RE: Low light visibilty stinks!
 

If you are having trouble seeing deer (or whatever target) through the peep in low light, and that is why you passed on the shot, your missing the point. With BOTH eyes open, you can shoot in any light that allows you to see the target with your non-peep using eye (left eye for most of us).
The peep useing eye ONLY needs to see the pin, the other eye sees the target. With both eyes open, you can see the target AND the pin.
Much like useing a red dot scope in bright conditions. You put a shade on the end of the scope. I can adjust mine so you can't see ANYTHING but the dot. I STILL hit my targets because my LEFT eye is looking at the target, and my right eye is looking at the sight. Focusing on the target brings the 2 together.
If you choose to shoot instinctive like Arthur, Great!!! It takes a lot of skill to shoot that way.
If you use pins (or crosshairs, or pendulum etc) you CAN make a peep work for you...even with "bad" eyes. The key is setting up the peep correctly, AND shooting with both eyes open. If you can't/won't shoot both eyes open, then I will conceed that you may be better off without them....in low very low light conditions at least.

RE: Low light visibilty stinks!
 

The following statements made by Arthur P and Straightarrow confirm that they are knowledgeable shooters.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>&quot;Drew, centered the pin in the peep…..&quot;<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>&quot;I couldn't tell if the pin was centered in the peep, …&quot;<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>

Being an avid bowhunter, it is exhilarating to be in the company of real shooters. Kudos to Art and Straight for their expertise.

I would not be surprised to discover that many shooters who use a string peep do not realize that you must center the pin in the peep to be accurate, and consistently accurate. I am sure there are many shooters that believe you simply look through the hole, find your pin, and put the pin on the zone.

The knowledgeable shooters using a peep know about the pin centering aspect, and how difficult and distracting it can be to watch the game and try to focus on centering the pin at the same time; especially in low light.

Some peep users will actually set their pin bracket and pins so that the pin is resting at center on the base of the peephole, and at the right/left side of the peephole. I assume that procedure would roughly provide you a sighting system that would be like sight alignment on a firearm.

I sometimes wonder if the problems some shooters are having, shooting and maintaining a good group, occurs because they are not properly using (centering the pin) their peep.



Edited by - c903 on 09/07/2002 12:56:24

Edited by - c903 on 09/07/2002 17:38:03

RE: Low light visibilty stinks!
 

Now that deer season is just about on top of us,I try shooting some very odd shots in the yard for those times that may warrant such a shot in the woods.Centering a peep does take time but if you have practiced enough,the process is automatic,such as an instinctive shooter.


I like to sit flat on my but and face my target at 30 yards,pull bow back while it is still pointed at the target while pulling.I get on the target quick and release.I do not waist time centering the pin in the peep because if you have ever shot this way,you understand how difficult it can be but having the peep insures that I have my anchor solid enough to shoot and make a quick kill.My groups shooting like this are about 4&quot; at 30 yards.I would like to see this shot made that well without a peep.There are some that can do it but it is going to be much more difficult.This is with a 38&quot; bow and I'm only 5'9&quot;.Another topic but shows that short bows aren't needed in the woods.


I also like to sit on my knees perpindicular to the target at 50 yards and shoot.A peep also helps to make this shot.


I realize a peep is not for everyone and have stated that.I also believe that they may be for some that think they can't shoot with them.Like I have said,shooting both eyes open is a key.

Shoot what you are comfortable with but saying a peep is a piece of useless crap is ludicrous and anytime you think so,I would be glad to shoot with anyone in any condition to prove my points.



I would also like to add that I have a couple of very reliable anchor points and anchor very well.I usually don't have to move to center my pin,it is mostly already there.Saying that,I have shot without a peep in the yard while setting up bows.I am accurate but not as accurate as with a peep.30 yards is pretty good but groups start to increase after that.4&quot; groups at 30 if my memory serves me right.

Edited by - tfox on 09/07/2002 15:44:37

RE: Low light visibilty stinks!
 

