About Heavy Arrows?
 

This post is kind a a multipart question, looking to tap some of you bow wizards for information, since I'm really no kind of a bow technician. I hope some of you will stick with this long post and help me out. Thanks in advance.

Since I began bowhunting four years ago, I have had a problem with broadhead flight. For the whole four years, I have shot ICS Beman Hunters topped with 100 grain broadheads, on a Matthews MQ-32 bow at 55 pound draw weight with 30 inch draw length. I have switched broadheads nearly every season, first I shot NAP T-heads, then Muzzy 3-blades, and last year the G5 B-52 (two-blade cut-on-contact).

Now, I lean heavily on my local bowshop, and have worked with two different shops to help me through the tuning process. We all agree that I am tuned and shooting bullet holes on paper.

The problem is that when I shoot my broadheads for groups, each broadhead/arrow combo tends to fly to its own unique spot. I shoot 15 or 21-shot groups with each arrow, taking several weeks in the process, and recording each hit on graph paper. I'll have 6 different arrows set up with broadheads, and if I'm lucky 3 of the 6 arrows will group together, then the other 3 arrows tend to fly to their own unique spots 1-4" off mark. Mind you, most individual arrows group well with themselves, giving me 3-5" groups at 20 yards in the 15 or 21 shot groups. I'd get those same sized groups with field points. (I'm a competent, but not astonishing, bow shot.)

Obviously, I would rather have all my arrows striking the same point. As it is, I go into a bow season with my 3 arrows that hit right on. Then, if I ever get into a case where I'm launching, say, the fourth arrow in line, I have to adjust my sights ever so slightly to compensate for the different center strike on that arrow, and so on.

I'd like to change this case, and here's my theory. I think that maybe the problem is ICS Beman shafts and their spine tolerance. If a set of arrows has inconsistent spines, would that account for my problem?

My proposed solution is to go to a heavier arrow. I know that traditional bowmen typically have no heartaches with arrow/broadhead tuning, right? They typically are shooting heavy, slow arrows, and we modern hotrods are shooting light, fast arrows. Shouldn't switching to a heavier arrow help to alleviate my problem? I'm thinking of going to about a 500 grain setup, from my current setup of 440 grains. I'm now getting 238 fps at 440 grains, so I should get about 225 fps by bumping up my arrow weight 60 grains. Also, I'm going to switch shafts, to either a Carbon Tech or an Easton that are a bit heavier than the Bemans. I have seen an article fairly recently on the importance of spine consistency and it listed the Carbon Techs as rating very well. Interestingly, although they listed spine tests for several popular shafts, they were silent on ICS Bemans.

To reiterate, my main questions are:

1) Could inconsistent spines cause the problem I've outlined?
2) Wouldn't heavier arrows tend to smooth out this problem?
3) What are the ramifications of shooting heavy arrows? I'm looking at 500+ grains on a
55 pound draw.
4) Could it be that the situation I've described is more common than most people know?
How many people go to the lengths I've described to be sure they don't have this
problem? My first year at bowhunting, I didn't do this, and just rationalized the fact that
my broadhead groups tended to be about 1 1/2 to 2 times my fieldpoint groups.

Again, thanks for bearing with me, and I'll check in tomorrow or the next day to see what you all have to say.

RE: About Heavy Arrows?
 

Absolutely. Carbons are extremely susceptible to this issue, some from the get go, some over time. It's why I had no problem laying down the cabbage for ACCs.

P

Perhaps a tad, but personally I would rather remedy the issue than try a band-aid.

More KE and momentum, greatly reduced trajectory.

IMO matched weighted and properly spined arrows will show one their true shooting ability. For years I assumed I wasn't as good a shot, ACCs fixed this problem overnight. Thank you JeffB... :)

RE: About Heavy Arrows?
 

What Range said. Something you might try that will actually show you how funky carbons can be is after you shoot an arrow rotate the nock and shoot it again ,I've had arrows ( mostly with broadheads) come right in just by re indexing nocks.

RE: About Heavy Arrows?
 

Rangeball said it well. Yes, this is a common problem and has been for
many years. I shoot ACC's and they group very well for me. There are
some thing's that can be done to help like turning nocks to get arrow
groups tighter.

RE: About Heavy Arrows?
 

Bingo! If you try this with the arrows your shooting you'll notice a difference. Someone on here had a thread awhile back about his homemade spine tester. I believe you'll get some good feedback from that thread on exactly why indexing your nocks will change your arrow flight.

Can anyone post a link to that thread?

RE: About Heavy Arrows?
 

I found the thread for you.
[link]http://forum.hunting.net/asppg/tm.asp?m=776787&mpage=1&key=spine%2Ctester&#776787[/link]

RE: About Heavy Arrows?
 

Spine MIGHT be contributing, but I would think it only really would matter if you were borderline on spine.

I do feel its probably the arrows. Try the index of the nocks mentioned above, then try turning the inserts in the shaft. If nock or insert is out of alignment then you will get funky flight.

--Bob

RE: About Heavy Arrows?
 

