Bowtech -or- Matthews?
 

I've got a grand and wanna spend it on either of the following two:

1) Matthews black max 2

-or-

Bowtech black night 2

Both are pretty competitive in the speed department and that's my main selling point. I'm new to the whole scene so would appreciate any feedback on either of those two bows. If you had to choose, which one would you and why? Among other things, I know I can get the Matthews for about 700 but am not too sure about pricing on the Bowtech. The other things I'd like to know about are things like reliability or supremecy of one bow over the other. I know this might be a loaded question but I'm really just beginning to figure out what's what and what I want. Again, any help would be appreciated. TIA

RE: Bowtech -or- Matthews?
 

First, speed isn't everything! Don't buy a bow just because it is fast as it usually won't be as pleasureable to shoot or as forgiving. With that said, out of the two, the BK II is more forgiving while also being faster! When I say more forgiving, you have to remember that these are both bows built for nothing but speed and will lack in the other aspects that should be looked at, such as smooth drawing, forgiving, quiet, shock-free, ect..

RE: Bowtech -or- Matthews?
 

I am also looking for a new bow and want to go with either a BowTech or Mathews.

I am leaning towards the BowTech Mightymite VFT. I do most of my hunting from treestands and it is short axel to axel (30 1/2"), light weight (under 4lbs), a forgiving brace height (7 5/8"), and relatively fast at 318 fps. My buddy has one and it is super quiet as well. The Defender VFT has also caught my eye.

Anyone have any thoughts on these two bows?

. . . Rob

RE: Bowtech -or- Matthews?
 

Neither.
Pick one of these 2:
Bowtech Allegiance
Mathews Switchback

RE: Bowtech -or- Matthews?
 

Take the above advice very seriously. I'm a big a speed freak as anyone, and I have fun shooting fast bows, but if ultimate accuracy is your goal I would opt for a milder set up. The speed you might give up will only be noticed on a chronograph. I have a BK2, and have shot a Black Max on many occasions and they have a way of convincing you that shooting shooting short brace height bows is easy. Sometimes I'm shooting nocks off at 30 yards consistently at 350+ fps but the next day I'm lucky to have pie plate size groups. Everything about your form as to be perfectly consistent from shot to shot and day to day and even then even the best shots (a group into which I do not fall) will get fliers.

All the speed you could ever need can be had in forgiving, plesant to shoot configurations from several manuf. Of the ones you've mentioned I would say look at the Liberty by Bowtech or the Outback by Mathews. I've shot both and they are smooth, recoil free, quiet and forgiving to shoot. There are several other manuf who make bows that will fall into this category as well. I would shoot several and prioritize smoothness, noise level, and overall comfort of shooting over speed. For me the bow that fit that bill was the Bowtech Liberty.

But, I still love to pull out the BK2 and sling a few downrange at 350+ fps every now and then.;)

RE: Bowtech -or- Matthews?
 

Thanks but why for each of the two you suggested?

500fps... the two you mention are about how quick? Also you say that sometimes you can shoot off knocks from 30yds at 350fps but the next day it's not the same story anymore. Wouldn't this be a form or conditions consistency problem and not a bow consistency problem? If you can make a bow perform like that one day, it should still perform like that the next day unless you dropped the sucker or are shooting in the wind/rain right? I humbly ask yours and all of yours' replies.

RE: Bowtech -or- Matthews?
 

The Allegiance has a brace height of 7" and the Liberty is 7.5". Why do you recommend these two? The Mightymite seems to be more forgiving than the Allegiance and is faster (318fps) than the Liberty (304fps) with about the same brace height (7 5/8").

Here are the stats for BowTech http://www.bowtecharchery.com/QRG_2005_scn.pdf

. . . Rob

RE: Bowtech -or- Matthews?
 

You said that speed was a motivating factor. Each of those two bows will provide the high end of the speed spectrum for each company respectively, while providing a stable, forgiving, shootable platform.

RE: Bowtech -or- Matthews?
 

Does this necessarily mean that the two bows I originally introduced as standing options are unstable, not forgiving, and unshootable to such a high degree?

500fps said he can shoot off knocks at 30 with his BM2 on a good day. Could a bow with a less than desireable mix of characteristics do that?

Bear with me as I'm learning from you guys.

RE: Bowtech -or- Matthews?
 

"Does this necessarily mean that the two bows I originally introduced as standing options are unstable, not forgiving, and unshootable to such a high degree?"