C903, got a question for ya. Isn't hitting a consistant anchor one of the most important aspects of archery? I was taught to center the sight guard in the peep, and then find your peep, as it keeps your anchor consistant, and its easier to center the big guard instead of the pin. Wouldn't you be changing your anchor slightly when centering each pin? I realize if you sight the bow in this way, you should be changing your anchor consistantly for each pin.

Just curious to what yours, and others thoughts are.

I shoot well with a peep, and with the no-peep, and have been torn to go back to the No-Peep, as I did like the sight picture better with it.

RE: Low light visibilty stinks!
 

Muzzyman88

I have to get on this also.I center with the housing with a scope,and it will move according to yardage.This will actually keep the anchor the same.What changes is the bow arm.

With pins I center off the pin ,this is the same as with a scope and the housing.This is the only way I can see to keep the anchor the same.If you go off the housing,the pin is not centered.I tried to do this myself and it was just too inconsistant.

I prefer the pin to center with and advise it.Others disagree and if it works then go for it.This may be some of the low light problems,the pin is too low in the peep to see it clearly.

Like I stated before,centering is second nature and I don't even notice doing it most of the time,the pin just falls into place.

RE: Low light visibilty stinks!
 

TFOX, I'm not following you bud. How is the bow arm changing? I have been drawing to anchor, and my peep, and sight guard are automatically centered. I then put the appropriate pin on target and make my shot. Is this wrong? I think everything is remaining the same from shot to shot. Also, what I did with my setup is to make sure that my pins are centered in the housing when I was sighting in. This way, they arent closer to the top or bottom, and would ultimately end up in the top or bottom of the peep also. Its worked pretty well for me.

What do you think?

RE: Low light visibilty stinks!
 

IF you have a round pin guard, and you use more than one pin (you you have a movable pin, or pendulum) it is best to center your peep on the pin guard This means your farther shots will have that pin near the bottom of the peep.
The key, is to be consistant. IF you don't have a round pin guard, center the SAME pin in the peep each time, reguardless of which pin your aiming with, use the same pin you always use centered in your peep.
i.e. If your top pin is at 20 yards, and that's where you practice most, use that pin centered in your peep. Now, if you have a 40 yard shot, center the 20 yard pin in the peep, but put the 40 yard pin on the target.
It CAN be done the &quot;other&quot; way, your anchor doesn't change MUCH...but it does change. That is why I feel you should center the pin guard OR the same pin each time.

RE: Low light visibilty stinks!
 

C903, thanks for the compliment, but I'm not an expert. I have big game hunted for 32 years and have drawn on hundreds of animals, so I have a lot of experience in different situations. I know what I can see clearly and what I can't. Just to clarify - I haven't shot hundreds of animals. I pass on many each year, but I frequently draw on them and pretend I'm going to shoot. It gives me valuble practice in deciding when to take a shoot and where to &quot;stop&quot; a deer. I also get to practice drawing without being seen. I never do this on does and I always try to do it unnoticed.

As for when I shoot with a peep. I only shoot with one pin with an odd shaped pin guard, so the pin is all that gets centered. If I had a round pin guard, I'd center the guard to make it a bit easier. I have to squint with my left eye to avoid seeing double so light is decreased a bit further for me. If you have a real consistant anchor, a peep is not needed. The less consistant your anchor, the more valuble the peep will become.

RE: Low light visibilty stinks!
 

Stealth_Force, not to pick on you because I've heard that centering the pin guard stuff independently from various sources. In my opinion, it's bunk. This probably should be a thread unto itself, but since we're discussing it...

I don't know who dictated that the pin guard should be centered in the peep, and that centering an individual pin in the peep changes your anchor but, in my estimation, they're full of blueberry muffins. Yes, the anchor does change, but so darned little it's imperceptable and inconsequential. Here's my reasoning.

