Simplicity?
01-17-2005, 05:58 AM
#1
Boone & Crockett
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Lehigh County PA USA
Posts: 12,157
Simplicity?
Here is a situation that I would like many of you to consider. After being thoroughly involved within the archery community for several years now I am beginning to see an overall trend that interests me. Many of the newer, relatively speaking, equipment designs on the market tend to be created to minimize tuning time and potential accuracy problems. Yet, many of these advances tend to create other areas of concern.
For example, carbon arrows. The ability of ICS carbons to cover much larger spine ranges might make them superior to some people in comparison to aluminums and yet spine/straightness degradation over time seem to take away from that benefit.
Mechanical broadheads tend to reduce the amount of time dedicated to fine tuning since there is a much lesser chance of their windplaning at higher speeds. Yet, the issue of needing increased amounts of kinetic energy in order to get them to function properly restricts the types of setups that they should be utilized with.
Single cam bows do not exhibit any synchronization concerns and yet their longer strings and potential nock travel issues make them less than desirable to many folks looking for increased tunability.
I even see some comments floating around about some of the gear introduced this year at the ATA show.....that new Atom broadhead mentioned in another thread.....Bowtech's Equalizer cam system, etc....
I guess my question is whether or not we trully have made any advances in the last ten years or if we have just traded one set of concerns for another entirely.
I would like to hear everyone's thoughts on this issue.
Thank you ahead of time for the comments.
For example, carbon arrows. The ability of ICS carbons to cover much larger spine ranges might make them superior to some people in comparison to aluminums and yet spine/straightness degradation over time seem to take away from that benefit.
Mechanical broadheads tend to reduce the amount of time dedicated to fine tuning since there is a much lesser chance of their windplaning at higher speeds. Yet, the issue of needing increased amounts of kinetic energy in order to get them to function properly restricts the types of setups that they should be utilized with.
Single cam bows do not exhibit any synchronization concerns and yet their longer strings and potential nock travel issues make them less than desirable to many folks looking for increased tunability.
I even see some comments floating around about some of the gear introduced this year at the ATA show.....that new Atom broadhead mentioned in another thread.....Bowtech's Equalizer cam system, etc....
I guess my question is whether or not we trully have made any advances in the last ten years or if we have just traded one set of concerns for another entirely.
I would like to hear everyone's thoughts on this issue.
Thank you ahead of time for the comments.
01-17-2005, 06:17 AM
#2
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Eastern PA USA
Posts: 1,398
RE: Simplicity?
First of all, it is nice to see you posting questions or info again!
When it comes down to what is really important about shooting - putting an arrow where you want it to go, I don't think there is much difference between a good '95 bow, and a good '05 bow. The new ones are lighter, possibly quieter, definitely less recoil, but if they shoot better, it is only because the shooter thinks they will and has the confidence to make it happen. New bows MAY be somewhat faster, but that old Darton Viper I had (and finally sold) was within 10 fps. of the hotshot Newberry we shot. I also had one 3D shoot where I hit 7 - 10's with 5 Xs to start the shoot with that "obsolete" bow.
I like my QAD drop away, but honestly when I still had the Rampage with the Starhunter on it, it shot just as well as the Tundra with the QAD.
You and many others seem to do quite well with Rockets and other mechanicals. I am shooting enough KE to use them, but will probably shoot Slick Tricks this year. I would call them a decent advance, being able to shoot a strong fixed blade with a big cut, that pretty much flies like a mechanical.
We have much better string materials now, better sights (love fiber optics!), and a gazillion drop aways to choose from, plus the infamous Whisker Biscuit.
There is some better stuff now, but also lots of stuff that does little but keep money rolling in to the manufacturers. People killed deer, etc. back in the '90s, and shot good scores too. It WAS hard to find those little short bows you like back in the '90s though.[8D]
When it comes down to what is really important about shooting - putting an arrow where you want it to go, I don't think there is much difference between a good '95 bow, and a good '05 bow. The new ones are lighter, possibly quieter, definitely less recoil, but if they shoot better, it is only because the shooter thinks they will and has the confidence to make it happen. New bows MAY be somewhat faster, but that old Darton Viper I had (and finally sold) was within 10 fps. of the hotshot Newberry we shot. I also had one 3D shoot where I hit 7 - 10's with 5 Xs to start the shoot with that "obsolete" bow.
