Merlin Bows...Don't overlook them!
09-02-2002, 08:09 PM
#31
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location:
Posts: 2,413
RE: Merlin Bows...Don't overlook them!
Pinwheel,
I appreciate your well thought out and detailed explanation of twin vs single cam. I've heard these explanations before and I have no reason to argue otherwise. I'm quite certain that the twin cam bow will be a bit more forgiving for some, or maybe even most archers, however, I do wonder if it's primary benefit is in target archery. I don't know a single bowhunter that knows how to tune their twin cams, much less how to perform a creep-tuning (I'm sure they exist, just not many of them). I think the average archer would find the twin cam more forgiving if they knew to tune it once a year and learned the tuning methods, but unfortunately, that's not likely to be the case. In addition to that, the average 15 to 20 yard bowhunting shot, is probably affected greater by far more factors than just raw target shooting ability. I think those with a lot of experience and in the top 10% in shooting ability will probably shoot a single cam more than adequately enough to be considered a good choice for hunting. Conversely, those without much experience or knowledge, might be better off with a bow that doesn't require much in the way of tuning.
I need to listen to someone who is shooting a new twin cam to get an idea of how quiet they can be made. I shoot in an area where the vast majority of shooters are hunters who also shoot an occasional 3D tournament. It seems almost every new bow around here is a single cam. The one league I shoot, takes place at a Mathews dealership and a vast majority of all the bows used in this league are Mathews. Out of the 100 shooters in the league, I'm one of about 15-20% shooting something else. The few twins being shot are at least a few years old and they all make noticably more noise than the single cams. Once again, I get back to the fact, that I need to be able to shoot one before I could make that decision.
I appreciate your well thought out and detailed explanation of twin vs single cam. I've heard these explanations before and I have no reason to argue otherwise. I'm quite certain that the twin cam bow will be a bit more forgiving for some, or maybe even most archers, however, I do wonder if it's primary benefit is in target archery. I don't know a single bowhunter that knows how to tune their twin cams, much less how to perform a creep-tuning (I'm sure they exist, just not many of them). I think the average archer would find the twin cam more forgiving if they knew to tune it once a year and learned the tuning methods, but unfortunately, that's not likely to be the case. In addition to that, the average 15 to 20 yard bowhunting shot, is probably affected greater by far more factors than just raw target shooting ability. I think those with a lot of experience and in the top 10% in shooting ability will probably shoot a single cam more than adequately enough to be considered a good choice for hunting. Conversely, those without much experience or knowledge, might be better off with a bow that doesn't require much in the way of tuning.
I need to listen to someone who is shooting a new twin cam to get an idea of how quiet they can be made. I shoot in an area where the vast majority of shooters are hunters who also shoot an occasional 3D tournament. It seems almost every new bow around here is a single cam. The one league I shoot, takes place at a Mathews dealership and a vast majority of all the bows used in this league are Mathews. Out of the 100 shooters in the league, I'm one of about 15-20% shooting something else. The few twins being shot are at least a few years old and they all make noticably more noise than the single cams. Once again, I get back to the fact, that I need to be able to shoot one before I could make that decision.
09-02-2002, 10:54 PM
#32
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Havertown PA USA
Posts: 232
RE: Merlin Bows...Don't overlook them!
Look at you guys. I go away for the long week-end and you bring up my favorite topic. Merlins. As some of you know I shoot a Max 2000. I have to agree Sag and Pinwheel about this bow. It felt great in my hands even before I shot it. The grip, the balance and the feel of the draw cycle is as good if not better then any bow I've ever felt.I odered mine with the duel cams and before the new cabon limbs where out and couldn't imagine it shooting any better. Well I was wrong. I recently up-graded to the new profusion limbs and felt the difference at the gate. Someone said a bow won't make the shooter. I some what agree. Well if that bow fits and feels right in your hands it'll definitly improve your scores or group size. It has for me. I've shot some good top-end bows from some of the best manufactures but this Max 2000 edges out all I have ever shot or owned. I could go on but the only way for anyone to apprecate the bow is to shoot it. If your serious about this sport and looking for a top-end bow do yourself a favor and go out of your way if need be to shoot one. I had to travel 2.5 hrs to see this Merlin and it was worth it. The cream on top is the customer service. Second to none. How many companies have the owner on the other end of your e-mails or phone calls. If there is any down side with Merlin it's only that it takes about 10 days to get anything by mail. I had a splinter in a limb and they never blinked and eye the sent me my new ones no charge no hassel. I usually buy a bow every year but I won't this year and next year I know it'll be a Merlin hands down. Jerry
09-03-2002, 04:53 AM
#33
Typical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: .. NH USA
Posts: 970
RE: Merlin Bows...Don't overlook them!
