Does Kinetic Energy = Penetration?

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08-20-2002, 06:20 PM

#111

BOWFANATIC

Nontypical Buck

Join Date: Feb 2003

Location: Wisconsin

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RE: Does Kinetic Energy = Penetration?

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quotequote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Personally, I think the whole light arrow/speed thing falls into the category of trying to 'keep fixing it until it breaks'. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Well here is a short list of the names of some of those who are "fixing it until it breaks"

Myles Keller
The Primos Crew
Bob Foulkrod and
Ted Nugent

Some of the best bowhunters around are shooting light arrow setups are we to conclude that all of these obviously seasoned veterans are "fixing it until it breaks". Wow that is some powerful smack talk when you start down talking the choices of the men that are known as some of the world's finest bowhunters. One could even assume that you think you know more about the sport than they do.

PS Ted Nugent is only pulling 53 lbs and he is blowing through everything he shoots at left and right(with carbons).

<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Well , I'll start at the top!

In my latest bowhunting video , Myles Keller is shooting alluminum arrows with 125gn magnus stingers.

The Primos crew , I cant be certain , but I bet if anyone did some research , we'd find your statement to be less than 100% correct.

Bob Foulkrod , I've also got videos of him shooting alluminums.

Ted Nugent , shoots lighter arrows to gain some speed for shooting such low poundage in todays standards.

So what exactly was your point?

"Nocked,cocked & ready to rock"

08-21-2002, 07:07 AM

#112

BobCo19-65

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RE: Does Kinetic Energy = Penetration?

TFOX,

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quotequote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Arthur and Bobco,you may be better served with a heavy aluminum because as Arthur has stated before,carbon tolerances aren,t very good at 30"+.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

You are very correct in this assumption. It is also very hard to just find a carbon that is 33" long. I believe that the 3-d select that I used last year were 32", and I remember that I had to move the rest back a little. Like I have always said, I like to have the arrow past my knuckles by about 1/2", and I couldn't do that with the selects.

Maybe I'll give the kinetic II a try next year. But, I'll have to be very very careful practicing with them <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle> At that price, I wouldn't want to hit one in the target.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> I havn't seen 1 person say they have had succes with expandables and 600 gr arrows.I'm sure that their will be 1 now but that would be the first I have heard of.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Well here I am. I have tried mechanical about 6 or 7 years ago for a season. I took two deer with them. They were the rockethead with some sort of chisel point on them. Both shots were pass through double lung hits, however in both cases, I had broken blades on them. They worked fine, I got both deer no problems. But, I really didn't like seeing that the blades were broken (I know maybe its a mental thing), but as people have stated earlier, you must have faith and confidence in your setup. Another reason that I didn't like using them is because of the amount of practice that I do with my hunting setup. I just couldn't afford using the expandables to practice with. I am from the old school I guess when it comes to practice, I practice with my exact hunting setup, arrows, and broadheads included. I won't even practice with the practice blades that some companies sell. With my magnus broadheads, I just sharpen them up before I hunt right on the arrow, they are extremely tough. Another reason why I shy away from carbons is pulling them out of a 3-d target. Man alive, last year, I used to have to take the target down, lay it flat, put a foot on it and pull the carbons out. It really gets to be a pain.

Great posts TFOX!

08-21-2002, 07:12 AM

#113

Black Frog

Fork Horn

Join Date: Feb 2003

Location: Kenosha, Wi USA

Posts: 499

RE: Does Kinetic Energy = Penetration?

Here's Norb Mullaney's take on this subject:

08-21-2002, 07:34 AM

#114

Arthur P

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Join Date: Feb 2003

Posts: 9,175

RE: Does Kinetic Energy = Penetration?

Well, who am I to argue with The Man?

Thank goodness my heavy arrows carry more KE out of my bow than light arrows do. <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

08-21-2002, 07:45 AM

#115

silentassassin

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Location: Memphis TN USA

Posts: 3,445

RE: Does Kinetic Energy = Penetration?

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quotequote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> Well , I'll start at the top!

