RE: speed
 

Terrrible comparison. Muzzleloading shotgun vs high powered rifle? C'mon! Let's do this right.

A .223 puts out about the same energy as a 45-70 Gov't, with a lighter, faster bullet and much flatter trajectory. Tell you what. We'll take 2 rounds apiece. You, as the speed whiz, get to take the .223 and I'll take the ol' 45-70 punkin roller. We'll go hunting grizzly bears in heavy cover.

RE: speed
 

P.S.

I wasn't insinuating anybody is a poacher, just stating a fact. Sorry if anyone took offense. 22LR isn't leagal for deer in MI.:eek:

RE: speed
 

Aurthur,

I'd take the .223;)[8D]
Naw probably not, but it could kill a bear none the less. as long as it isn't loaded with HP's. Couple solids in the head should do it. ;) I have seen one arrow in the head kill a giant Griz.

RE: speed
 

Actually, depending on which bullets you compare the 45-70 carries close to 1000 more foot pounds at the muzzle. Ironically the lighter 45-70 bullet has a lot more energy than the heavier. That being said, do you think a grizzly that is shot in the head with a 223 is going to be any less dead than a grizzly shot in the heart by a 45-70? At the end of the day all the really matters is personal preference. It's pretty hard to argue with success and I am sure that none of the 15 deer that I have killed with my Patriots in the last three years knew that my "speed" bow or fast arrow was difficult to shoot or get good arrow flight. As a matter of fact, if they were able, I am sure they would argue to the contrary. Could I have killed them with a slower bow or arrow? Probably so. Have I hurt myself in anyway by shooting a fast bow and putting arrows out there in the 280's? I am gonna have to say NO and let the stats speak for themselves.

RE: speed
 

Not saying anymore dead, just dead as well:eek:

and playing around stirring the pot.

By the way I like the rest of what you said

RE: speed
 

You guys miss the part about "in heavy cover"? You got the stones to stand there and take careful aim on the head of a charging griz with a .223? I seriously do doubt it. Point is, you have a very limited shot selection with the .223 and you have to be right on for it to work. I've got a much greater selection of potentially lethal hits with the 45-70 and a better chance of stopping that charging bear.


Yep, and I'll stack my 50 years of success with heavy arrows up against... well, however many you've got.

Do light, fast arrows work? Yes, if you can drive them fast enough. If you hit precisely where you aim. If you have proper shot selection. If you don't try and stretch the shot distance so far the light arrow bleeds off too much speed and energy just cutting through the air. If, if, if....

On the other hand, a heavy arrow has far fewer "if's" and, when shot from the same bow, it ALWAYS arrives on target with more energy and momentum than a light arrow for better penetratation potential. Does that matter with deer? Not really, not if everything goes right. It's those times Murphy takes a hand in the process though...

RE: speed
 

Hmmmm... Do I have the stones...

Yeah.;) No, just playing with you a bit Arthur. I can see both sides of the fence. One side just looks more appealing to me. Granted most of your shots are close, but I like the capability. For example, some of the squirrels I have shot were over 50 yards. Speed is a handy tool in that situation.[8D]

RE: speed
 

and if you can honestly say that you're batting 100% then I'll concede the point;) But again, there is nothing inherently wrong with speed. I personally prefer to shoot in the upper 70's of KE just for those murphy type cases. But, by the same token I saw a woman on video the other day with a 25" draw shooting Gold Tips blow through an elk. She didn't have a heavy arrow and not much speed as compared to what most guys are shooting. I personally prefer a fast bow so I can shoot a heavier arrow and still get lots of speed. It's the best of both worlds. I get great penetration and trajectory all wrapped up into to one. No speed isn't the only component but when used in the right combination it's a wonderful thing to have. I could flip the if situations around. If the animal doesn't duck your arrow, and if you don't slightly misjudge yardage, and if you hit precisely where you aim (that doesn't matter if the arrow is heavy or light) or if you have proper shot selection I am assuming you aren't advocating that it's OK to take bad shots as long as your shooting a heavier arrow)

RE: speed
 

RE: speed
 

Your assumption is correct. Point is, wild animals are not McKenzie targets. They are unpredictable and can move unexpectedly. In the split second of time between it takes for you to decide to commit to the release and for the arrow to leave the bow, what began as a perfect setup on a broadside shot COULD turn into a severe angling shot. I've even seen it happen with a rifle, so it don't bother trying to insult my intelligence by saying a fast arrow will prevent that kind of thing.

Well, duh! You HAVE to. Know why? You have to speed up those light arrows and generate all that energy just to match the amount of MOMENTUM I get with my big ol' logs out of a puny 50 pound recurve. Light arrows work if, and only if, you can stand the draw weight and draw cycles it takes to get 'em moving fast enough to generate enough momentum to make them work. I don't like working that damn hard, so I get my momentum the easy way, with arrow weight.

About videos, I've seen all kinds of stuff on video. I was watching one just the other day where a guy shot a deer, arrow came to a dead stop in the rib cage and the deer ran off. Lo and behold! The guy climbs down outta his tree and walks over to where the deer was and says "There's my arrow. Lots of good sign on that arrow." Now that was quite a trick, seeing as how the deer ran off with the fletchings sticking out his side. Of course, he never picked up that arrow to show to the camera. That would've been an even better trick. LOL

And that's far from the first time I've seen such goings on with light arrows on video. I don't doubt the gal got her elk with a light arrow, but don't try and tell me it 'blew through'. They can't even get 'em to reliably blow through puny little deer on video. Watch a few kill shots in stop frame and you'll what I'm talking about.