Even with my slow ol' bow, the distance from my 20 pin to my 60 pin measures just under an inch. Doing a little trig work to figure out how much deflection a one inch leg on a triangle causes with a 30&quot; side and how much the anchor actually changes...

Formula for finding the hypoteneuse of a right triangle is a^2 + b^2 = c^2 For a triangle with a 30&quot; side and a 1&quot; leg the hypoteneuse is 30.0166...&quot;. c/a = Sine angle C. 1/30.01666 = .03331. Sine .03331 = roughly 54 minutes of angle.

So, less than 1 degree of deflection and just 1/64th of an inch in anchor change. If anyone can prove to me that changing your anchor 1/64&quot; makes any difference whatsoever in arrow placement, or that they can even feel the difference, I'll kiss their butt.

If your pins are more than 30&quot; away from your anchor or your pins are closer together, the deflection and anchor change is even less than this example. I doubt that a majority of bowhunters even have a 60 yard pin on their sight. Very few of those even use that pin for hunting. Normal hunting ranges out to 40 yards, centering an individual pin in the peep doesn't change anchor enough to hardly measure.

Example: Distance between the 20 pin and 40 pin on my sight is .47&quot;. Using our 30&quot; base for our triangle, centering the pins would change the draw length a whopping .0037&quot;. That's 37/10,000ths of an inch!

Centering the pin guard in the peep is a nice theory, but really... It just doesn't make enough difference to mess with. I want THAT specific pin centered in the peep and on target, instead of looking at the whole line of pins and trying to decide which one should be where.

RE: Low light visibilty stinks!
 

Diddo on what Arthur said.


What I meant by bow arm moving is just that the further you are away from the target,the higher you hold your arm to still hit the target.Bow arm changes with every distance change regardless of the way you sight the pin.Didn't mean to confuse.

I have tried the round pin guard stuff and wasn't at all happy with the consistancy of it.I prefer using the individuall pin to give the best possible sight picture available.As a matter of fact the sight that I used didn't even make it a full season and is sitting in a box in the garage for the kids some day.


Like I said before,I do use the housing with my scope and it is always centered but so is the pin.

RE: Low light visibilty stinks!
 

Arthur, No offence taken. By now you know that I can disagree with you and still hold a civil debate :)
I will admit that I have not tested just how much of a differance the change in anchor makes...just knowing that it is different was enough for me.
For MY set up, I actually center my peep ON the pin guard. When at full draw, and I am at my anchor points, I cannot see the bright orange ring around my pin guard (Copper John's) ANY torque, or mis-alignment showes up as an orange line somewhere around my peep.
That's what works for ME.
I'm sure I could hit just fine centering the pins, But being a target archer long before a bow hunter, I want PERFECTION in MY form. The pin guard I use showes torque as well as a no-peep.
I DO conceed that when talking hunting, that 1/64&quot; doesn't mean beans....but KNOWING that it's there KILLS the archer in ME.

RE: Low light visibilty stinks!
 

It's those sights, Stealth! They're the work of the devil! A satanic plot to destroy your confidence in your natural abilities. Trying to make you think you must do things only 'this' way, that 1/64th of an inch will kill your soul. He also invented the mechanical release, trying to get us to believe his machinery is better than your God given fingers of Devine design. Get rid of all that stuff and be FREE!<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

No, really. I know where you're coming from. We strive for consistency on the target range when we're punching dots and anything that moves your anchor, however slightly, does seem to go against the whole point. Frankly, even though some people might be well trained enough to repeat their anchor within 1/64th of an inch, every time there's not many of 'em. There would never be anything but perfect scores shot every time if the human body was that precise.

There are some of us left that don't use sights, but use different aiming systems. Like the technique called 'face walking' where their entire aiming system is based on having a whole list of different anchors, a different one for each distance. String walkers too, where their pull point on the string varies with each distance. Lowly gap shooters like me. 'Instinctive' shooters also. We consider ourselves archers too, and we generally work harder to develop and maintain our skills than sights shooters do.