In my latest bowhunting video , Myles Keller is shooting alluminum arrows with 125gn magnus stingers.

The Primos crew , I cant be certain , but I bet if anyone did some research , we'd find your statement to be less than 100% correct.

Bob Foulkrod , I've also got videos of him shooting alluminums
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Well I got my informataion from their personal websites or emails
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Ted's Spirit of the Wild Ultimate Adventure Gear

Archery-
Bow: Non-Typical XL by Renegade Archery co-designed by Ted & Bill
Weisner, www.renegadebows.com
draw length - 29", draw weight - 53#, 65% let-off, one cam, right-handed, Mossy Oak breakup camouflage.
Sims Vibration Laboratories Limb Savers, String Leeches silencers, Enhancer stabilizer, www.limbsaver.com
insulated gripwrap, quiver insert, virgin teflon cableguard, BoDoodle, Golden Key Futura & Savage arrow rests
Feathers: hard helical 5" Gateway leftwing shield cut feathers
Arrows: 30" GameTracker Carbon Express 300, GodlTip 7595, NitroStinger
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
__________________________________________________ ___________________

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Bow Hunting
Bow Golden Eagle Bow - Bob Foulkrod Signature bow (new in Jan 2001)
w/ SVL - Limb Saver
Broadhead Satellite Titan
Arrows Carbon Express - Preditor Select
Clothing Camo: Realtree - x-tra Brown, Advantage, Timber
Footwear: LaCrosse Gore-Tex

<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Myles Keller I emailed and probably recieved an email back from his service but:
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>I believe he is still using ACC's w/ Rocket Broadheads.
Hopes this helps
Thanks
Missy
Robinson Labs
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>What is Will's bow set up?

Will uses the Team Primos bow by PSE, a Trophy Taker rest, PSE sights and bow accessories, limb saver, ACC 3-49 or 3-60 arrows, and Rocky Titanium 125 broadheads.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

My point is that several of the experts from the industry do not agree. That's it. Just that his point of view was in the minority and thought by many of the veterans to be wrong. So he could stop trying to force feed that crap to those of us that know better.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Ted Nugent , shoots lighter arrows to gain some speed for shooting such low poundage in todays standards <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Oh really, with low pundage and light arrows he must be getting some poor pnentration. Oh wait, maybe the speed is what makes the difference. But I thought heavy arrows penetrated better no matter what the speed. By the arguments made here heavy arrows should penetrate better than light ones regardless of the speed so why would he need to shoot faster?

PS I have watched 2 of Teds shows in the last week and was shooting his Bowtech set at 53lbs one he had a complete pass through with a carbon and the other with a 2213 that was dipped from one end to the other. So I would say your speed theory just went out the window.

Protect your hunting rights, "Spay or neuter a liberal."

08-21-2002, 08:44 AM

#116

Straightarrow

Join Date: Feb 2003

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Posts: 2,413

RE: Does Kinetic Energy = Penetration?

Very good article!

Even so, we will all wonder how penetration is affected by live, lubricated flesh when using a razor sharp broadhead.

It is my gut feeling that, sharpness of the broadhead may play the major role in penetration through live flesh. There may be little or no friction created by the shaft and the key may be reducing friction on the broadhead. This would be best accomplished by having fewer blades and sharper ones, along with a cut-to-tip style.

It seems to me that this kinetic energy stuff is most important, only when you miss. The very best advise may be to spend less time worrying about the weight of your arrow and more time making sure you can hit what you're aiming at and to use only the very sharpest of broadheads.

08-21-2002, 08:56 AM

#117

buckskin73

Join Date: Feb 2003

Location: Homer LA USA

Posts: 97

RE: Does Kinetic Energy = Penetration?

Black Frog.....YOU DA MAN!!!!! That was awesome. Thanks for finding that article.

I don't want to say I told you so but..... WELL YOU KNOW!!! LOL

Anyway, dimensional analysis is way to indepth to explain here and I will not even attempt it. I have only used this technique a couple of times in applied situations. But the point is that KE, mathematically speaking, is the only quantity that can relate to penetration.