For most archers, yes.

RE: Bowtech -or- Matthews?
 

Want accuracy, forgivness, and an extremely quiet bow??? Hoyt Ultra Tec... :D The 3D and F.I.T.A. champions can't be wrong... ;)

RE: Bowtech -or- Matthews?
 

I don't want to speak for 500fps, but I think I know what he meant. To answer your question, you're exactly right: the bow will stay the same from day to day, and yes -- it is a consistency problem. The difference is the degree of consistency. What 500 was meaning is that slight variations in form on a bow this "critical" will result in the differences he noted. The same differences in form with the more moderate brace heights on models such as the Outback or the Liberty would result in far less "plate-sized groups."

RE: Bowtech -or- Matthews?
 

dohcrxl, if you are buying your first bow or are relatively new to bowhunting I am gonna state flat out that buying a Bowtech Black Knight or Matthews Black Max is just wrong! Figure in the brace height and extra recoil you are going to get from these 2 speed bows......makes them 2 tough to handle bows. Speed ain't gonna kill, accuracy will.

RE: Bowtech -or- Matthews?
 

Between the two you mentiioned, I would choose the Bowtech Black Knight 2. If you want maximum speed, then it is the bow that has it.;)

That said, none of those responding (including me) have any idea of your level of experience with a bow. The low brace speed bows are less forgiving of form breaks, or any "nervousness" in your shooting, yet with their aggressive force draw curves, no valley, and low brace, they tend to magnify anything less than perfect form. Can they be shot accurately? Absoutely, but there is also much more potential for disappointing days, frustration, and lack of confidence. If you are a rock solid shooter, then you don't have to worry about that.:D

All that said, one of the best shooters I've owned was a 2001 Bowtech Pro 38 Dual Cam. Fast? Yes, but very stable too with nearly 7" brace height (with the grip removed). I currently have a Patriot Dually that is also very fast, and has a 7 5/8 brace height. They also made the Pro 40 Dually, which was considered to be even more forgiving, and still quite fast. I've owned a couple of Mathews bows, and I'd have to say that I would much rather have an LX if I wanted a fast Mathews than the BM 2. The new Switchback looks like a much more shooter friendly bow than the Max also. JMHO, FWIW.:) The Darton Maverick Extreme and the Hoyt Supertec are two other nice speed bows.

RE: Bowtech -or- Matthews?
 

I would go so far as to say speed is the least important aspect of success to the average hunter who is "new to the whole scene ". In my opinion, concentrating on speed can be the downfall to a potentially good bowhunter. You will be far better served at the beginning, to concentrate on building the most forgiving arrow for the bow you choose, finding a bow that you can "hold" rock solid, one with a generous brace height and one that is not too short or with too much reflex.

Outside of 3-D shooters, professional archers and the most successful hunters in the world pay little attention to speed. Why should non-professionals?

RE: Bowtech -or- Matthews?
 

Yes, I would agree. Bows with short brace heights, extreme reflexed risers and very stiff/harsh drawing cams are not forgiving enough for most shooters to shoot accuractely on a regular basis.

The suggestions of the Mathews Switchback or Outback and/or Bowtech's new Allegiance or Patriot single cam would be better options overall. All of them offer slightly more forgiving design characteristics (brace height, riser geometry, draw cycle) without sacrificing much to the other two you mentioned in terms of speed.

If speed turns out not to be as important to you as you may have originally thought then start looking at the Freedom cam bows from Bowtech. The Liberty and Justice are in the mid-range in terms of speed and yet offer a very smooth draw cycle and decent brace heights which make them a pure pleasure to shoot. I would even suggest the Pro 40 Freedom if a slightly longer axle to axle length doesn't bother you.

Hope this helps.

RE: Bowtech -or- Matthews?
 

MQ1shooter is exactly on, in what I was trying to say. The BK2 and BM require near perfect form every time to shoot well consistently, and I don't have perfect form. I can also develope the fun habit of drive by punching when shooting these fast bows sometimes. The shot is such an explosive release of energy that I beging to anticipate the shot, and when the pin swings by my spot.....I punch the trigger.

This doesn't happen all the time, or even much of the time, but it happens enough that I don't want to risk it if I'm going to have a deer in front of me.
And yes....these are all MY flaws...not the bows, but the short brace height, reflexed riser greatly exaggerates it.