But your response is a perfect reflection of what I was saying earlier, that sights force you into a rigid shooting form and mental attitude that, I feel, doesn't flow well in the woods. At the end of the day when I'm bone tired, when it's cold, wet and windy, near dark and a buck's coming in, I don't want to be worrying about trying to get my anchor within a 64th of an inch of perfection. I don't want a peep in front of my eye, screening the ambient light and reducing my visibility. I don't want pins in front of my face, dictating how I hold the bow to shoot. I want to look at the deer, pick a spot and let the arrow fly at the best possible moment.

RE: Low light visibilty stinks!
 

Arthur, I ripped the peep off my bow because it was a crutch I didn't want for hunting, and after reading your reasons for not using a sight, I'm about ready to rip that off also. :)

It reminds of of a couple decades ago, before I had ever used a sight. Shooting was definitely simpler back then and I never had a problem taking deer without all these gadgets. Simple can be better when dealing with a hunting situation where the brain doesn't function well and you have to let instinct take over. Taking the sight off this close to hunting season might not be the best idea, but I think I'll be shooting a lot next year without one. <img src=icon_smile_approve.gif border=0 align=middle>

RE: Low light visibilty stinks!
 

<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle> Arthur are you telling us that string walkers and face walkers do not have to have consistant anchor points???? Like heck they don't!!! If a 1/64th of an inch is important to a sight shooter its also important to the other classes of archery. We have had some string walkers at our club, and I think counting stitches on your tab or wraps of serving is a bit difficult at times. How about finding multiple anchors on your face to perform the face walk. How consistant is the inconsistancy to all of this. I do shoot fingers and no sights with my recurve and shoot pretty well comparatively to 20 yds, the limit of my practiced ability for traditional hunting. The fact is that a release is much cleaner, a peep and sights are much more accurate. Otherwise the FITA, NAA, ASA, IBO, and NFAA field and indoor scores would reflect something much different.

Arthur I also feel that a fatiqued archer is just that regardless of the style of archery. I have been there when a barebow or traditional archer tires, the performance drops drastically. At least with sights and pins you have mechanical aids to assist getting you into fairly good shooting position. I agree there are advantages to no sights or peep such as running or walking animal shots. The downside is accuracy for most traditional archers compared to those with sight aimming systems. If I were the archer that won the trad. recently at the NFAA nationals with over a 2400 it would be a moot point. Unfortunately most of us are not that talented.

Aim Hard!

Edited by - FLHunter on 09/09/2002 09:51:28

RE: Low light visibilty stinks!
 

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>The fact is that a release is much cleaner, a peep and sights are much more accurate. Otherwise the FITA, NAA, ASA, IBO, and NFAA field and indoor scores would reflect something much different. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>

No argument with that. However, why not take a look at HUNTING shots a little more realistically. We're shooting at a deer with approximately a 9&quot; kill zone at pretty close range rather than at a half inch X-ring at 20 yards or a FITA target at 90 meters. Pinpoint accuracy a goal that I work constantly to achieve. After all, that's the entire point of competitive archery as a sport. But, in the woods, a couple of inches one way or another from my aiming spot isn't going to make any difference in the outcome of a shot at a deer.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>If a 1/64th of an inch is important to a sight shooter its also important to the other classes of archery. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>

The key word in that sentence is 'if'. IF 1/64&quot; variance in anchor is detrimental to accuracy, then you're right. I still say the human body is not geared up to perform to that level of repeatable accuracy. I doubt there's even a single bow on the market that hits the wall in exactly the same place, every time, within a 1/64&quot; tolerance. Even with draw stops, you can get the ol' adrenaline flowing and bend the limbs an extra .016&quot; after hitting the stops. Even with low stretch string and cables, you can still pick up that much stretch in the rigging system. In the machine shop I worked at, we called this the PWII Syndrome. Preoccupation With Inconsequential Increments.