I love this stuff!!!!

08-21-2002, 09:23 AM

#118

BobCo19-65

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RE: Does Kinetic Energy = Penetration?

Straightarrow, I know what you are saying and I agree that practice and shot placement is so critical. However would you also agree that stuff happens on a live animals. Maybe it takes a step at the point of no return on when you release, maybe the wind is blowing and swaying the tree you are in and you don't even know it, maybe an arrow hits a tiny branch that is unseen from your stand. No matter what, there is no excuse for not preparing yourself for the hunt. And using the best setup with the most KE you can get out of your bow should not be used as an excuse not to practice because you can blow through anything. But uncontrolable stuff does happen, when you are not shooting at an indoor range using stationary targets.

08-21-2002, 09:43 AM

#119

WV Hunter

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RE: Does Kinetic Energy = Penetration?

Here's what I said in my post on the first page. Maybe I AM nuts, but this is what I think.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quotequote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>

One theory I've always had, and whether or not it is any good(LOL), is that if you have adequate KE, on a shot into a live animal, the shaft size really doesn't mattter...you have a 1"+ broadhead making a hole through that animal...the shaft just follows the head through the hole...it doesn't really act like a target and slow down by friction. (Of course...if you dead center the shoulder then it would obviously be different than a behind the shoulder all flesh hit.) But you get my point.
Penetration...IMO is based on KE, but ALSO on broadhead performance...if you have a good head, that can drive through flesh and bone, (even on a bad hit), you will get good penetration. In fact, I think even if you have marginal KE with a really good head, you will probably equal or outperform a setup with alot of KE, and a poor head. I've been shooting Magnus 2 blade 125's and have had some incredible penetration out of my last couple bows, and none of them is a speed demon by any means(240 at max). I personally believe it is because of the head. I think alot of traditional archers realize the way these type of heads work, and that is why they use them. Even with low KE, you can still have great success. That is my humble opinion, and maybe I'm nuts...but it works for me <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

This has been an interesting thread for sure. I think (as said)you can use whatever works for you, and be succesful, but....I think the broadhead does have alot to do with penetration. The cut on impact style (ie:magnus or others) IMO adds to the effectiveness that the KE has. (Obviously out of a well tuned bow.)
For the Ted Nugent fans...IMO that is why he gets pass throughs on almost all his shots, even with lower poundage(and KE). I doubt if he would have as good results with a mechanical head, or another type of fixed head...but who knows for sure.

Slo-bo said earlier...." In my opinion, in most cases, once you have reached a certain speed/KE, it becomes somewhat of a mute point, it's more a matter of how deep in the ground the arrow will stick on the other side of a pass-through shot"

I agree!

Good Thread <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

08-21-2002, 10:32 AM

#120

Arthur P

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Join Date: Feb 2003

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RE: Does Kinetic Energy = Penetration?

TFOX, going back to the idea of heavy carbon arrows...

I've done this before and had iffy results with the other carbons I've tried it on, but I weighted a half dozen of these new Carbonaeros that I got recently with aquarium tubing. I didn't do any tuning, just shot with the same setup as I shot with the 2315's. Arrows were flying flatter than the 2315's with a little tail kick, and I did have to adjust my gap system, but they were blowing thru the pressed fiberboard target butts at our range. I was even picking my arrows up off the ground behind the target at 60 yards.

That's something they did not do without the added weight, and also something the 2315's couldn't do. With results like that, I really hate to think what they'll do when I get the bow tuned to them. It's going to confine me to shooting our bag targets, for sure.

No, I haven't weighed the things to see how much weight I added (anyone know how much 30" of clear aquarium tubing would weigh?).

My opinion is that you can't make a direct correlation on how an arrow will penetrate in an animal by shooting into target materials (the one misgiving I have about Mullaney's methodology), but if I can get good arrow flight and broadhead accuracy with these weighted arrows, I'll use them this season to find out how they do.

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