speed
 

I have noticed alot that most every body here is worried about speed.You only need about 40pds. of energy to pass threw a deer.And with todays bows I dont think that there is one bow out there that is not capable of that.and I wont to belive that bowhunters have some way of marking yardage weather it be a range finder or a peace of organge tape in a tree that has been steped off.You can shoot 215fps with a 400 grain arrow and have eneff energy to kill a whitetail with.I reliy on how shooter frendly the bow is and how accurate i can get whith it. You have to agree if you cant hit what you are aming at it doesnt matter how fast you get there.i belive that speed is just a ego thing.and yes I know I have just opened up pandoras box.Please tell me why speed is so important.

RE: speed
 

This is gonna be interesting.

I better go put some beer on ice and get the pop corn ready

RE: speed
 

Yeap. Thats a can of worms. I do agree speed means little. It's because people spend spend spend so they can have the best. Good archers don't need 300 fps because they have skill.:(

RE: speed
 

Sticum do ya gun hunt? If the answer was yes im assuming that you use a .410 single shot with a scope. Because you know speed just doesnt matter just accuracy right. Get a grip

RE: speed
 

Apples to apples. You are talking of a lighter slower bullet:eek: Let me think, I think with an arrow you would have to go heavier to slow it down.

Hey how about this. i will use a .22 because its fast and has more energy than a bow.

RE: speed
 

Who do you guys think is pushing the speed thing? If it is faster, better and costs more it has to be good right? That is a manufactures game of getting you to spend money and be one up on your buddies. Need has nothing to do with it. If you buy this and that you will be so good you won't have to practice. Then next year when your limbs are going and you have eaten strings and cables and can't tune the thing. You are back in the pro shop and they say yeah that was an OK bow, but you should see the changes we made for this year and suck you in all over again. Have at it boys I like my money and my old reliable bow. It is slow and kills elk clean and it shoots real broadheads and I can tune it. But it has a draw back, I have to practice. OH wait a minute, I like to shoot my bow.
Gselkhunter

RE: speed
 

IMO there is a delicate balance when talking about KE and speed. If the arrow is too light and fast, yes, flatter the trajectory, but less KE. On the other end, if the arrow is too heavy, the speed is too slow, and less KE. KE=speed x velocity2. They both relate directly to the other. The trick is to find the best set up of speed and weight, giving the best KE. But, then on the other hand, not much KE is needed to blow through a deer, so what the heck, go for all out speed.
Yet another side, the faster the arrow, the less consistent the shot. At high speeds, every little thing we do is amplified by like 6". So, if you are shooting 300 fps but can't hit water standing on the Arc, what good is it. On the flip side, if you are shooting a heavy arrow at 220 fps, but can judge distance and hit a quarter at 50 yards......hmmmmm.....let me see...;)

RE: speed
 

IMO speed is a good thing because it allows me to shoot ever heavier arrows and make more energy and momentum. Besides not everyone hunts only whitetail deer. Some of us hunt bigger animals such as elk and moose and a heavier arrow at a faster speed is a good thing.

Take two bows. Assume that they are equal in every aspect except for the speed rating. One is rated at 320 fps IBO and the other is rated at 290 fps IBO.

Bow #1 will launch a 500 grain arrow at about 268 fps and make 79 foot pounds of energy.
At 20 yards the arrow would be 10 inches low with 74 lbs of KE, at 30 yards 23 inches low with 71 lbs of KE, and at 40 yards 43 inches low with 68 lbs of KE.

Bow #2 will launch a 500 grain arrow at about 243 fps and make only 65 foot pound of energy.
At 20 yards the arrow would be 13 inches low with 60 lbs of KE, at 30 yards 29 inches low with 58 lbs of KE, and at 40 yards 53 inches low with 56 lbs of KE.


Even with bow #2 shooting a 410 grain arrow making equal launch speeds the heavier arrow will retain its energy and momentum to greater distances which will still offer a flatter trajectory.


So at 40 yards bow number 1 has more remaining energy than bow number 2 does at the bow. There is also a 10 inch differance in trajectory at 40 yards making range estemation ever more critical.


That's why I would rather have a faster bow provided it is still a very shootable bow to begin with. Some fast bows I would never consider hunting with. Example... the Hoyt turbo tec. Harsh draw cycle, extremely short valley, and a 6" brace height. To me this is not a fast bow designed with the hunter in mind.

RE: speed
 

Very good point bigbulls. Although I don't currently hunt big game, I do plan to one day. It would be senseless for me to buy a less efficient bow when I will eventually need a higher KE output for elk, bear, moose, etc.

