play a factor in hunting a big bull.One of them doesn't have to be your arrow.spend the couple extra dollars and go quality.

RE: How important is shaft straighness for hunting??
 

I beleive that you are missing my point now. With the cheaper arrows along with the .006 straitness are other inconsistancies. To give you an example. I thought that I would go the route and shoot cheaper arrows. I had a 10 yard shot on a very large bodied bull elk. When I shot the arrow went in right in the sweet spot, the tip that was. I had a good release and the arrow flew straight to its mark. Upon impact the broadhead drove into the bull. As the elk ran off I noticed the back leg flopping kinda funny. I found the bull colapsed on the ground and I was able to fill my tag. What happened? The arrow went into the rib square on and then deflected and snapped. The broadhead end of the arrow drove into the back femur. Will I ever try to use cheap arrows again. No way. That shot should have been a perfect passthrough like I have gotten on many before. You can not and will not ever convince me to shoot cheap arrows again. I spend 5 nights a week at the range and shoot 35-40 tournaments a year. My bow is tuned and retuned. I know my shot was right on the money both in shot location and also in my form. The close call with the biggest elk of my life could have easily been taken away. That is why I feel so strongly about arrow selection.

RE: How important is shaft straighness for hunting??
 

Once again Bowfanatic you hit the nail on the head. If I put all of my .006 arrow in the bullseye at hunting distances then why would I want to spend more money for the same results?

Before anyone else posts please re-read Bowfanatic's last post

RE: How important is shaft straighness for hunting??
 

Bowfanatic also cut out the part of my post which explains margins of error. I beleive at this point I will agree to disagree. Thanks for some lively debate. This web should help me get through to spring bear season. Good luck.

RE: How important is shaft straighness for hunting??
 

I think confidence in your equipment has alot to do with it. If a guy knows he can group .006 arrows and is confident and trusts his equipment. But on the other hand if a guy had a bad expericence with the same arrow he loses his confidence in his equipment. Its like buying anything to do with archery if it works and gives you the confidence then what more could you ask for. Instead of asking which bow, arrow, rest ect. is best I would like "which do you prefer and why". sjb3

RE: How important is shaft straighness for hunting??
 

First, Elkcrazedfrk, I have been close to elk, or should I change my screen name to BigJ12elkshooter for you to believe me? Second elkcrazy8, I wasn't there when your arrow broke so I cannot tell you what happened. I can tell you that many elk have been killed by .006 carbon arrows as well as wooden and aluminum arrows with complete pass throughs. And many .001 arrows have been broken by elk as well.

I think there are many other factors such as overall arrow weight and the arrows grains per inch and shot placement that have more to do with an arrow staying together and penetrating than straightness. Remember we are talking about a difference of a human hair from arrow to arrow. Many things can cause an arrow to enter off center and not produce optimum penetration and performance. I wouldn't be so quick to blame it on .006 or any of the other inconsistencies that according to some of you are inherent to all arrows that don't have a .001 straightness.

RE: How important is shaft straighness for hunting??
 

Just so you know BigJ12, my arrow was 524 grains with a cut to the tip head. I was hitting with 83 ft lbs of kinetic energy. There is no reason why that should have not been a pass through ,the back half of the arrow was straight in still. It was enough for me to switch arrows. I think that anyone in that situation would have done the same that I did and made the switch. Elk are too awesome to take any chances. Yes there are alot of elk taken with all sorts of arrows. I just know what I experienced and I will do what ever it takes to minimize the chances of losing a bull. And cheap arrows were definately on my suspect list. Happy hunting

RE: How important is shaft straighness for hunting??
 

I can't argue with that, I'm not suggesting anybody should get "cheap arrows" for elk or any other kind of hunting. All I'm saying is There are some very good strong and well made arrows by very reputable companies that just happen to be .006 I would not consider them to be "cheap Arrows" just less expensive than the .001 arrows.

With that in mind I see no reason why they won't work just as good as a .001 arrow with the same construction (with the exception of straightness)and have no concernable difference in flight and accuracy in the hands of an average archer/hunter.

Thanks for the discussion and happy hunting to you as well.

John

RE: How important is shaft straighness for hunting??
 

I wanted to add that evaluating a target arrow is not likely to tell you what will happen when you put a fixed blade broadhead on the end. The broadhead magnifies all poor tolerances. For a couple bucks you can get an arrow that is straighter and has better spine consistancy. This will give you a broadhead tipped arrow that flys noticably better (at least I can easily notice it). I see hunters putting hundreds of dollars into the latest scent lok, cover scents and dozens of other things that have questionable benefits at best. That brand new, latest greatest bow, will do nothing to increase your accuracy, yet hunters are constantly constantly spending tons of money trying to find it. For a couple bucks, you can have a broadhead tipped arrow that is at least slightly more accurate on average. Is it worth a couple bucks? Each has to decide that for himself. Myself? Well, I'm not spending $2000 on my elk hunting trip this fall and then going cheap on the arrows. It is worth a couple bucks to me. Think about it, the broadhead and the arrow are the only things that actually do the killing. I think most would be better off with the cheapest commercially produced bow on the planet and the best arrows flying out of it.

RE: How important is shaft straighness for hunting??
 

i break arrows because i am addicted to shooting groups, and every once in a while i forget to move the slide on my sight when i'm practicing. i'm actually a pretty good shot. i like shooting 12 at a time during the offseason. i really like it. i'm hooked on groups. at 50 yds 6 of them will be in the dot i'm shooting and the rest will be close, well except maybe 1 or 2 will be 4 or 5 inches off. 1 may be 8 off right or left. my up and downs are great. i'm learning to make strings and cables now and am constantly shooting them in and dialing everything back in. i have tried to paper tune my bow with a underspined arrow before. oh my, what a headache. that's why i went to the 75/95's. since i got spine right for my setup everything is a lot easier.

now, when i change to broadhead only practice i square my ends and find my best 6 arrows. i tune the bow to my broadheads and don't pick up field pts until after season. i am in the camp of 'i could care less if my field points hit where my broadheads do.' no more groups at that pt. i don't shoot competition, but am thinking of doing some 3d shoots during this season, the fun rounds, for practice.

Len: i never doubt anything you say is from your vast experience and dedication to archery and your customers. as i've said before, i wish your shop was just around the corner. i would be down there picking your brain and bothering you a lot.

RE: How important is shaft straighness for hunting??
 

WOW! I didn't know this post would get this kind of attention and heated debates. As for now I am proud of the fact that I am shooting the cheaper Redhead Carbon Supreme and getting 1" groups out to twenty yards. I'm going to stick to the .006 and save some money. If after a summer of practice I can't get 1"-1.5" groups out to 40 yards then I may opt to try the more expensive arrows that claim better results. Otherwise I am going to stick to the .006's.

Thanks everybody for your help!!

RE: How important is shaft straighness for hunting??
 

I use .003 arrows. I do believe that arrow straightness affects your accuracy, but not enough for the average person to tell. The only reason I shoot the .003 arrows is because they are the A/C/C arrows. I would never use another type of arrow again.

RE: How important is shaft straighness for hunting??
 

:D

hee hee

nothin' ever changes 'round this place

RE: How important is shaft straighness for hunting??
 

Having not read all the replies, I'll throw in my two cents. Straighter arrows are usually better arrows. I say this re: spine and weight consistency as well. Spine is, IMO, THE most important spec needed for consistency. A couple of grains from arrow to arrow won't kill you but, the spread will be less with better arrows. With field points inconsistencies won't be as noticeable. But put on fixed blades, and arrow flight can get ugly. After the arrow leaves the bow, the best bow in the world won't make lousy arrows fly well.