About Heavy Arrows?
12-13-2004, 03:57 PM
#1
Typical Buck
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 590
About Heavy Arrows?
This post is kind a a multipart question, looking to tap some of you bow wizards for information, since I'm really no kind of a bow technician. I hope some of you will stick with this long post and help me out. Thanks in advance.
Since I began bowhunting four years ago, I have had a problem with broadhead flight. For the whole four years, I have shot ICS Beman Hunters topped with 100 grain broadheads, on a Matthews MQ-32 bow at 55 pound draw weight with 30 inch draw length. I have switched broadheads nearly every season, first I shot NAP T-heads, then Muzzy 3-blades, and last year the G5 B-52 (two-blade cut-on-contact).
Now, I lean heavily on my local bowshop, and have worked with two different shops to help me through the tuning process. We all agree that I am tuned and shooting bullet holes on paper.
The problem is that when I shoot my broadheads for groups, each broadhead/arrow combo tends to fly to its own unique spot. I shoot 15 or 21-shot groups with each arrow, taking several weeks in the process, and recording each hit on graph paper. I'll have 6 different arrows set up with broadheads, and if I'm lucky 3 of the 6 arrows will group together, then the other 3 arrows tend to fly to their own unique spots 1-4" off mark. Mind you, most individual arrows group well with themselves, giving me 3-5" groups at 20 yards in the 15 or 21 shot groups. I'd get those same sized groups with field points. (I'm a competent, but not astonishing, bow shot.)
Obviously, I would rather have all my arrows striking the same point. As it is, I go into a bow season with my 3 arrows that hit right on. Then, if I ever get into a case where I'm launching, say, the fourth arrow in line, I have to adjust my sights ever so slightly to compensate for the different center strike on that arrow, and so on.
I'd like to change this case, and here's my theory. I think that maybe the problem is ICS Beman shafts and their spine tolerance. If a set of arrows has inconsistent spines, would that account for my problem?
My proposed solution is to go to a heavier arrow. I know that traditional bowmen typically have no heartaches with arrow/broadhead tuning, right? They typically are shooting heavy, slow arrows, and we modern hotrods are shooting light, fast arrows. Shouldn't switching to a heavier arrow help to alleviate my problem? I'm thinking of going to about a 500 grain setup, from my current setup of 440 grains. I'm now getting 238 fps at 440 grains, so I should get about 225 fps by bumping up my arrow weight 60 grains. Also, I'm going to switch shafts, to either a Carbon Tech or an Easton that are a bit heavier than the Bemans. I have seen an article fairly recently on the importance of spine consistency and it listed the Carbon Techs as rating very well. Interestingly, although they listed spine tests for several popular shafts, they were silent on ICS Bemans.
To reiterate, my main questions are:
1) Could inconsistent spines cause the problem I've outlined?
2) Wouldn't heavier arrows tend to smooth out this problem?
3) What are the ramifications of shooting heavy arrows? I'm looking at 500+ grains on a
55 pound draw.
4) Could it be that the situation I've described is more common than most people know?
How many people go to the lengths I've described to be sure they don't have this
problem? My first year at bowhunting, I didn't do this, and just rationalized the fact that
my broadhead groups tended to be about 1 1/2 to 2 times my fieldpoint groups.
Again, thanks for bearing with me, and I'll check in tomorrow or the next day to see what you all have to say.
Since I began bowhunting four years ago, I have had a problem with broadhead flight. For the whole four years, I have shot ICS Beman Hunters topped with 100 grain broadheads, on a Matthews MQ-32 bow at 55 pound draw weight with 30 inch draw length. I have switched broadheads nearly every season, first I shot NAP T-heads, then Muzzy 3-blades, and last year the G5 B-52 (two-blade cut-on-contact).
Now, I lean heavily on my local bowshop, and have worked with two different shops to help me through the tuning process. We all agree that I am tuned and shooting bullet holes on paper.
The problem is that when I shoot my broadheads for groups, each broadhead/arrow combo tends to fly to its own unique spot. I shoot 15 or 21-shot groups with each arrow, taking several weeks in the process, and recording each hit on graph paper. I'll have 6 different arrows set up with broadheads, and if I'm lucky 3 of the 6 arrows will group together, then the other 3 arrows tend to fly to their own unique spots 1-4" off mark. Mind you, most individual arrows group well with themselves, giving me 3-5" groups at 20 yards in the 15 or 21 shot groups. I'd get those same sized groups with field points. (I'm a competent, but not astonishing, bow shot.)
Obviously, I would rather have all my arrows striking the same point. As it is, I go into a bow season with my 3 arrows that hit right on. Then, if I ever get into a case where I'm launching, say, the fourth arrow in line, I have to adjust my sights ever so slightly to compensate for the different center strike on that arrow, and so on.