I will say this though, it is not as much of a problem now that the BK2 is on the longer Pro riser platform as opposed to the highly reflexed riser of the 2000-2002 models.

It is just far more enjoyable to me for eveyday shooting to pick up my Liberty, feel that silky smooth rollover to full draw, settle in to that 80% let-off and rock solid back wall, and squeeze off a shot that is so recoil free, it makes me wonder if the bow even shot at all. I"m getting a whisper quiet 290 fps out of it which is plenty for any application.

Though I've not shot it yet, I think the Mathews Switchback would be in the same category; an excellent bow with forgiving, recoil free shooting.

One thing to think about is Bowtech's new Equalizer cam system. I haven't shot it enough to give a completley informed opinion, but my initial impressions are ....WOW!

It has a little stiffer draw on the front end, but a very smooth transition to full draw with incredible speed given the low level of recoil and noise that it produces.

The Defender is the model I got to try out with the Equalizer cam and it is shooting over 300 fps at a 28" draw IBO. Very few bows that I know of will do this and still give you the forgiving brace height, low recoil and low noise that the Defender provides. They have 2 other models that are even faster in the Old Glory and Allegiance that will still offer the same forgiving shooting characteristics but with the little extra kick that you might be looking for.

RE: Bowtech -or- Matthews?
 

What do you want a bow to do and what is your intended purpose for having it?

RE: Bowtech -or- Matthews?
 

After reading all these quality replies, I don't need a Lingenfelter vette but would also like to be able to hang with a stock Viper gts. Translation = 300fps minimum. At the same time, I'd like to be able to hold my own at the range and on the stand with regard to consistency and accuracy. I realize now that being able to drive 350fps into the wrong spot only means I spent a grand just to piss myself off.

So with the BM2 and BK2 having short brace heights, they are out of the question in fitting the above description of my expectations correct? All these suggested bows and their pros and cons are making my head spin. Just once more, could you guys recategorize/ressugest only the bows that fit my revised expectations? Thanks everyone.

RE: Bowtech -or- Matthews?
 

Of course not.........you need a Hennessy VENOM!! :)

RE: Bowtech -or- Matthews?
 

Sounds like yo need to "test drive" a few before you buy!;)

RE: Bowtech -or- Matthews?
 

I think that just about sums it all up. Shoot a speed bow and then shoot one of the others mentioned. Make sure you have an arm guard on. Speed is fun, but not the answer. I too shot the Liberty, Justice, Outback, and others before I ended up with my current selection. I would also advise you look at a bow in the 36"-38" axle to axle range. For newer archers, they can help build a more consistant form, while providing a very stable shooting platform. All bows can be shot accurately, it really is the dummy behind the bow that makes all the mistakes. Just give yourself the best chance from the start and pick a smooth, forgiving setup and you will enjoy it much more. It is much more fun to drill the X or the deer at 280 fps than to sling for 8's all day and shoot a pie-plate group.
Always have fun,
JMAC

RE: Bowtech -or- Matthews?
 

If you are not in a hurry wait until after the Archery show in January. Let everyone else spend their money on the new bows first, then you will get feedback on the new designs for 05. If you don't like what you see, you may find a new 04 model that is reduced in price from a dealer.

RE: Bowtech -or- Matthews?
 

If you want something with decent speed and more forgiving shooting characteristics then one of those three criteria I mentioned earlier (brace height, draw cycle, riser geometry) should be somewhat more forgiving. For example, take a look at the Bowtech Patriot Single Cam. You are still talking IBO speeds in excess of 320 fps with a 7 inch or better brace height. The riser is still relatively heavily reflexed and the cam is not as smooth to draw as their Freedom cam but the slightly larger brace height should add some to the forgiveness level of the bow.

Same thing goes for the Mathews Outback (while not looking at the axle to axle length). The Outback has a slightly larger brace height to add some forgiveness though it also has a moderately reflexed riser and a relatively stiff drawing cam.

My suggestion would be to look at bows with brace heights over 7 inches and IBO speeds over 310 fps. Axle to axle length should be at least 34 inches in order for to get some forgiveness from that aspect of the bow's design....though the actual riser/limb configuration also play some part in it.

Hope this helps.

RE: Bowtech -or- Matthews?
 

Go to the local archery pro shop and shoot several different bows. The bows that you mentioned, did a friend or relative suggest these. Just because someone tells you this bow or that bow is the hot ticket, doesn't mean it will be for you. Shoot a bunch, shoot em all, buy one that YOU are comfortable with.