Not only that, but I gain confidence in knowing that my bow is producing enough KE if my arrow placement is less than perfect (Shoulder hit, bone etc.) to finish the deal. Although perfect arrow placement is key, buck fever has been known to give one the shakes! Just my 2 cents.

RE: speed
 

the faster I can get an arrow to go the better I like it

shooting flat is where its at

RE: speed
 

Well there have been enough deer killed with a .22 rim fire to sink the Titanic like it was a dime store canoe with a hole in it;)

RE: speed
 

I've been shooting compounds almost 31 years now. You know, back in the "good ole days" when they shot around 180fps or so at 60+ lbs. Today I shoot 53 lbs and am getting 280+ fps. Believe me, faster is better. And everything else about bows is better, too. Well, maybe the exception would be the price.

RE: speed
 

Bahaa haa haa....so true!

First of all perhaps it should be noted that much like beauty, speed is relevant to the shooter. The same bow may shoot a 500 grain arrow 240 fps and shoot a 400 grain 270 fps. Depending on ones perspective both speeds could be viewed as fast, or slow. Compared to the 215 fps, it would be a rocket! The constant in this equation is the fact that the shooting characteristics of the bow producing these numbers is the same, a long (by todays standards, 37") axle to axle, a decent brace height ( 7 1/2") and a smooth drawing cam. The geometry of the bow in this case would indicate that it should be user friendly.

I see nothing wrong with the desire to have a fast rig as long as that is not the only consideration. While Whitetails are the number one animal to hunt in the country, as has been pointed out, there are many who hunt elk, moose, grizzly, boars, and we won't even mention African game. Penetration is at a premium on these animals. While it is true nothing is more important than shot placement, we cannot deny the fact that which ever formula one uses to define penetration, Ke or momentum, speed is a critical ingredient. Energy harnessed and controlled is tough to beat.

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Actually the .22 LR is the prefered weapon of poachers and could have possibly killed more deer than any other caliber.[8D]

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Nuts, SA you beat me to it:(;):D

Great analogy by the way;)

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Too bad I am not 21 yet.[8D]

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BIGBULLS

Is this real numbers?

I would just like to know,I am looking at buying a new bow.I now shoot a hoyt set to 78# a 30 in arrow with a 150 broadhead. Every one gives me crap about my linken logs I shoot, but every elk I have shot has been a pass though.

ty
charles bradford

RE: speed
 

Speed is only relevant in DRASTIC differences IMO.............why people get worked up over an extra 5 fps here and there is beyond me.

I will use myself as an example.......I have a short draw of 27". I had a Fred Bear TRX and it shot my hunting arrows right around 240 fps. When I bought a new bow I wanted to maximize my speed potential and Bowtech was the fastest bow I shot at my draw length. My Patriot now shoots a heavier hunting arrow at 275 fps.

Is either bow "better" for hunting??..............If I was shooting at an Elk I would say the Patriot but for deer they are both fully capable. The TRX has killed 3 deer in the last 3 years and the patriot took one this fall.

My brother hunts with the TRX now and his two kills were a smashed spine and a pass through so it packs enough power to take a deer no problem.

I do enjoy the flatter shooting Patriot. I can realistically use one pin out to 30 yards and my arrows hit on a nice frozen rope path..........slower bows you can see the arc in the arrow flight when you get out to 30 yards.

You definately don't NEED a super fast bow..........I would say that anywhere near 275 fps is more then enough and most likely overkill. I will be turning my Patriot down this year to about 60 lbs even (maybe 55) on draw weight which will make it rediculously easy to draw and still be plenty deadly with my Stingers...........I'm goin' Nuge style I guess [8D] After needing both hands to pull my arrow out of the ground this year I realized I may be over doing it a bit


I think something that needs to be considered is type of broadhead used as well. If you are shooting 2" mechanicals you better damn well have some power behind that arrow. On the flipside if you shoot Magnus heads like me or SteelForce heads you just need to be accurate and you should get a passthrough.

A poor choice in broadheads can make ANY setup fail.

RE: speed
 

Those numbers should be pretty close to what you should expect form bows with IBO ratings like that. This is assuming that the manufacturers haven't over inflated too terribly bad.;):eek: Of course the more stuff you put on a string the slower it will go.

RE: speed
 

That pretty much sums up my feelings , especially when we're talking about hunting!:eek: I'd much rather watch my arrow slowly make it's way to exactly where I want it to go rather than not even see it miss!

I prefer to leave the arch in archery right where it belongs!

RE: speed
 

The debate could go on for ever so I only have a few things to say Chuck Adams-Super Slam reflex caribou ibo 254fps aluminum XX78 super slam arrows brass nocks string silencers doesn't seem to have any problems taking any type of animal IMO its all about shot placement

RE: speed
 

All things being equal(ESP. ACCURACY), I can't see how I'm possible worse off as a hunter with a faster bow.