I had assumed from the above that proper spine from the get go was addressed, but based on my experience with "pro" shops, should have known better?

I'd like to add that turning your nocks will be tough to do unless you're shooting a drop away rest. Otherwise fletch contact can give you funky results as well...

RE: About Heavy Arrows?
 

duplicate post

RE: About Heavy Arrows?
 

IMO, inconsistent spine is a major issue with carbons and, like Bob H said, if you're on the high end of the shafts' spine class the problem is magnified. Also, carbons do lose some stiffness after they've been used some. That's why when you look at the chart for a carbon arrow and see you're within 5 pounds of needing the next size up, ALWAYS go to the next size up.

Then there is straightness. An arrow shaft with +/-.006 straightness simply does not shoot as accurately as an arrow with +/-.003 or better straightness. Of course, skill level plays a part there. I guess many people simply can't shoot good enough to see the difference between junk and premium arrows.;)

Inside diameters aren't very consistent with carbon arrows. Some inserts are very snug when you install them, some are loose and sloppy. The loose, sloppy ones can easily be installed crooked, and a crooked insert will make it nearly impossible to get broadheads to spin true. Same thing can happen on the nock end as well. A nock that isn't properly aligned with the shaft will cause the string to launch that arrow at an angle to the line of sight. If both nock AND insert are misaligned.... Hopeless.

Arrow speed... The faster the arrow is flying, the more any problems you have with your arrow will be magnified. Wind resistance for a subsonic projectile increases at the cube of the projectile's speed. So, with any misalignment in the broadhead will cause an arrow at 270 fps to plane far worse than that same problem in an arrow at 220 fps. More wind resistance against a misaligned surface will push that surface further off it's line of travel. Hope that makes sense.

So, a heavier arrow will fly slower and reduce the effects of those problems. But the real answer is to get consistent arrows to begin with. Aluminums and ACC's are far more consistent than any ICS type carbon arrow yet made.

Then there is the question of fletching size/type. Are you using enough fletch to properly control your broadheads? Larger fletching (steerage) at the tail end of the arrow can help counteract broadhead steerage (planing) at the front end. Also, switching from vanes to feathers and/or increasing the amount of helical/offset can create more tail end steerage and make the arrows shoot straighter. Not straight, just straighter.

The root cause(s) for the planing has to be addressed in order to completely cure the problem. After several years of struggling with carbons, and since I can't afford to use ACC's on a regular basis, what I decided to do is to continue using aluminum arrows. I also use the heavier, thick walled and more durable shafts than the light, beer can thin ones that get bent and dinged up so easy. Confining my hunting shots to 30 yards and less, trajectory is simply not an issue, and the weight of those arrows make the shot whisper quiet. Not to mention the additional force the heavier arrow has when the it makes contact.

Carbon arrows do have certain advantages, which is why I've tried so desperately to get them to work for me, and wasted hundreds of dollars in the process. I'm totally dissatisfied with the quality I've seen.

There is one carbon/glass composite arrow that I do like: Carbon Express Terminator Selects. I like the weight. I like the quality. If I'm not shooting aluminum - or wood - arrows, that's what is in my quiver.

RE: About Heavy Arrows?
 

I can't thank you all enough, especially Rangeball and Arthur P. Now, I do know I have the correct spine from the tables, although I am toward the upper range of draw weights for the spine I'm using.

Sorry, but I don't get what you all are saying about spinning the nocks. Do you mean to just spin them to some random point? Or line them up with a vane, but not the cock vane?
Or what?

Aluminums scare me to death, in theory, because I've never used them. They scare me because I'm very susceptible to mental hexes that I put on myself, at least where archery is concerned. It's the bending issue that bugs me. I'm going to be constantly convinced that I've bent a shaft. Say I lay the bow in the car to go practice and bump the arrows lightly. I'm going to go into that practice session with the thought in the back of my mind that maybe I bent an arrow. Then if I shoot a bad arrow, I'm going to be thinking, yep it's bent. Then it all goes down hill from there. Before you know I'm a basket case, can't hit the side of barn, and throw my bow in the lake. It may sound funny, but that's my so-called brain for you.

How susceptible to bending are ACCs, or is it possible? They are blended aluminum and carbon, right? Also, I'll check out the CE Terminators.

Thanks again.

RE: About Heavy Arrows?
 

You're welcome :)

This is what Arthur was talking about, if you're within 5#s of the upper range, jump up to the next stiffest spine. This could be some of your issue.

Yes, just turn them a bit at a time and shoot. What you are trying to do is find the same flex from arrow to arrow, which could vary by how the arrows were manufactured and subsequently fletched. Imagine a shaft. Mark two points, on on top, one on bottom. With the top spot up, the shaft bends easily. With the bottom mark up, the shaft doesn't bend as easily. The way most carbons are made, this is what is going on, and you are trying to match the same flex so that each arrow is released as close to the exact same way as possible.

Try tequila... :)

I started out with 6 ACCs over a year ago, am now down to 4. One went through a door frame then into a brick wall when I was messing with my release sensitivity (light is bad), I lost the other when I shot under a buck this year, went into thick crap and couldn't find it.

