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The bow is very accurate, however it seems to change windage overnight. I will shoot about 6-8'' groups at 65 yards one day and the next I will put that same group 6-8'' to the right or left of the center.

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ORIGINAL: walks with a gimp

The BowTech Sampson is gone from the line up in '05. The new Allegiance will be available up to 100 pounds but only 30 inch draw. The new BowTech Old Glory will go to 31 inch draw but only 70 pounds, do you really need 80 pounds??? I'd highly recomend going to using a release to increase your accuracy, a different bow might be adjusted to fit you better but try a release with your old bow and see if it makes a difference;)

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ORIGINAL: muzzyman88

Slim, not to pick on you or anything, but one statement stands out to me...

Unless your sight or rest is coming loose, this sounds more like an inconsistant form issue. I'll get a day or so like that where I hit more the left side or right side of my aiming point and its almost always me getting lazy on form.

On the bow note you have quite a handful of good bows there. My advice would be to shoot them all until you find which feels best to you. I personally shoot an Xtec and really like it. Being that you're a finger shooter a longer ATA bow would be a better fit for you. The Xtec is 35 1/2" ATA. You may want to take a look at either the ProTec or the UltraTec if you're looking for more added length.

Oh, and don't foget brace height. The Xtec, Ultratec, and the Protec are 7"+ in the catagory too.

Don't get hung up on one brand though. Bowtech is coming up with a lineup that has a couple bows in it that would do you nicely as well.

Be patient and shop around, shoot em all, then decide.

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1.) Consistant accuracy!
2.) Reliability (I don't want to worry about cam, string, or cable problems where the bow always has to be readjusted or meticulously checked)
3.) Forgivness
4.) Quietness

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I think a guy with your draw length should stay will the longer ATA bows. An 8" or longer brace (distance from deepest part of grip to the string) will also add some forgiveness.

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ORIGINAL: Straightarrow

Almost every bow made is equally accurate. Consistency comes from the archer form and his ability to tune the bow.

The reliability you're referring to, comes from the quality of the string. I highly recommend getting a custom made string to eliminate any concern in this area. Most stock strings are adequate at best. Since you should regularly replace your string, it's my opinion that you should start out with what you'll always be shooting. There are many guys making reasonably priced custom strings that will not creep and will not stretch after a very short break-in period.

Forgiveness - It sounds like the bow you're currently shooting is designed on the more forgiving side than the ones you're considering.

Quiet - Almost alll new bows are quiet - even the very inexpensive ones. If they aren't, a few cheap add-on silencing products will quickly make it so. I personally would not choose a bow based on this requirement. It's simply too easy to get almost all current bows to shoot very quietly.

As a side note, I think a guy with your draw length should stay will the longer ATA bows. An 8" or longer brace (distance from deepest part of grip to the string) will also add some forgiveness. A reflex bow has the limbs attached in front of the bow's grip. A deflex riser would have the limbs attached in the rear of the grip - towards the archer.

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ORIGINAL: Arthur P

I've got a 33.5" draw length and shoot fingers and, when I shoot a compound, it's a ProTec with an axle to axle length of 46" and 8" brace height. I've got LXPro limbs on mine, but Hoyt has discontinued them and replaced them with XT4000 limbs this year. (Looks like the same limb but with a different name?:eek:) I'd suggest the ProTec with Cam 1/2 and XT4000 limbs. It is available up to 80 pounds draw weight. Unless you just want to switch to release shooting[:'(], this is the bow that best fits your requirements.

I had a Pearson a few years back and had the same problem with wandering windage. I tracked the problem down to the grip. For some reason, I couldn't grab the handle the same way, from one day to the next, and the bow was extremely 'torque-y'. So, I replaced that tacky, soft rubber grip with their optional wood grip. The bow was still very particular about how it wanted to be gripped, but it was much easier to get it consistent from one day to the next.

Also, it sounds like you need to get your string and cable twisted up some to get your draw weight back.

Straightarrow is right on the money, IMO. The longer an arrow stays on the string, the longer you've got to screw up the shot. With my 33.5" draw and 8" brace height, my arrow travels with the string for 25.5" before it's free. If I had a bow with a 6.5" brace, it'd be on the string for 27". That's another inch-and-a-half of travel time. Another 1.5" for me to move my bow arm. Another 1/5" for the bow's torque to mess with my arrow flight. Another 1.5" where the string can interfere with the arrow's paradox.

As far as speed goes, the longer the arrow is powered by the string the faster it goes, BUT! How much power stroke do you need, anyway? Somebody with a 30" draw and a bow with a 6.5" brace height winds up with a power stroke of 23.5". If you've got a 32" draw and use a bow with an 8" brace, you've got a power stroke of 24". You've still got the other guy beat and are using a more forgiving brace height.

The big thing about reflex vs deflex risers is torque. With a reflex riser, the bow's grip is between your string hand and the limb butts. Your bow hand has enough mechanical advantage to really twist the snot out of the grip, especially on a high letoff bow. The deflex riser puts the limb butts between the grip and the string hand, eliminating the bow hand's mechanical advantage. Deflex risers are very resistant to torque and are much more stable and 'forgiving' as a result.

