RE: speed
 

It might not prevent it but it might make the difference in how severe it is. We always talk about a deer's reaction being quicker than and arrow but if for example a deer's reaction time is .17 seconds and the difference between a fast arrow getting there and slow arrow getting there .10 seconds then that's a huge difference when looked at from that perspective.
Actually, my ex got a pass through on the first doe she killed a few years back shooting a 320 gr. arrow at 208 fps. Figure up them whoppin momentum numbers;)
I realize all these penetration discussions are just opinion but I sometimes wonder if you do. Most of the industry references KE as opposed to Momentum as being the optimum number for judging penetration. You don't hear people referring (at least I don't) to a certain amount of momentum to hunt African game or get pass through on whitetail or on elk etc. However, most all of the manufacturers guides, and experts do reference KE. The charts even say my little ol light arrows are carrying enough KE to take most African game. Silly as I am I tend to believe them. I wouldn't change anything about my setup to hunt anything on the North American continent nor would I to hunt Africa with the possible exceptions of elephant, rhino, and hippo. I honestly believe my setup would be sufficient for cape buffalo and I wouldn't be hesitant to hunt them with it.

Sorry to disappoint you but I mean blew through. As she shot it the cameraman was behind her and the elk was on a slightly uphill grade and you can see the arrow disappear behind the shoulder and then you can see the arrow again a few yards on the other side of the animal as it takes it's path to the ground. So yes I mean BLEW through a big bull elk. I have to admit that I was suprised myself.

RE: speed
 

No kiddin'? :eek: Well, I'm entitled to my opinion and have just as much right to express it as you do. Especially since MY opinion is right.

And why is that? First and foremost, the industry's purpose is to sell bows. Therefore, they talk about things that make it easy to sell bows, regardless of whether or not it's technically correct. Speed is selling so that's what they're pitching. The engineers will give them the numbers the marketing staffers want... if they want to keep drawing a paycheck. Fortunately for them, KE goes hand in hand with speed. They can ring up big numbers in speed and KE to impress the uninformed, which turns out to be 99.9% of their customers. People can grasp 70 foot pounds. They can tell the difference between 70 foot pounds and 60 foot pounds. That's easy to understand. Compare .57501 pound/seconds to .46003 pound/seconds and you might as well be talking some obscure Chinese dialect.

But bows with relatively low KE numbers and heavy arrows can equal the penetration of a bow with high KE and light arrows. Knowing that, I can't see how even the dumbest clod doesn't understand that KE is the wrong thing to be concerned about.

But lets go ahead and talk KE if you want to. I can load a 350 grain arrow on a bow and generate, say, 70 foot pounds. Put a 600 grain arrow on the same bow and generate 72-73 foot pounds. That heavier arrow will start out slower, certainly, but it will retain a much greater proportion of it's speed and energy downrange than the light one will. The light one uses up a whole lot of it's energy just trying to cut it's way through air. It can't even penetrate AIR as well as the heavy arrow, much less flesh and bone.

Next, consider how much sooner an arrow at 300 fps will strike the target at 20 yards vs one doing a mere 240. Answer is roughly 5/100ths of a second. Trajectory over 30 yards, the 300 fps arrow will fly roughly 1" flatter. Better retained energy downrange for negligible cost in flight time and trajectory. Plus a quieter shot. Plus less wear and tear on the bow. (But that goes against the industry's needs again... Can't have people shooting the same bow for 20 years! How in the world would they stay in business!? Gotta talk them into shooting light arrows and wearing those bows out quick!)

But you do hear people referring to legal minimum arrow weights to hunt dangerous game in Africa. Wonder why that is.

RE: speed
 

Just to throw this out there, (I don't have a dog in the fight): Norb Mullaney wrote an article on the debate of KE vs. momentum and concluded KE was the most useful, and significant determination in an arrows penetration potential. He's far from the dumbest clod.

RE: speed
 

Just for giggles we could also throw broadhead design into the equation and it's effects on penetration with regards to KE/momentum and arrow weight .........It's not all about the arrow itself or how fast it's going............naaaaaaaaa some other time.;)

In a less technical sense........I think we can all agree that it would suck to get shot by any of them.:D

RE: speed
 

You got that right.

First.....if archer X can put the fastest arrow in the kill zone, then thats great! If archer Y can put a slower arrow into the kill zone thats great too!

Back in the late 70's and early 80's the top compound bows shot around 185-200 fps and the most popular arrow was a 2117 or 2216. Shooting fingers at 60 lbs. with a 50% letoff, using 2216's, and the ole Rocky Mountain 130 grain heads, I blew through plenty of big whitetails.:D

I'd like to see some accurate and honest reports on kill-to-wound ratios from 25 years ago vs today.;)

RE: speed
 

I'd definately put my money on a higher kill to wound ratio then.