I never said that everybody should shoot barebow, except in jest. I'm fully aware of the vast differences in people's innate abilities and skills, and I know that I'm pretty well above average with my shooting, but my original point still stands. Putting so much reliance on your equipment that you cannot make a killing shot within spitting distance <font color=red>without the aiming aids</font id=red> is going to cost you. Sooner or later, you're going to have to pass a shot that a 5 year old with a plastic bow and suction cup arrows could easily make.

Edited by - Arthur P on 09/09/2002 12:26:35

RE: Low light visibilty stinks!
 

Arthur,

What you are saying has some merit!!! <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle> However sights and peeps are not the root of all evil and allow more folks into our sport without having to marry their equipment. As far as me hitting something without sights, well thats not a big deal either. I came from the darkside and still shoot the recurve quite often. In fact on Saturday I was up about 20' at treestand height practicing with the recurve on my 3-D animals. Yes a much lower light shot is easier with my recurve, all I have to do is pretty much see the animal within 20yds.

Aim Hard!

RE: Low light visibilty stinks!
 

I tell ya, peeps-n-pins is the work of the devil! Well, actually he just supervises his underlings in that work. Micro-click adjustable scopes on extended sight bars is his personal project. <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

RE: Low light visibilty stinks!
 

I'm with the No-Peep camp on this one. I had one on my bow until I no longer needed it. Now my anchor is consistent enough to do without. I shoot both eyes open, and have a commanding view of my intented target in any shootable light. I started with a peep and soon realized I didn't want one at low light. Obviously Arthur is correct, in that no sight means no obstructions to upset the picture when light is poor. However, with a good bright pin and no peep sight, I can shoot until it's illegal. With good accuracy. It has taken months of shooting every day (nearly) to get the consistency I strive for, but it is possible. It may not be the best setup for spots, but you can turn on lights and take all the time you need. On the 3D range I don't feel at any disadvantage, at all. When hunting you don't always have the luxury of everything being perfect. So for me no peep is what works best.

Phil.

RE: Low light visibilty stinks!
 

Hey,Stealth,there are a lot of target archers here.I am one.Accuracy is my main concern.ALL scope and slide bar users(such as I) move there anchor if you really want to call it that.Even Jeff Hopkins,Dave Cousins,Burley Hall,Tom Crowe,Eric Griggs,Mike Braden,Nathan Brooks and the list goes on and on.These are some of the best in the world.I have shot with some of these.Not saying that I'm in the same class because that would be a bold face lie.The point is that they have achieved some pretty amazing accuracy by shooting a floating anchor.They all use a movable sight and by what some seem to think here is that moves your anchor too much for target archery.This is just a crazy thought.The relationship between the pin and peep will always stay the same,it is just a matter of centering.



Arthur,I feel the same way about saying you have a kill zone of 9&quot; as you do to using light arrows.There are a lot of things that can go wrong in the woods.If a person has a 5&quot; group(well within the 9&quot; kill) at 30 yards and shoots at a 34 yard deer thinking it's 30,they have just wounded the deer to not recover it or missed,or got lucky(no room for luck in my book).Most all will have a 1&quot; drop per yard of misjudgement.On the other hand if you have a 2&quot; group at 30 and miss by 4 yards,provided you shoot center lung,as I do,You have just drilled the deer thru the heart and low lung.What I'm trying to say is for every yard around 30 that is misjudged it adds about 1&quot; to your group,but to the low or high side,according to wether or not you judged short or long.Thank goodness for rangefinders.


Besides,if you shoot the little ones like me,you only have a 6&quot; kill.<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>

Edited by - tfox on 09/09/2002 19:09:31

Edited by - tfox on 09/09/2002 19:11:13

RE: Low light visibilty stinks!
 