I'd like to change this case, and here's my theory. I think that maybe the problem is ICS Beman shafts and their spine tolerance. If a set of arrows has inconsistent spines, would that account for my problem?
My proposed solution is to go to a heavier arrow. I know that traditional bowmen typically have no heartaches with arrow/broadhead tuning, right? They typically are shooting heavy, slow arrows, and we modern hotrods are shooting light, fast arrows. Shouldn't switching to a heavier arrow help to alleviate my problem? I'm thinking of going to about a 500 grain setup, from my current setup of 440 grains. I'm now getting 238 fps at 440 grains, so I should get about 225 fps by bumping up my arrow weight 60 grains. Also, I'm going to switch shafts, to either a Carbon Tech or an Easton that are a bit heavier than the Bemans. I have seen an article fairly recently on the importance of spine consistency and it listed the Carbon Techs as rating very well. Interestingly, although they listed spine tests for several popular shafts, they were silent on ICS Bemans.
To reiterate, my main questions are:
1) Could inconsistent spines cause the problem I've outlined?
2) Wouldn't heavier arrows tend to smooth out this problem?
3) What are the ramifications of shooting heavy arrows? I'm looking at 500+ grains on a
55 pound draw.
4) Could it be that the situation I've described is more common than most people know?
How many people go to the lengths I've described to be sure they don't have this
problem? My first year at bowhunting, I didn't do this, and just rationalized the fact that
my broadhead groups tended to be about 1 1/2 to 2 times my fieldpoint groups.
Again, thanks for bearing with me, and I'll check in tomorrow or the next day to see what you all have to say.
12-13-2004, 04:07 PM
#2
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location:
Posts: 2,994
RE: About Heavy Arrows?
1) Could inconsistent spines cause the problem I've outlined?
2) Wouldn't heavier arrows tend to smooth out this problem?
Perhaps a tad, but personally I would rather remedy the issue than try a band-aid.
3) What are the ramifications of shooting heavy arrows? I'm looking at 500+ grains on a 55 pound draw.
4) Could it be that the situation I've described is more common than most people know?
12-13-2004, 04:34 PM
#3
Fork Horn
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Brockport NY
Posts: 211
RE: About Heavy Arrows?
What Range said. Something you might try that will actually show you how funky carbons can be is after you shoot an arrow rotate the nock and shoot it again ,I've had arrows ( mostly with broadheads) come right in just by re indexing nocks.
12-13-2004, 11:58 PM
#4
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Oakland Md. USA
Posts: 337
RE: About Heavy Arrows?
Rangeball said it well. Yes, this is a common problem and has been for
many years. I shoot ACC's and they group very well for me. There are
some thing's that can be done to help like turning nocks to get arrow
groups tighter.
many years. I shoot ACC's and they group very well for me. There are
some thing's that can be done to help like turning nocks to get arrow
groups tighter.
12-14-2004, 02:03 AM
#5
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 3,903
RE: About Heavy Arrows?
Something you might try that will actually show you how funky carbons can be is after you shoot an arrow rotate the nock and shoot it again ,I've had arrows ( mostly with broadheads) come right in just by re indexing nocks.
Can anyone post a link to that thread?
12-14-2004, 06:31 AM
#7
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 2,358
RE: About Heavy Arrows?
Spine MIGHT be contributing, but I would think it only really would matter if you were borderline on spine.
I do feel its probably the arrows. Try the index of the nocks mentioned above, then try turning the inserts in the shaft. If nock or insert is out of alignment then you will get funky flight.
--Bob
I do feel its probably the arrows. Try the index of the nocks mentioned above, then try turning the inserts in the shaft. If nock or insert is out of alignment then you will get funky flight.
--Bob
12-14-2004, 07:08 AM
#8
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location:
Posts: 2,994
RE: About Heavy Arrows?
Now, I lean heavily on my local bowshop, and have worked with two different shops to help me through the tuning process. We all agree that I am tuned and shooting bullet holes on paper.
I'd like to add that turning your nocks will be tough to do unless you're shooting a drop away rest. Otherwise fletch contact can give you funky results as well...
12-14-2004, 09:17 AM
#10
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 9,175
RE: About Heavy Arrows?
IMO, inconsistent spine is a major issue with carbons and, like Bob H said, if you're on the high end of the shafts' spine class the problem is magnified. Also, carbons do lose some stiffness after they've been used some. That's why when you look at the chart for a carbon arrow and see you're within 5 pounds of needing the next size up, ALWAYS go to the next size up.
Then there is straightness. An arrow shaft with +/-.006 straightness simply does not shoot as accurately as an arrow with +/-.003 or better straightness. Of course, skill level plays a part there. I guess many people simply can't shoot good enough to see the difference between junk and premium arrows.