I like my QAD drop away, but honestly when I still had the Rampage with the Starhunter on it, it shot just as well as the Tundra with the QAD.
You and many others seem to do quite well with Rockets and other mechanicals. I am shooting enough KE to use them, but will probably shoot Slick Tricks this year. I would call them a decent advance, being able to shoot a strong fixed blade with a big cut, that pretty much flies like a mechanical.
We have much better string materials now, better sights (love fiber optics!), and a gazillion drop aways to choose from, plus the infamous Whisker Biscuit.
There is some better stuff now, but also lots of stuff that does little but keep money rolling in to the manufacturers. People killed deer, etc. back in the '90s, and shot good scores too. It WAS hard to find those little short bows you like back in the '90s though.
[8D]
01-17-2005, 07:43 AM
#4
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Heaven IA USA
Posts: 2,597
RE: Simplicity?
From the standpoint of the materials or components we use today as ingredients in assembling our gadgets and gizmos we have definitely made advancements with few if any trade offs. However after that, it is a matter of what "lens" one chooses to view the archery world through. Perspective, as they say, is everything. The beauty of it, (as I see it) is that a person can get as technical as they want or as simple.
I have some friends that honestly feel that tinkering with modern compounds is a hassle and they shoot with traditional equipment and do it quite efficiently. I would be the first to say the simplicity of it is very refreshing.
On the other hand, the advances that have come in archery in the last ten years make shooting a more pleasureable experience. Bows are faster for the most part, certainly quieter, and definitely more shock free. Did my old bow work, absolutely, it just wasn't as user friendly. Think of what has been done with the quality of bowstrings alone in the last 10 years!!
We don't have to stop at just the bow either. A bow is just one tool in the hunting puzzle. Look at treestands...Yes I have some stands that are over ten years old that I still use but for the most part the newer ones are better all around. Even clothing, better designs, better mass made products on a larger scale, that are made specifically for the bowhunter that were missing ten years ago.
....Of course because of my age, I have a tendency to look beyond your "ten year" parameter. For those of us who graduated with "Fred Flintstone", we know advancements have come a long way.
I have some friends that honestly feel that tinkering with modern compounds is a hassle and they shoot with traditional equipment and do it quite efficiently. I would be the first to say the simplicity of it is very refreshing.
On the other hand, the advances that have come in archery in the last ten years make shooting a more pleasureable experience. Bows are faster for the most part, certainly quieter, and definitely more shock free. Did my old bow work, absolutely, it just wasn't as user friendly. Think of what has been done with the quality of bowstrings alone in the last 10 years!!
We don't have to stop at just the bow either. A bow is just one tool in the hunting puzzle. Look at treestands...Yes I have some stands that are over ten years old that I still use but for the most part the newer ones are better all around. Even clothing, better designs, better mass made products on a larger scale, that are made specifically for the bowhunter that were missing ten years ago.
....Of course because of my age, I have a tendency to look beyond your "ten year" parameter. For those of us who graduated with "Fred Flintstone", we know advancements have come a long way.
01-17-2005, 07:53 AM
#5
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Blissfield MI USA
Posts: 5,293
RE: Simplicity?
I believe the biggest advances are in effeciency, vibration, felt recoil and quietness. However some of the older bows were more forgiving set ups to shoot. You can compare a cheap to mid priced bow of today to a top end bow of 10 to 13 years ago and it is a much better machine. You can get the same speeds with 20 or more less pounds of draw weight, without the vibration and recoil. And the strings are much better as well. But then again they all are on the light side, don't have very much ATA and all have some amount of reflex to them. Making them slightly less stable platforms then the bows of years ago.