That said, if you take care of them and don't yank and twist them like crazy when removing them from 3D targets, they should last a long long time. To me, the combine the best of both worlds- Aluminum consistency and carbon durability.

It's often said that carbon's are either straight or broken. Not entirely true, they may stay pretty straight, but spine degradation is their downfall. The aluminum core of the ACC seems to take care of this issue perfectly.

Don't remember if Arthur suggested it, but make sure you get the "selects". They are available via pro-shop only (and some mail order shops, I think), and have the tightest specs.

Good Luck :)

Thanks again.
[/quote]

RE: About Heavy Arrows?
 

Bending an ACC can be done, but they are a bit tougher than regular aluminum. I need to tell you that aluminums are not as fragile as you think you they are. Two things that are going to bend aluminum arrows are pulling them improperly from a 3-D target, or glancing them off something when you shoot. Very rarely do you bend an aluminum arrows under normal circumstances. I wouldn't treat my carbons any differently than I would an aluminum arrow. All of your archery equipment should be treated with care if you expect it to work right every time.

You want a mental hex, how about this. How do you know your carbons are straight and not warped to some degree, which would be the same thing as a slightly bent aluminum? Are you just assuming because they are new they are right? I wouldn't if I were you, especially if they were not higher end carbons (like 80-100 dollars a dozen). It's not uncomon for carbons to not be right striaght out of the box. If you have not checked them you will never know. I would say get an arrow spinner, or make one with a 2x4 and some nails in a V at each end. You will need it any way to check your inserts and nocks.

I will add though that I have shot a lot of carbon arrows and never really had a problems with any of them shooting well. Mine are usually on the stiff and short side though.

As far as your groups go these are a few things you should check. #1 on the list is number your arrows! This will let you know if certain arrows are doing certain things every time. This would tell you something is wrong with a particular arrow or arrows and you can check it or just not use it for hunting purposes.

Check for fletching contact with your rest, riser and harness for each arrow. You can either spray foot powder in the fletchings, or the rest and check. I heard lipstick works too. Or if you have been shooting a while just inspect your vanes and bow. There will be marks on both where it is making contact. This is the very first thing you do when setting up a rest and using new arrows. With the carbons you can just index the nocks (turn them) in the shaft untll your vanes line up in a way that they will not hit anything. And you do know to nock the arrow the same way every time right? If your fletchings are in a different spot everytime you shoot an arrow you will have all sorts of problems with contact issues.

The next thing you need to do is spin the arrows in something to see if the inserts and nocks are straight. You will aslo see a badly bent or warped arrow this way as well. Especially with a good ball bearing type arrow spinner. Do this with the broad heads in the arrows and watch the tips closely to see if they spin true or make a circle. Sometimes it helps to mark a box or something and put it up near the tip, this gives you a reference point to look at while they turn. This will tell you if the inserts are in striaght or the ferrel on the head is bent. If it does not spin true swap heads and try it again. If it does the same thing, it is the insert or a warped arrows. With an aluminum this could be easily fixed by heating up the insert and rotating it or re-inserting it. It's a bit trickier with carbons since they are more permenently glued in. If you switch heads and it is better, it was the head and it most likely isn't any good. You could try it in another arrow though to make sure. Sometimes I try all my heads on all my arrows just to see if I can get them absolutely perfect.

Next you want to see if the nocks are straight. Same thing as the heads pretty much, spin the arrows and see if the nocks spin true to the shaft. If not try a different nock or don't use that arrow to hunt with. And if you decide to switch to aluminums, get Uni Bushings, this will let you rotate the nocks just like you can with the carbons. I hate glue on nocks. Of course that is just a preference thing I guess.

And like said above, make sure you have adequate fletching and Front of Center. A heavier tip might help this as long as it doesn't throw your spine off. A heavier tip will make your arrow weaker. I slight offset is probably fine. You can shoot fixed heads with straight vanes, but they are a bit trickier to tune well and you need to have good form.

Lastly, are you sure it's the arrows? Shooting fixed blades magnifies any form errors you may have and they are harder to shoot accurately. If you can't get anything to repeat after you number your arrows it may just boil down to working on your form and release a bit more, or you have a fairly unforgiving set up.

Also having a badly out of tune bow would give you some problems as well.

As far as turning the nocks for the spine thing, this is what I get out of it. From what they are saying carbons (maybe aluminums as well) will have a stiff side and a weak side to them because of how they are made. When you release an arrow with a release aid it flexes in an up and down motion as it leaves the bow, and sometime all the way to the target. These guys playing with spine testers have found as they rotate the arrow around while checking spine it will vary as they index the arrow. Since the arrow will bend in the same mannor every time it is released (up and down) you could turn your nocks so the stiff side of the arrow was on the top or the bottom effectively increasing your spine. Of course without a spine tester it would be hit and miss and you would have to do a lot of shooting to get it right. That is if you could even tell the difference in the first place. My advice is index your nocks so he vanes are lined up to give the best clearance and forget about it.

Good luck,
Paul