W460-
Color is a personal thing. Whatever floats your boat. They are all excellent. Most people are shooting the ARC or the Britesite Pro-Tuner, and a few of us are shooting the GKF Golden Premier with Carbon Supreme launcher. For hunting alot of my customers are using the Bodoodle Pro-500 or Pro-lite.
Ausie guy-
Yes, The Max is now currently available with the t-wheels, and Sag is correct, all target limbs are now silver. Camo bows have matching limbs.
Straight arrow--
My point exactly. That is why I and other techs who have been in this business many years are in business! (So guys can go and have things done by an expert technician) Otherwise, there would be no need for Pro-shops at all except for people to go play "touchy-feely" when they are bored from watching their favorite TV shows! <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
Jerry--
Nice to hear from you!
Good shooting, Pinwheel 12
Color is a personal thing. Whatever floats your boat. They are all excellent. Most people are shooting the ARC or the Britesite Pro-Tuner, and a few of us are shooting the GKF Golden Premier with Carbon Supreme launcher. For hunting alot of my customers are using the Bodoodle Pro-500 or Pro-lite.
Ausie guy-
Yes, The Max is now currently available with the t-wheels, and Sag is correct, all target limbs are now silver. Camo bows have matching limbs.
Straight arrow--
My point exactly. That is why I and other techs who have been in this business many years are in business! (So guys can go and have things done by an expert technician) Otherwise, there would be no need for Pro-shops at all except for people to go play "touchy-feely" when they are bored from watching their favorite TV shows! <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
Jerry--
Nice to hear from you!
Good shooting, Pinwheel 12
09-03-2002, 06:04 AM
#35
Typical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: .. NH USA
Posts: 970
RE: Merlin Bows...Don't overlook them!
The T-wheels are primarily made for spot-shooting. They are round wheels, with modularly-adjustable 55% or 65% let-off and choice of soft-wall (long valley) or hard-wall (solid stop).This option is an industry first, by the way. The Rapid cams are an extremely smooth-drawing, faster cam, 65% let-off, with 1" modular adjustment.
For an "all around bow", you should opt for the Rapid cams, IMO. With this configuration the Max has the speed necessary to compete in formats such as 3D, and will fling a heavier hunting arrow at reasonable speeds. The accuracy is still built-in, this bow has won many World Championships and broken a few World Records with this configuration. If you are primarily a spot shooter, the T-wheels will fit the bill for you, but personally I feel that if you are going to go for the t-wheels, pick the bow best-suited for that application also, which will be the longer ATA, deeper brace Supernova. Ben Jones just set a new European Record with the T-wheels on his Max, but it should be noted also that he held the European record with the Max with Rapid cams prior to that. He will soon be shooting the Supernova in competition also, he just didn't have time to get one set-up and broken in before the Championships this year. Whatever floats your boat and what applications you will be using the bow for is what should determine which bow/cam combo you should utilize. Good shooting, Pinwheel 12
For an "all around bow", you should opt for the Rapid cams, IMO. With this configuration the Max has the speed necessary to compete in formats such as 3D, and will fling a heavier hunting arrow at reasonable speeds. The accuracy is still built-in, this bow has won many World Championships and broken a few World Records with this configuration. If you are primarily a spot shooter, the T-wheels will fit the bill for you, but personally I feel that if you are going to go for the t-wheels, pick the bow best-suited for that application also, which will be the longer ATA, deeper brace Supernova. Ben Jones just set a new European Record with the T-wheels on his Max, but it should be noted also that he held the European record with the Max with Rapid cams prior to that. He will soon be shooting the Supernova in competition also, he just didn't have time to get one set-up and broken in before the Championships this year. Whatever floats your boat and what applications you will be using the bow for is what should determine which bow/cam combo you should utilize. Good shooting, Pinwheel 12
09-03-2002, 06:28 AM
#36
Typical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: .. NH USA
Posts: 970
RE: Merlin Bows...Don't overlook them!