Inside diameters aren't very consistent with carbon arrows. Some inserts are very snug when you install them, some are loose and sloppy. The loose, sloppy ones can easily be installed crooked, and a crooked insert will make it nearly impossible to get broadheads to spin true. Same thing can happen on the nock end as well. A nock that isn't properly aligned with the shaft will cause the string to launch that arrow at an angle to the line of sight. If both nock AND insert are misaligned.... Hopeless.
Arrow speed... The faster the arrow is flying, the more any problems you have with your arrow will be magnified. Wind resistance for a subsonic projectile increases at the cube of the projectile's speed. So, with any misalignment in the broadhead will cause an arrow at 270 fps to plane far worse than that same problem in an arrow at 220 fps. More wind resistance against a misaligned surface will push that surface further off it's line of travel. Hope that makes sense.
So, a heavier arrow will fly slower and reduce the effects of those problems. But the real answer is to get consistent arrows to begin with. Aluminums and ACC's are far more consistent than any ICS type carbon arrow yet made.
Then there is the question of fletching size/type. Are you using enough fletch to properly control your broadheads? Larger fletching (steerage) at the tail end of the arrow can help counteract broadhead steerage (planing) at the front end. Also, switching from vanes to feathers and/or increasing the amount of helical/offset can create more tail end steerage and make the arrows shoot straighter. Not straight, just straighter.
The root cause(s) for the planing has to be addressed in order to completely cure the problem. After several years of struggling with carbons, and since I can't afford to use ACC's on a regular basis, what I decided to do is to continue using aluminum arrows. I also use the heavier, thick walled and more durable shafts than the light, beer can thin ones that get bent and dinged up so easy. Confining my hunting shots to 30 yards and less, trajectory is simply not an issue, and the weight of those arrows make the shot whisper quiet. Not to mention the additional force the heavier arrow has when the it makes contact.
Carbon arrows do have certain advantages, which is why I've tried so desperately to get them to work for me, and wasted hundreds of dollars in the process. I'm totally dissatisfied with the quality I've seen.
There is one carbon/glass composite arrow that I do like: Carbon Express Terminator Selects. I like the weight. I like the quality. If I'm not shooting aluminum - or wood - arrows, that's what is in my quiver.
Then there is straightness. An arrow shaft with +/-.006 straightness simply does not shoot as accurately as an arrow with +/-.003 or better straightness. Of course, skill level plays a part there. I guess many people simply can't shoot good enough to see the difference between junk and premium arrows.
Inside diameters aren't very consistent with carbon arrows. Some inserts are very snug when you install them, some are loose and sloppy. The loose, sloppy ones can easily be installed crooked, and a crooked insert will make it nearly impossible to get broadheads to spin true. Same thing can happen on the nock end as well. A nock that isn't properly aligned with the shaft will cause the string to launch that arrow at an angle to the line of sight. If both nock AND insert are misaligned.... Hopeless.
Arrow speed... The faster the arrow is flying, the more any problems you have with your arrow will be magnified. Wind resistance for a subsonic projectile increases at the cube of the projectile's speed. So, with any misalignment in the broadhead will cause an arrow at 270 fps to plane far worse than that same problem in an arrow at 220 fps. More wind resistance against a misaligned surface will push that surface further off it's line of travel. Hope that makes sense.
So, a heavier arrow will fly slower and reduce the effects of those problems. But the real answer is to get consistent arrows to begin with. Aluminums and ACC's are far more consistent than any ICS type carbon arrow yet made.
Then there is the question of fletching size/type. Are you using enough fletch to properly control your broadheads? Larger fletching (steerage) at the tail end of the arrow can help counteract broadhead steerage (planing) at the front end. Also, switching from vanes to feathers and/or increasing the amount of helical/offset can create more tail end steerage and make the arrows shoot straighter. Not straight, just straighter.
The root cause(s) for the planing has to be addressed in order to completely cure the problem. After several years of struggling with carbons, and since I can't afford to use ACC's on a regular basis, what I decided to do is to continue using aluminum arrows. I also use the heavier, thick walled and more durable shafts than the light, beer can thin ones that get bent and dinged up so easy. Confining my hunting shots to 30 yards and less, trajectory is simply not an issue, and the weight of those arrows make the shot whisper quiet. Not to mention the additional force the heavier arrow has when the it makes contact.
Carbon arrows do have certain advantages, which is why I've tried so desperately to get them to work for me, and wasted hundreds of dollars in the process. I'm totally dissatisfied with the quality I've seen.
There is one carbon/glass composite arrow that I do like: Carbon Express Terminator Selects. I like the weight. I like the quality. If I'm not shooting aluminum - or wood - arrows, that's what is in my quiver.