As far carbon arrows, I don't really believe they offer a broader spine range per say. They are just stiffer is all. Just get a stiffer aluminum and it is about the same thing in my opinion. If anything aluminums are still the better choice if you want to match your spine better. They offer better tuning abilities and options in my opinion. Not to mention closer tolerences for the money. However carbons have a come LONG way and are still a good choice for tough light arrows. There just not perfect or industructable like people believe they are. Sort of like CD's, Sure they sound better and are suposed to last longer. However in reality you have to be just as careful with them as you did records or they will get ruined and not be worth a flip. Actually they are easier to mess up in my opinion. And while I love DVD's, A video tape can take MUCH more abuse and still play well.
And rests, well the drop aways are cool, but I don't see any great advantage with them. I don't shoot any better with them then I do a good prong rest. The only reason you really need them is because of the skinny carbons with vanes. Not to mention most of them set you up with a slight overdraw which is a bit more unforgiving to shoot.
Paul
As far carbon arrows, I don't really believe they offer a broader spine range per say. They are just stiffer is all. Just get a stiffer aluminum and it is about the same thing in my opinion. If anything aluminums are still the better choice if you want to match your spine better. They offer better tuning abilities and options in my opinion. Not to mention closer tolerences for the money. However carbons have a come LONG way and are still a good choice for tough light arrows. There just not perfect or industructable like people believe they are. Sort of like CD's, Sure they sound better and are suposed to last longer. However in reality you have to be just as careful with them as you did records or they will get ruined and not be worth a flip. Actually they are easier to mess up in my opinion. And while I love DVD's, A video tape can take MUCH more abuse and still play well.
And rests, well the drop aways are cool, but I don't see any great advantage with them. I don't shoot any better with them then I do a good prong rest. The only reason you really need them is because of the skinny carbons with vanes. Not to mention most of them set you up with a slight overdraw which is a bit more unforgiving to shoot.
Paul
01-17-2005, 08:38 AM
#6
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 9,175
RE: Simplicity?
I always judged my bows on accuracy, consistency, forgiveness, tunablility, reliability and quietness, with arrow speed way back in the pack as something I wanted. The #1 thrust of bow advancements over the past 15 years has been toward arrow speed, so I feel advancements have come along way, but down the wrong path. Arrow speed is nice, but they've forfieted way too many other things to get it.
Today's bows, judging from what I've seen on the field archery range where consistent accuracy and forgiveness are paramount, fall way short. My field archery scores drop a solid 50-75 points with a modern bow vs what I shoot with my old ProVantages or SuperSlams... even my old 84 model ProHunter could shoot rings around these new ones on the field archery course. Only 4 years ago, I won a 3D shoot with my old SuperSlam Legacy vs a lot of guys with the latest Mathews bows.
Judging from my own experience with the later model bows, it takes some serious time and effort to tune the ^%&!s and they won't hold a proper tune for more than a month of serious shooting. I love tinkering with bows when I WANT to, but I hate tinkering with them when I HAVE to, and I 'have to' far too often with modern bows. It flat pisses me off when I want to go out and enjoy a few relaxing hours of shooting, but have to spend those few hours pressing my bow, twisting up stings and cables....
Even the new and improved strings and cables don't eliminate creep.
Well, to make a long story at least a bit shorter, I won't be buying another compound. Too much time and effort goes into keeping them up and running, time I'd rather spend shooting arrows. Traditional equipment gives me everything I'm looking for. Effective range is a third of what I can do with a compound, and the compounders laugh when I miss a target that's further than I'm comfortable with, but that's okay. I can laugh when their releases pre-fire, dropaways don't drop, when they pick the wrong pin...
[8D]
Today's bows, judging from what I've seen on the field archery range where consistent accuracy and forgiveness are paramount, fall way short. My field archery scores drop a solid 50-75 points with a modern bow vs what I shoot with my old ProVantages or SuperSlams... even my old 84 model ProHunter could shoot rings around these new ones on the field archery course. Only 4 years ago, I won a 3D shoot with my old SuperSlam Legacy vs a lot of guys with the latest Mathews bows.