RE: speed
 

True, 500fps, and I've got the greatest respect for the man. However, I specifically had his article in mind when I said, "The engineers will give them the numbers the marketing staffers want... if they want to keep drawing a paycheck." Do keep in mind where his paychecks come from. From the industry, or from magazines who won't allow him to write a fully honest bow report. Can't be ticking off the advertisers, ya know.

Is that cynicism or just a realistic way of looking at it? Probably both.

RE: speed
 

Yea it's all a big conspiracy theory:eek:[:-];)

RE: speed
 

It's not conspiracy, it's the way things are run when they're under control of the freakin' bean counters, lawyers and market analysts. They know they're dealing to a hedonistic society that's more than willing to spend a lot of money and is willing to believe dang near anything they're told, without question. P.T. Barnum marketing at it's finest.

RE: speed
 

I can just about shoot a spit ball through the little deer we have down here, so it's never been an issue I've had to pay much attention to. I can just shoot what I like and I'll be fine.
If I ever get the opportunity to hunt bigger bodied animals it is something I will look into further and try to make an informed descision, but your insight and experience is appreciated.

RE: speed
 

Speed is an asset for 3-D shooting. Range estimation beyond 35 yards is critical. The faster and flatter the arrow trajectory the greater the chances of impact on the target near the sight point, even if the yardage estimate is a bit off. In a hunting situation few hunters will shoot at game at a greater distance than 40 yards. At this range with the help of a range finder or predetermined yardage markers speed is not as important as energy and penetration.;)

RE: speed
 

agreed

RE: speed
 

Whats this statement mean? Do you think its better to use a 22-250 over a 308 because its faster & flatter?

How far you gonna shoot a deer anyway. I know I can hit out past 30 yards but in all honesty I doubt I'v shot one past 25 & I'm sure most were way within 20.

I gun hunt & just like bowhunting the "pro's" will tell you you need a new super duper 300 WSSM or some thing or other fancy flat shooting gun or you'll be screwed in a long shot scenerio.
Then I go out every year with my 30/30 or more recently 45/70 with its rainbow trajectory & get my deer while alot of the up to date guys go home with tags instead.
Its about proficiency with what you choose to use.

I wont buy a new bow because I cant see spending close to $1000 for a new one when I know the one's I have work just fine.

I shot thru a chrono with 2216's this summer & it clocked my arrow at 240 FPS from my Martin, I then switched to 2219's so I reckon theyre going a bit slower now & yet with all that theres 5 less deer in CT this year.

You want speed thats fine, but it IS acuracy that kills. If all you want a fast bow for is so you can sight in at 25 yards & shoot out to 50 with the same pin thats fine by me. Just be sure to practice at that range. Shouldnt knock a guy with a different opinion tho.

RE: speed
 

Bowhunting is all about practice in my opinion, if you dont practice you wont be ready to shoot in the field no matter how fast your bow is. Some people i know bragg that they have the fastest bows out there and act very cocky about it. The funny thing is i shoot just as good as them if not better and I use and old PSE Lightning Flight, its all about practice and hitting the spots.

RE: speed
 

To each is own, I guess, when it comes down to this debate on speed/accuracy/....etc. But if I can place my arrows in a 3 inch group from forty yards using just the first pin of my sight because of the advancement in bow technology (ata, speed, quietness, hand shock...etc.), then guess what - my old trusty Bear Whitetail II will definitely be gotten rid of.


If you don't think that bows of recent (that is, the past 5 years or so) will better your shooting performance in every way, then you're lying to yourself.

RE: speed
 

Im on a low carb diet so I am substituting pork skins for pop corn

RE: speed
 

TroopA,

I don't think the issue in this thread, is modern vs. outdated bows. We have been talking about speed vs what you give up to get it. Assume we're talking about a brand new '05 bow. For instance, I could take my brand new bow, with 8.5" brace, and shoot 800 grains arrows out of it at 60 lbs. I could get an absolutely perfect arrow flight and a super quiet shot, but one thing I won't get is great speed - and I wouldn't care even a little bit.

RE: speed
 

Arthur P wrote: If all things other than KE and mass are equal, that is if the geometry of the arrows are the same and the broad heads are equally sharp such that it takes an equal amount of force to “push” each arrow through the medium, then your statement is absolutely incorrect. All things being equal, arrows carrying equal kinetic energy will penetrate precisely the same amount.

Lets take 2 arrows each carrying 100 ft/lbs of kinetic energy. If there weights are 300 and 600 grains then they will be traveling at 387 and 274 ft/sec respectively. If each “pushes” its way into a medium that for their geometry requires 146 pounds of force you can calculate the penetration for each. I won’t bore everyone with the calculations but the answer is 0.68 feet for both of them. The faster arrow will penetrate to this depth in roughly 3.5 milliseconds and the slower in 5 milliseconds. Just for fun I did the same calculations on an arrow carrying 50 ft/lbs KE that weighed 800 grains. It therefore would be traveling 168 ft/sec and would penetrate this same medium 0.34 feet in a little over 4 milliseconds.