RE: speed
 

"All things being equal" your not worse off with a faster bow.

Unfortunately for the majority all things aren't equal. What bothers me the most about the whole speed hype is the novice archer thinking he/she has to get the fastest setup out there without understanding or even knowing about the ramifications involved with having the fastest setup.

The majority of folks here understand the differences and have the skills to shoot the fastest setups without suffering in the accuracy department and/or having a well tuned bow.

I'd bet there are also alot of folks here that would be simply amazed at the accuracy they could achieve just by slowing down their arrows from say 300fps to 250fps.:eek:

RE: speed
 

To get more speed, you always have to give up something. Take any bow and shoot a 350 grain arrow out of it, and then shoot a 550 grain arrow out of it. At higher speeds, bows make more noise than the same bow at a lower speed. Heavier arrows receive more of the potential energy on the shot. If you want to increase the speed (without touching the arrow), something has to give. You have to decrease the brace height, increase the poundage, increase the amount of reflex or put a "harder" cam on it. Each of these may make the bow less shootable or noisier in some situations. Obtain the speed by messing with the arrow and the consequences can be even greater.

Personally, I don't worry about the speed of the arrow. I worry about coming up with the best broadhead-shooting arrow I can. Then I set my bow to a comfortable poundage and make little adjustments to get it as quiet as possible. Whatever the speed happens to be at this point is fine. I don't care if it's 230 fps or 300 fps. Neither is more desirable to me. I don't pick a bow because of it's IBO rating. I choose it because of it's ATA, hight brace height, smooth drawing cam, reasonable valley and non-torqueing grip. The fact that it's rated to shoot an arrow at a particular speed is absolutely irrelavent to me.

Something to consider - all arrows fall approximately at the same rate (gravity determines this.). If I mess with my bow and the arrows, to get the speed up from 240 to 275 fps, I've done very little to help at average hunting distances. Let's take two differents bows set up to shoot those speeds and set the sight for 20 yards. Now let's say we shoot at a target at 30 yards using the 20 yards pin, with each bow. The slow arrow with drop 6" from where the 20 yard pin is aimed. The fast arrow with drop 4.5" from where it's 20 yard pin is aimed. Is is really worth jeapardizing accuracy, quietness, smoothnesss or increase the possibility of hitting a sleeve or not getting the bow drawn for an inch and a half less drop? Not in my book!

RE: speed
 

I'm with bowfanatic and straight arrow on this one. They have summed up my feelings on this better than I could.

RE: speed
 

What is all this about Speed vs accuracy? People are talking like you can't have both. I can under stand with two different bows the issues involving nock travel, brace height, etc. But with the same bow just shooting lighter arrows it is hard to be less accurate just due to a lighter arrow (excluding the obvious 2grpp or something). I can understand if you so light of an arrow that it is underspined or flying out of control fast, but how is going from a 380 gr arrow to a 450 gr arrow going to make me more accurate? Maybe I am missing the boat here, but I thought you could have both. Unless you guys are all refering to the people that take it to the absolute extreme. [&:]

RE: speed
 

I prefer to have my arrow go fast and hit what I aiming at;) So far I am 15 for 15 with my last 2 Patriots and they were both smokin em out there;)

RE: speed
 

I've done 95% of my bowhunting with recurves and longbows, shooting arrows weighing 520 to 680 grains at between 160 to 200 fps. Never once has any of the hundreds of critters I've shot griped that my arrows weren't fast enough. They tasted just fine too.;)

I've been saying for years that most people are taking this speed fixation to unhealthy levels.

RE: speed
 

if you will notice the guy is pretty close to Lousiania where hunting White tail with a 22 LR is legal.

RE: speed
 

as unhealthy as a blunder buss compaired to a 30-06

RE: speed
 

Terrrible comparison. Muzzleloading shotgun vs high powered rifle? C'mon! Let's do this right.

A .223 puts out about the same energy as a 45-70 Gov't, with a lighter, faster bullet and much flatter trajectory. Tell you what. We'll take 2 rounds apiece. You, as the speed whiz, get to take the .223 and I'll take the ol' 45-70 punkin roller. We'll go hunting grizzly bears in heavy cover.

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P.S.

I wasn't insinuating anybody is a poacher, just stating a fact. Sorry if anyone took offense. 22LR isn't leagal for deer in MI.:eek:

RE: speed
 

Aurthur,

I'd take the .223;)[8D]
Naw probably not, but it could kill a bear none the less. as long as it isn't loaded with HP's. Couple solids in the head should do it. ;) I have seen one arrow in the head kill a giant Griz.