Judging from my own experience with the later model bows, it takes some serious time and effort to tune the ^%&!s and they won't hold a proper tune for more than a month of serious shooting. I love tinkering with bows when I WANT to, but I hate tinkering with them when I HAVE to, and I 'have to' far too often with modern bows. It flat pisses me off when I want to go out and enjoy a few relaxing hours of shooting, but have to spend those few hours pressing my bow, twisting up stings and cables....
Even the new and improved strings and cables don't eliminate creep.
Well, to make a long story at least a bit shorter, I won't be buying another compound. Too much time and effort goes into keeping them up and running, time I'd rather spend shooting arrows. Traditional equipment gives me everything I'm looking for. Effective range is a third of what I can do with a compound, and the compounders laugh when I miss a target that's further than I'm comfortable with, but that's okay. I can laugh when their releases pre-fire, dropaways don't drop, when they pick the wrong pin...
[8D]
01-17-2005, 12:55 PM
#7
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Central PA
Posts: 2,299
RE: Simplicity?
This is definitely a well thought out question.
I personally feel we have traded one set of concerns for another in most aspects. I can't think of a single product that does not raise any concerns. Some products are very new and inventful, while others are a tweak of an existing product, improving on the overall design.
Also, think about all of the products that were actually invented years ago, but simply never caught on. The Cam 1/2 from Hoyt is a good example. Though it was invented some time ago, it never caught on until Hoyt "revolutionized" the system.
I think material advancements have come a long way in bow manufacturing. Though a lot of designs are innovative, most are simply confined to the restrictions of the materials being used. I'm sure they can go even further with design and materials, but then the prices would sky rocket well beyond the ridiculous amounts they are now.
I personally feel we have traded one set of concerns for another in most aspects. I can't think of a single product that does not raise any concerns. Some products are very new and inventful, while others are a tweak of an existing product, improving on the overall design.
Also, think about all of the products that were actually invented years ago, but simply never caught on. The Cam 1/2 from Hoyt is a good example. Though it was invented some time ago, it never caught on until Hoyt "revolutionized" the system.
I think material advancements have come a long way in bow manufacturing. Though a lot of designs are innovative, most are simply confined to the restrictions of the materials being used. I'm sure they can go even further with design and materials, but then the prices would sky rocket well beyond the ridiculous amounts they are now.
01-17-2005, 01:27 PM
#8
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Havertown PA USA
Posts: 232
RE: Simplicity?
I'm also gald to see you back Pa. Now that most hunting seasons are over and the ATA show is behind us I hope some of the regular guys return with some new techie stuff.
This is a subject I'm always reminded of when I visit another site. I think the advancements in equip. has come along in it's natural pace. We have contributed to that pace and direction as consumers. Over all I think most of the improvements have made this sport better. I think Limb pocket design, limb material, String material Let-off and cam design are some of the advancements that have contributed to a more shooter friendly equipment.
I think the speed thing is about over for most shooters I talk to. The difference today is you can reach top speeds of 300+ fps at lower poundage with the newer equipment and it's components compared to 15 years ago. Release aids, string loops, sights and pins have contributed to a higher accuracy level compared to components of the 80's. The difference I see today is the competiton is getting better. The scores are the same as years past. The difference is more people can achieve thses scores with todays equipment being more shooter friendly then the unforgiveing equipment of yesterday.
Authur I don't usually disagree with most of your post but I seem to tune less today then I ever have. I also love to tinker with bows (almost to a fault) but found out the hard way to keep my hands off them once I have them shooting in the sweet spot. I always thought I could get it to shoot JUST a little better. So to the press I'd go. Then To find out I'm back at square one and all I did was frustrate my self. The three bows I shoot now two are hybrid cams and one is a duel cam all have the newer string material. Which I think is the key compared to the fast flight and dacron sting of the 80's. I still have to tweak them but nowhere near as ofter as before. JMO
Pa,not to hijack this thread but how far is too far with advancement? Or is there such a place? I seperate bowhunting from target archery. My equipment though different components is the same. Is bowhunting going to get to a point where we as bowhunters need to look at restrictions with our equipment to keep the sport at the primitive levels of today? Or have we gone to a point of no return? Jerry
This is a subject I'm always reminded of when I visit another site. I think the advancements in equip. has come along in it's natural pace. We have contributed to that pace and direction as consumers. Over all I think most of the improvements have made this sport better. I think Limb pocket design, limb material, String material Let-off and cam design are some of the advancements that have contributed to a more shooter friendly equipment.