There is basically the same twin/solo debate going on on another messageboard, with some quite interesting reading. I picked this response out from Geroge Ryals 4, who for those that do not know is a premier archer and designer/manager for Martin Archery, who offers both solos and twins to the Archery community--
{Quote}-
"The first three times a single cam system was introduced to the archery community, advertisers did not tout it as a fix for a problem. (DynaBo, Spartan, and Unistar) It was introduced as an option, not a fix for something real or imagined.
This last time it was re-introduced, it was advertised as a fix for a mysterious problem. Customers were given the impression that you did not have to tune them and that the bow that they were currently using was flawed. In reality they come with their own set of problems that you have to contend with. When I first saw the ads and the bows I thought the claims were outlandish and that it would never fly. Well that was my first lesson in the power of advertising.
Those familiar with the Creep Tune method will agree that wheel timing is no more a hassle than adjusting a nock set. However, unsuspecting bow hunters, who were completely unaware of wheel timing, were told that their bows were no good. They were also unaware of the problems that a 100+ string would cause, the affect it has on nock sets and peeps, or what happens when you have a different dynamic action on each end of the bow
Here is a little food for thought. If the single cam system is advertised to be the best and a replacement for two cams, why does every other manufacturer still offer two cam systems? Second, if there are real problems with two cam systems, why haven’t the two cam manufactures released a fix for the problem each year like the single cam pushers have for their systems?
__________________
Don't overthink it; you might outsmart yourself.
George Ryals IV
{End Quote}
Just more food for thought. Pinwheel 12
Edited by - Pinwheel 12 on 09/03/2002 07:30:46
{Quote}-
"The first three times a single cam system was introduced to the archery community, advertisers did not tout it as a fix for a problem. (DynaBo, Spartan, and Unistar) It was introduced as an option, not a fix for something real or imagined.
This last time it was re-introduced, it was advertised as a fix for a mysterious problem. Customers were given the impression that you did not have to tune them and that the bow that they were currently using was flawed. In reality they come with their own set of problems that you have to contend with. When I first saw the ads and the bows I thought the claims were outlandish and that it would never fly. Well that was my first lesson in the power of advertising.
Those familiar with the Creep Tune method will agree that wheel timing is no more a hassle than adjusting a nock set. However, unsuspecting bow hunters, who were completely unaware of wheel timing, were told that their bows were no good. They were also unaware of the problems that a 100+ string would cause, the affect it has on nock sets and peeps, or what happens when you have a different dynamic action on each end of the bow
Here is a little food for thought. If the single cam system is advertised to be the best and a replacement for two cams, why does every other manufacturer still offer two cam systems? Second, if there are real problems with two cam systems, why haven’t the two cam manufactures released a fix for the problem each year like the single cam pushers have for their systems?
__________________
Don't overthink it; you might outsmart yourself.
George Ryals IV
{End Quote}
Just more food for thought. Pinwheel 12
Edited by - Pinwheel 12 on 09/03/2002 07:30:46
09-03-2002, 07:42 AM
#37
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Lehigh County PA USA
Posts: 12,157
RE: Merlin Bows...Don't overlook them!
Pinwheel,
You forgot about lower in vibration and recoil too...<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>
<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
Seriously though, I would like to hear what you have to say about some of the newer single cam designs that utilize a softer drawing single cam with split strings...like the Browning Cyber cam, Hoyt Versa/Excel cams and Darton CPS systems. They would seem to not have some of the problems that you mentioned...ie, the hard draw cycle, etc....
You forgot about lower in vibration and recoil too...<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>
<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
Seriously though, I would like to hear what you have to say about some of the newer single cam designs that utilize a softer drawing single cam with split strings...like the Browning Cyber cam, Hoyt Versa/Excel cams and Darton CPS systems. They would seem to not have some of the problems that you mentioned...ie, the hard draw cycle, etc....
09-03-2002, 10:49 AM
#38
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location:
Posts: 2,413
RE: Merlin Bows...Don't overlook them!
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
{Quote}-When I first saw the ads and the bows I thought the claims were outlandish and that it would never fly. Well that was my first lesson in the power of advertising....George Ryals IV
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
Sounds like the advocates of the twin cam should counteract this with their own effective advertising campaign.
My guess is, it will be a tough road ahead of them. I believe many hunters have experienced the same thing I have. My single cam bow is enjoyed more than my last twin cam, because it is quieter, has less hand shock, seems to be easier to keep tuned and I'm shooting at least as well with it as my latest twin cam (never creep-tuned it, because I didn't know how back then).