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>What I'm trying to say is for every yard around 30 that is misjudged it adds about 1&quot; to your group,but to the low or high side,according to wether or not you judged short or long.Thank goodness for rangefinders.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>

You're going back to what I was talking about earlier. Mechanical shooting style presents too many limitations for my blood. Seems like every mechanical aid works better with another mechanical aid to support it. One of these days it could get to the point where people are mounting their bows on robots and do all their hunting by sitting in front of a computer monitor using a joystick. Won't THAT be fun...<img src=icon_smile_dead.gif border=0 align=middle>

With my style, I don't judge yardage, so the problems you're talking about are not applicable.

RE: Low light visibilty stinks!
 

You may not judge it but you do have to compensate for it either by instinctive measures or by aiming your bow high or low.It still is a factor.Your groups are still affected by the distance.

By saying you have a 9&quot; target is like saying you only need a 9&quot; group at 30 yards to be an affective hunter.That will pretty well eliminate any other factor such as yardage mistakes.

RE: Low light visibilty stinks!
 

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>By saying you have a 9&quot; target is like saying you only need a 9&quot; group at 30 yards to be an affective hunter.That will pretty well eliminate any other factor such as yardage mistakes.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>

No matter what the yardage, there is still a nine inch target. When I shoot 3D, I don't know the yardage and my goal is a hit in the kill zone on every target. It is not the same as saying you need a 9&quot; group at a known yardage. It is saying you need a 9&quot; group no matter the unknown yardage. Completely different comparison. A person who can hit a 9 inch group at an unknown yardage will have a smaller group at a known yardage.

If a person shoots a 30 target 3D and puts every shot with 4.5&quot; of the center of the kill zone, that is very acceptable shooting in my opinion.

RE: Low light visibilty stinks!
 

Oh Boy, a great debate thread like this and somehow I didn't have a chance to open it until this morning. :)

My take on this is rather simple. Yes, shooting without a peep sight or sights in general does require us to train subonscious mental processes which might normally remain dormant and which do come in handy in unusual hunting situations but, to coin Flhunter's terminology, most people don't &quot;marry&quot; their bows. This gets back to the debate about how technology is &quot;ruining&quot; our sport and how a hunter isn't a hunter unless they go out and practice each and every day with their bow in order to be proficient at any given distance.

Technology has given us some advantages, most notably, the ability to not have to go out every day and practice. Is this a bad thing? No, it isn't. Any particular individual can go out and practice if they so desire, on a daily basis, but now we at least have a choice. Does it make us any less ethical because we don't practice as much...no, in my opinion it doesn't...Why? Because our equipment allows us to remain accurate and consistant from day to day without having the need to practice as much.

Now, you may ask why I brought this discussion into this. Well, it seemed to me that this thread was turn into another argument of technology versus past practice...except in this case the little ol' peep sight was to blame.

I have used one of those peeps that <BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>are tied in at three or four sides with string strands running through the shooter's field of view <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>. It is called a Shurz-a-Peep three way or four way. I have been using it for at least 6 or 7 years now and guess what....it has never cost me the opportunity of harvesting an animal.

As is my response in every one of these types of threads....&quot;To each his own&quot;....shoot what you like but don't try to tell me that it is any better or any worse than what I use.


















Edited by - PABowhntr on 09/10/2002 07:50:04

RE: Low light visibilty stinks!
 

Certainly I know whether a deer is at 15, 25 or 35 yards, but I don't have to think 'He's 29.273 yards away and I have to hold this 30 yard pin exactly .237&quot; low to hit that spot.' Takes too long, takes concentration away from where it should be, the deer. When the shot 'feels right' I dump the string. That's also the way I shoot 3D, as practice for hunting. Field archery, I use a hard gap system. Totally different.

One summer, I won 3D tournaments in 5 different classes; compound release, compound fingers, compound barebow, recurve and longbow. (Shooting my heavy logs against the speedy little pultruded knitting needle carbons, by the way.) Who else do you know that can say that? The only style I have never competed in is the open/freestyle unlimited classes. So, I've got a pretty good grasp of the various problems, limitations and advantages of MOST of the various rigs.