I think the speed thing is about over for most shooters I talk to. The difference today is you can reach top speeds of 300+ fps at lower poundage with the newer equipment and it's components compared to 15 years ago. Release aids, string loops, sights and pins have contributed to a higher accuracy level compared to components of the 80's. The difference I see today is the competiton is getting better. The scores are the same as years past. The difference is more people can achieve thses scores with todays equipment being more shooter friendly then the unforgiveing equipment of yesterday.
Authur I don't usually disagree with most of your post but I seem to tune less today then I ever have. I also love to tinker with bows (almost to a fault) but found out the hard way to keep my hands off them once I have them shooting in the sweet spot. I always thought I could get it to shoot JUST a little better. So to the press I'd go. Then To find out I'm back at square one and all I did was frustrate my self. The three bows I shoot now two are hybrid cams and one is a duel cam all have the newer string material. Which I think is the key compared to the fast flight and dacron sting of the 80's. I still have to tweak them but nowhere near as ofter as before. JMO
Pa,not to hijack this thread but how far is too far with advancement? Or is there such a place? I seperate bowhunting from target archery. My equipment though different components is the same. Is bowhunting going to get to a point where we as bowhunters need to look at restrictions with our equipment to keep the sport at the primitive levels of today? Or have we gone to a point of no return? Jerry
01-17-2005, 02:00 PM
#9
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 9,175
RE: Simplicity?
I dunno, Jerry. Maybe if I'd kept a journal on each and every time I had to retune various bows I could make some kind of definitive answer, but I didn't. All I know for fact is I spent too much time tweaking and twisting when I wanted to be shooting. With a recurve or longbow, I just string it up, check brace height to make sure it's right and go.
It do get frustrating, for sure, when you're trying to get the tune job just right, tweaking for that last little bit and wind up losing it all. I actually had to walk 25 yards downrange once to pick up my bow after that happened to me. That's as far as I could throw it.[:@][&:]
It do get frustrating, for sure, when you're trying to get the tune job just right, tweaking for that last little bit and wind up losing it all. I actually had to walk 25 yards downrange once to pick up my bow after that happened to me. That's as far as I could throw it.[:@][&:]
01-17-2005, 05:18 PM
#10
Boone & Crockett
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Lehigh County PA USA
Posts: 12,157
RE: Simplicity?
Jeff,
Thanks for the kind thoughts. I have been around most days but just have not felt the urge to post. I have been sort of dumping my time and energy into another pursuit of mine that probably only Black Frog could appreciate.
I think you are pretty much mirroring my thoughts on the issue. It seems like we have just exchanged one design or one type of gadget for another without much of a revolutionary step forward. I would agree that better component designs, manufacturing and materials have helped to improve the durability and reliability of the compound bow but not much more.
CBM SC,
I am guessing that was said "tongue in cheek"...
Antler Eater,
That I tend to agree with and yet there are so many things that continue to baffle and confuse me. Again, if we can refer to carbon arrows. I do continue to enjoy and be satisfied with relative "garden variety" ICS style carbons and yet based on what I read from some very knowledgable folks they shouldn't shoot very well for me...especially after an extended period of time. Maybe it is that I just don't shoot enough....or that I don't shoot well enough to notice the difference in accuracy in some cases. I honestly do not know.
I will say though that when I find a combination that works I prefer to stick with it despite what current board opinion might suggest.