RE: speed
 

Actually, depending on which bullets you compare the 45-70 carries close to 1000 more foot pounds at the muzzle. Ironically the lighter 45-70 bullet has a lot more energy than the heavier. That being said, do you think a grizzly that is shot in the head with a 223 is going to be any less dead than a grizzly shot in the heart by a 45-70? At the end of the day all the really matters is personal preference. It's pretty hard to argue with success and I am sure that none of the 15 deer that I have killed with my Patriots in the last three years knew that my "speed" bow or fast arrow was difficult to shoot or get good arrow flight. As a matter of fact, if they were able, I am sure they would argue to the contrary. Could I have killed them with a slower bow or arrow? Probably so. Have I hurt myself in anyway by shooting a fast bow and putting arrows out there in the 280's? I am gonna have to say NO and let the stats speak for themselves.

RE: speed
 

Not saying anymore dead, just dead as well:eek:

and playing around stirring the pot.

By the way I like the rest of what you said

RE: speed
 

You guys miss the part about "in heavy cover"? You got the stones to stand there and take careful aim on the head of a charging griz with a .223? I seriously do doubt it. Point is, you have a very limited shot selection with the .223 and you have to be right on for it to work. I've got a much greater selection of potentially lethal hits with the 45-70 and a better chance of stopping that charging bear.


Yep, and I'll stack my 50 years of success with heavy arrows up against... well, however many you've got.

Do light, fast arrows work? Yes, if you can drive them fast enough. If you hit precisely where you aim. If you have proper shot selection. If you don't try and stretch the shot distance so far the light arrow bleeds off too much speed and energy just cutting through the air. If, if, if....

On the other hand, a heavy arrow has far fewer "if's" and, when shot from the same bow, it ALWAYS arrives on target with more energy and momentum than a light arrow for better penetratation potential. Does that matter with deer? Not really, not if everything goes right. It's those times Murphy takes a hand in the process though...

RE: speed
 

Hmmmm... Do I have the stones...

Yeah.;) No, just playing with you a bit Arthur. I can see both sides of the fence. One side just looks more appealing to me. Granted most of your shots are close, but I like the capability. For example, some of the squirrels I have shot were over 50 yards. Speed is a handy tool in that situation.[8D]

RE: speed
 

and if you can honestly say that you're batting 100% then I'll concede the point;) But again, there is nothing inherently wrong with speed. I personally prefer to shoot in the upper 70's of KE just for those murphy type cases. But, by the same token I saw a woman on video the other day with a 25" draw shooting Gold Tips blow through an elk. She didn't have a heavy arrow and not much speed as compared to what most guys are shooting. I personally prefer a fast bow so I can shoot a heavier arrow and still get lots of speed. It's the best of both worlds. I get great penetration and trajectory all wrapped up into to one. No speed isn't the only component but when used in the right combination it's a wonderful thing to have. I could flip the if situations around. If the animal doesn't duck your arrow, and if you don't slightly misjudge yardage, and if you hit precisely where you aim (that doesn't matter if the arrow is heavy or light) or if you have proper shot selection I am assuming you aren't advocating that it's OK to take bad shots as long as your shooting a heavier arrow)

RE: speed
 

RE: speed
 

Your assumption is correct. Point is, wild animals are not McKenzie targets. They are unpredictable and can move unexpectedly. In the split second of time between it takes for you to decide to commit to the release and for the arrow to leave the bow, what began as a perfect setup on a broadside shot COULD turn into a severe angling shot. I've even seen it happen with a rifle, so it don't bother trying to insult my intelligence by saying a fast arrow will prevent that kind of thing.

Well, duh! You HAVE to. Know why? You have to speed up those light arrows and generate all that energy just to match the amount of MOMENTUM I get with my big ol' logs out of a puny 50 pound recurve. Light arrows work if, and only if, you can stand the draw weight and draw cycles it takes to get 'em moving fast enough to generate enough momentum to make them work. I don't like working that damn hard, so I get my momentum the easy way, with arrow weight.

About videos, I've seen all kinds of stuff on video. I was watching one just the other day where a guy shot a deer, arrow came to a dead stop in the rib cage and the deer ran off. Lo and behold! The guy climbs down outta his tree and walks over to where the deer was and says "There's my arrow. Lots of good sign on that arrow." Now that was quite a trick, seeing as how the deer ran off with the fletchings sticking out his side. Of course, he never picked up that arrow to show to the camera. That would've been an even better trick. LOL

And that's far from the first time I've seen such goings on with light arrows on video. I don't doubt the gal got her elk with a light arrow, but don't try and tell me it 'blew through'. They can't even get 'em to reliably blow through puny little deer on video. Watch a few kill shots in stop frame and you'll what I'm talking about.