IMO, the longbow has fewer problems and limitations than any other setup. It is the perfect bowhunting tool for someone with the time and guts to learn how to use it, and if it weren't for my medical limitations, I'd still be hunting with a longbow, EXCLUSIVELY.

Accuracy... People saying you have to have your anchor within 1/64 th of an inch to shoot accurately makes it sound like you have to shoot consistent 1/2&quot; groups at 30 yards to have a prayer of taking a deer. The way some folks have been going on about this stuff, one would begin thinking that only Olympic Gold Medalists should be hunting. Hunting is not target shooting... even though, IMO, most folks are trying to hunt with 3D target bows....

If you can hit a 9&quot; circle, every time, UNDER HUNTING CONDITIONS, then yes, you can be an effective hunter. If you're talking about standing in front of a target butt, then I agree with you. What ever distance you can hit a 4&quot; circle, MAX, every time, that is your maximum effective range.
But how the hell any of this post ties in to low light visibility is beyond me.
<img src=icon_smile_question.gif border=0 align=middle>

Edited by - Arthur P on 09/10/2002 07:54:36

RE: Low light visibilty stinks!
 

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
But how the hell any of this post ties in to low light visibility is beyond me.
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I was thinking the same thing Arthur. <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle> LOL...good post though!

Like I said earlier...I shoot both eyes open, with a 3/16&quot; peep, and have never had a low light problem...period. If it's too dark for me to be able to see, then it's too dark to be out there, and probably past legal shooting time in most places. My guess is that most folks having low light problems are shooting one eye closed.

PA...I agree, whatever works for the individual, go with it. Personally the peep helps me maintian my consistency.

RE: Low light visibilty stinks!
 

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Hunting is not target shooting... even though, IMO, most folks are trying to hunt with 3D target bows.... <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>

So true, but that's because 3D rewards score at any distance, and hunting is the object of getting close to your quarry.


<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>But how the hell any of this post ties in to low light visibility is beyond me.<img src=icon_smile_question.gif border=0 align=middle><hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>

I see the connection, vaguely. :) It's the debate, &quot;Should I put accuarcy ahead of all else?&quot; when hunting a deer vs., &quot;should I put a priority on gear that will not fail me in any hunting situation and rely upon my skill to get close enough to be in my effective range?&quot; Low-light shooting conditions are just one of those decisions where equipment choices make a difference. One crowd, wants to treat the deer as a target, and the other wants to have a chance no matter what the situation. Neither is completely wrong, but in my opinion, one is more effective than the other.

RE: Low light visibilty stinks!
 

The deer is a target that presents many more variables than a 3-d target.The consequences of a bad shot are more severe on the live animal than on the 3-d one.

It is true that the target on a live animal has a bigger effective kill shot than that of a 3-d target.The 1 thing to remember is the closer you get to the outside of the 9&quot; diameter the better your tracking skills need to be.I guess what I don't like is settling for 6&quot; groups at 30 and justifing it by saying I have a 9&quot; target.You increase the odds of a bad hit on live animals when other factors come into play.If 6&quot; is the best you can do at 30 under perfect conditions,then 20-25 yards should be your max yardage.IMO


Yes,I also agree that to each his own.I have been quite effective with a recurve in the past and have taken a quail in flight with one(luck).I also used to love to play bow golf with them and shooting fish is a blast.



You are right Arthur,we are getting a bit off topic but they relate in a small way.

RE: Low light visibilty stinks!
 

I don't feel I need a peep for hunting, or any shooting I do. Granted I may score better at targets with one, but my groups and accuracy are plenty good to hunt to 35 yds. 25 yds is my personal max, and it's a done deal from there. I feel the lack of a peep allows me to see much better, in any light. I think that we can all become proficient with our chosen setup. It just takes dedication and practice; be it peep, no peep, no sights. If you want the ultimate in visibility, in any light, lose the peep. I'm just not ready to lose the sights.

Phil.