Paul,
I tend to agree with most of what you posted but if I had to pick one thing out to disagree with it would be this statement.
Relating back to my original post I would ask "At what cost?" Yes, today's bows are faster but doesn't that go along with a stiffer force draw curve? It seems like that is that route that several manufacturers have chosen to follow. They (the bows) have larger brace heights but the riser designs tend to be more reflexed and the cams seem to create such a plateaued force-draw curve that I wonder whether or not anything really has been gained. I am sure that more efficient limb design/materials contribute somewhat as does string materials but really...how much?
"And rests, well the drop aways are cool, but I don't see any great advantage with them. I don't shoot any better with them then I do a good prong rest. The only reason you really need them is because of the skinny carbons with vanes. Not to mention most of them set you up with a slight overdraw which is a bit more unforgiving to shoot. "
My point entirely. One series of trade-offs for another.
Arthur,
To some extent I agree with you and your approach to archery and the situation in question....and yet on the other hand you aren't ever going to see me shooting those big honkin' cut on contact heads that you are so fond of. I just don't have the ambition to be tuning my rigs that much so that I can get those style of heads to fly as accurately as you can get them to.
MM88,
I believe you understand what I am saying and restated it quite succinctly. Just to throw it out there in a single question....Why change if there really isn't a significant benefit?
Jerry,
Thank you as well. I do hope to post a bit more often but it was not really the ATA show nor hunting that kept me away from the forums that much in the last month or so. I keep waiting to see something that will really get my juices flowing again. Not another twist on the same ol' concept but something trully head-turning.
If I may single out this one comment...and not because of your reference to Arthur....it leads me back somewhat to part of the intent of my original post.
Is today's equipment geared towards and heading to less tuning? A trully maintenance free (or shall we say maintenance-reduced) bow?
At what cost I might ask?
Thanks folks for all the comments. It continues to give me food for thought.
Thanks for the kind thoughts. I have been around most days but just have not felt the urge to post. I have been sort of dumping my time and energy into another pursuit of mine that probably only Black Frog could appreciate.
I think you are pretty much mirroring my thoughts on the issue. It seems like we have just exchanged one design or one type of gadget for another without much of a revolutionary step forward. I would agree that better component designs, manufacturing and materials have helped to improve the durability and reliability of the compound bow but not much more.
CBM SC,
I am guessing that was said "tongue in cheek"...
Antler Eater,
On the other hand, the advances that have come in archery in the last ten years make shooting a more pleasureable experience.
I will say though that when I find a combination that works I prefer to stick with it despite what current board opinion might suggest.
Paul,
I tend to agree with most of what you posted but if I had to pick one thing out to disagree with it would be this statement.
You can get the same speeds with 20 or more less pounds of draw weight, without the vibration and recoil.
"And rests, well the drop aways are cool, but I don't see any great advantage with them. I don't shoot any better with them then I do a good prong rest. The only reason you really need them is because of the skinny carbons with vanes. Not to mention most of them set you up with a slight overdraw which is a bit more unforgiving to shoot. "
My point entirely. One series of trade-offs for another.
Arthur,
To some extent I agree with you and your approach to archery and the situation in question....and yet on the other hand you aren't ever going to see me shooting those big honkin' cut on contact heads that you are so fond of. I just don't have the ambition to be tuning my rigs that much so that I can get those style of heads to fly as accurately as you can get them to.
MM88,
I believe you understand what I am saying and restated it quite succinctly. Just to throw it out there in a single question....Why change if there really isn't a significant benefit?
Jerry,
Thank you as well. I do hope to post a bit more often but it was not really the ATA show nor hunting that kept me away from the forums that much in the last month or so. I keep waiting to see something that will really get my juices flowing again. Not another twist on the same ol' concept but something trully head-turning.
Authur I don't usually disagree with most of your post but I seem to tune less today then I ever have.
Is today's equipment geared towards and heading to less tuning? A trully maintenance free (or shall we say maintenance-reduced) bow?
At what cost I might ask?
Thanks folks for all the comments. It continues to give me food for thought.