To overcome this good experience will take some good advertising to show us hunters why a new twin cam is better. Hunters will readily switch if convinced that the twin cam is better for hunting than the single cam, but I believe manufacturers have their work cut out for them, to make that one fly.
{Quote}-When I first saw the ads and the bows I thought the claims were outlandish and that it would never fly. Well that was my first lesson in the power of advertising....George Ryals IV
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
Sounds like the advocates of the twin cam should counteract this with their own effective advertising campaign.
My guess is, it will be a tough road ahead of them. I believe many hunters have experienced the same thing I have. My single cam bow is enjoyed more than my last twin cam, because it is quieter, has less hand shock, seems to be easier to keep tuned and I'm shooting at least as well with it as my latest twin cam (never creep-tuned it, because I didn't know how back then).
To overcome this good experience will take some good advertising to show us hunters why a new twin cam is better. Hunters will readily switch if convinced that the twin cam is better for hunting than the single cam, but I believe manufacturers have their work cut out for them, to make that one fly.
09-03-2002, 01:16 PM
#39
Typical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: .. NH USA
Posts: 970
RE: Merlin Bows...Don't overlook them!
Frank-
The Darton CPS is a "hybrid", more twin cam than it is solo. It does handle and shoot well, and IMO is the best "non twin cam" system going.Thankfully they went their own way some years ago, otherwise they too, would be in the same boat as most manufacturers today.
The Browning Cyber cam does nothing for me really, in fact I've only shot one once so cannot readily comment heavily on them other than stifle a yawn.
The Hoyt cams and dual-track idler are actually twin cams, you just don't know it!<img src=icon_smile_shock.gif border=0 align=middle> Anytime you have a string or cable that is CONNECTED to a wheel or cam in any way, it must be counted as a "power source" and is not a true solocam because that postion is being "actuated" due to a stop/start string /cable position. If it runs up and AROUND the wheel and rests on it instead of actuating it with the ending loop on the post, then it is deemed an "idler", and therefore will be a true "conventional solocam" because it is not doing anything and is not a "stop" for a string or cable, regardless of whether the cam does the actual work or not. Technically I guess we can now call them a "hybrid", also. Don't feel bad, Diamond and Alpine had them, too.
As someone said, "if they keep on upgrading the solos, they will re-invent the twin cam". They are definately heading in that direction, my friend!
As stated, it really doesn't matter to me what you want to shoot, as long as you're comfortable shooting it. But many techs and designers and Pros concur with me, and I suspect a "turning of the trend" as more people figure these things out. <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle> Good shooting, Pinwheel 12
The Darton CPS is a "hybrid", more twin cam than it is solo. It does handle and shoot well, and IMO is the best "non twin cam" system going.Thankfully they went their own way some years ago, otherwise they too, would be in the same boat as most manufacturers today.
The Browning Cyber cam does nothing for me really, in fact I've only shot one once so cannot readily comment heavily on them other than stifle a yawn.
The Hoyt cams and dual-track idler are actually twin cams, you just don't know it!<img src=icon_smile_shock.gif border=0 align=middle> Anytime you have a string or cable that is CONNECTED to a wheel or cam in any way, it must be counted as a "power source" and is not a true solocam because that postion is being "actuated" due to a stop/start string /cable position. If it runs up and AROUND the wheel and rests on it instead of actuating it with the ending loop on the post, then it is deemed an "idler", and therefore will be a true "conventional solocam" because it is not doing anything and is not a "stop" for a string or cable, regardless of whether the cam does the actual work or not. Technically I guess we can now call them a "hybrid", also. Don't feel bad, Diamond and Alpine had them, too.
As someone said, "if they keep on upgrading the solos, they will re-invent the twin cam". They are definately heading in that direction, my friend!
As stated, it really doesn't matter to me what you want to shoot, as long as you're comfortable shooting it. But many techs and designers and Pros concur with me, and I suspect a "turning of the trend" as more people figure these things out. <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle> Good shooting, Pinwheel 12
09-03-2002, 03:27 PM
#40
Fork Horn
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: pecatonica il USA
Posts: 115
RE: Merlin Bows...Don't overlook them!
Thanks everbody, You all have convinced me to buy a merlin max2000. The bk2 is on ebay and doin well, so I am going to order through Mr.Pinwheel in the next day or two. One big problem. what color? If I go with silver, will a black rest look tacky? Also are the strings any good on the merlins? How do they compare to winners choice or zebra strings?