RE: Bowtech -or- Matthews?
 

Good advice from many, best thing is to go and shoot MANY brands of bows yourself, then choose. Many times one gets caught up in the hype (and sometimes BS) and chooses simply due to "advertised ratings", or ads, or simply brand name, and this is the biggest mistake anyone could make.

Why?

There is not a bow made on the planet that will fit EVERYONE perfectly due to their individual statures and form posture, that is why different manufactuers build different geometries and different people like different bows. To say one bow that is made out of the same 6061 riser material, same gordon glass limbs, same eccentric design and force draw curve, same bearings, axles, strings, and same film dip or anodize is better than another of the same build materials is ludicrous from a material/build standpoint. Only when you see higher grade materials being used in either the riser or limbs, or tighter tolerances in the build due to the production and quality control moving at a slower and more deliberate and precise pace, can you say "hey, that may be a better bow". Other than that it is simply based on personal preference to the geometry of the overall design.

Every once in awhile, you get the higher-grade materials and exacting craftsmanship and quality control all rolled into one package. It isn't often, but if you look hard enough you'll find there are a few GREAT bows out there. (but only a few) The rest are usually GOOD, and yes, there are a few made who I would say are only "FAIR".


Try them ALL, (or at least as many as possible) THEN decide.;) Good shooting!

Pinwheel 12

RE: Bowtech -or- Matthews?
 

Another thing I didn't see mentioned was if you're going to hunt with this bow. If you are, the BK II and the mathews you mentioned have very short brace heights, whichi n turn most likely will translate into arm slap if you have your bulky hunting clothes on. This will effect accuracy as well.

Everyone is giving sound advice. Look for a milder shooting bow that has medium ATA and a generous Brace. You'll be a lot happier in the long run and will shoot it extremely accurate in just about any environment.

Also, I'd just like to point out that you definitely seem to be open minded and willing to learn. Not taking offense to what is being suggested to you. I commend you on that. Seems lately there are a lot of people on this board, and others who ask a question, then flame everyones response. Go figure:D

RE: Bowtech -or- Matthews?
 

Accuracy kills, speed thrills.

A slow bulls-eye is better than a fast miss.

RE: Bowtech -or- Matthews?
 

Why? It sounds as though you've been mislead somewhere. Can you explain to us why exactly your stuck on speed (300fps minimum)?

RE: Bowtech -or- Matthews?
 

Amen bowfanatic. I was wondering the same. At those speeds, if a fixed broadhead is used. I don't think that most could shoot them without some type of plaining problem. If a flat shooting bow is what you want, let me save you some time. I shoot ALOT of 3-D and thought that I needed 300 fps or higher to remain competitive. I did a test switching from 423 grain arrows to 350 grain arrows. I broke the 300 fps barrier and my groups opened up slightly. Using my sight settings my 20 yard group raised. I was pleased thinking that I would shoot flatter. I adjusted my sight for 20 to hit right on. To my amazement. All of the pins were hitting right on. I was astonished that up to 50 yards there was no noticeable change in point of impact to 50 yards from 285 fps to 300 fps. The only difference was that the lighter arrows traveling faster speeds were not as pinpoint accurate. I opted for the heavier set-up and went on to take a state title
last year along with a turkey and a bull elk. I just got my new bow for this year and opted for a longer brace heighth(8.25 in.) and am using 405 grain arrow. This is proving to be more accuate yet as my indoor 3-D and NFAA scores have come up since I have changed set-ups. Accuracy is the name of the game. I would much rather have a slow arow in the boiler room than a fast arrow in the shoulder blade. The new bow is shooting 283 fps. just right for me.............

RE: Bowtech -or- Matthews?
 

yes you are new to the bow world, heres what you do, forget speed it plays a role but dont buy the bow because it says
350FPS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! go to your pro shop and shoot everybow they have, when you shoot the one that you feel a connection with check it out, see what they have to say do some research, or vice versa look up hoyt, mathews, bowtech, those 3 seem to dominate the bow world, check them out shoot them. you will know what i mean by feeling a connection with the bow

RE: Bowtech -or- Matthews?
 

Also check out huntersfriend.com. On that sight there is the title at the left that says bow comparison. You can try sorting by speed and forgiveness rating. You can find the crosses that will give you what you want. When you find ones that match speed and forgiveness, this could give you a starting point for your search. Good luck.