Reflex risers are for short armed little twerps who want more arrow speed and are willing to deal with all the torque problems of a reflex riser to get a low brace height and longer power stroke. Ape armed guys -like us;)- can get the benefits of a high brace height AND deflex riser and still get more power stroke than the stubbies can. [8D]

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ORIGINAL: jmac_or

I would also ask why you want an 80# bow. Drop that to 70#'s and with your draw length, you will still be smokin arrows. The lighter draw will also help "control" the bow better. There will be less strain, allowing you to think about form and execution more. Other than that, I can not add to what has already been stated. Maybe get a coach if you continue to see those creeping shots days.
JMAC

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ORIGINAL: JOE PA

I would also suggest you give the Darton Tundra Extreme a look, but I'm not sure if they come in 80# though. I've owned a lot of bows in the last few years, including one mentioned as "best" earlier in this thread. I wouldn't trade the Tundra for any 2 of them! :D

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Can you give me a couple resources for custom-made strings?

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So do you believe that shooting with fingers is as accurate and consistant as shooting with a release?

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So do you perfer the Hoyt ProTec better then the Pearson? What are the advantages to the Hoyt?

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ORIGINAL: Rangeball

Slim, from your pic above, it looks like you have one of your vanes lined up to go right through the black part of the WB. Perhaps not since you shoot fingers, but the fact that it's more "wavy" and distorted than the other two suggests you are getting hard contact.

You may want to rotate your nocks so that the vanes clear the black fibers and see if you get better arrow flight. Of course this will most likely necessitate a retune and sight in, so keep that in mind...

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ORIGINAL: Arthur P

It depends on the person and on the application. For most people who have a goal of pinwheeling 1" dia X-rings, shot after shot, probably not. For hunting, where you're shooting to hit a soccerball size kill area, fingers release is definitely as accurate and consistent. Assuming, of course, you have a bow that is long enough to allow a fingers release and you've done your part with practicing and developing an accurate, consistent release.

Plus, fingers release has several advantages over mechanical releases. Primarily, you don't get that metallic, game spooking 'CLICK' at the release. If you forget your tab/glove and don't have a backup in your pocket, you can still shoot barefingered. If you forget your release and don't have a backup, you go back home. You can buy a whole pocketful of tabs for what one decent release will cost, and similar gloves/tabs will give you a similar release. You just have to hope a backup release will shoot close to the same as your primary release. Often they don't.

And you don't have to worry about clanking your fingers against the bow or the stand and scaring all the critters out of the county. A release, swinging on a wrist strap tho....

For myself, I actually do shoot better with my fingers than I can with a release. I guess it's one of those 'old dog, new tricks' thingies.

Other than the Hoyt split limbs being far superior to Pearson's - wider and more stable with better construction - and better performance from Hoyt's Cam 1/2 than you can get with Pearson's single cam system - I have never had any problem getting a consistent, repeatable grip with Hoyt handles.

How far can I confidently shoot? If you're talking targets, I'll shot with confidence out to 80 yards and beyond, barebow and fingers release. If you're talking game animals, I have a personal limit no further than 30 yards. If I can't get within 30 yards of the animal I want, I have not earned the right to draw my bow. That is simply my challenge to myself and has no bearing on my shooting skill. I bowhunt to get close to animals. If I were taking 50 yard shots, I figure I might as well be using a 30-30.

As to what size groups I currently shoot with my Hoyt, honestly... I suck. My shoulder is shot, from shooting ultra heavy draw bows in my younger days, when they were easy to handle. 15 years ago, I was shooting compounds up to 100 pounds and longbows up to 120 pounds. Now I've got arthritis in the shoulder joint and a collarbone that pops out of socket at my sternum. Before the shoulder went south on me though, I could hold archer's minute of angle or better out to 90 meters. When I first got it, my Hoyt was set at 60. Now I've had to back off to 50 and it's gotten to where I can't handle even that any more. It looks like if I want to continue shooting archery, I'm gonna have to switch to lefty.

That's my only comment on your preference for shooting 80 pounds. ;)

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ORIGINAL: JOE PA

One thing I would definitely change on your setup is the bow quiver. You can get a better quiver that keeps the arrows closer to the bow for much reduced torque. You could also take the wood side plates off your Pearson, and cover the riser with fleece or moleskin and see if that doesn't improve your possible torque issues. I personally would not expect great accuracy with the Whisker Biscuit shooting fingers, but I guess it can be done. I know that guys do quite well with them shooting with a release aid.

The Darton Tundra Extreme is 40.5 Axle to Axle with a 7.5" brace height. It is rated @ 311 IBO, so it is very fast for such forgiving specs. My old damaged shoulders are pulling #61 and the bow is putting out 65 lb./ft. of kinetic energy (29.5" draw).

Darton Archery

The Reflex model that Straightarrow is referring to is the Reflex Caribou. I think it is about 42 or 44" ATA and has a brace of 9" or so. It is not a fast bow, but should be forgiving.

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ORIGINAL: Sharpshot_71

I didnt read the rest of the posts, but i would have to say if you dont want to have to worry about tinkering with the bow at all, making adjustments, or having adjustments made, then the Hoyt might not be the best pick. Hoyt makes a great bow, dont get me wrong, but with the twin cam, over time they will get out of adjustment. I dont know how long, but it can and will happen.

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ORIGINAL: Straightarrow

There's probably a couple who frequent this forum. If not, you can go to the forum in the following link, which has many advertising and several who post a lot. [link]http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/[/link]

Custom strings are better, because of the methods used to tie the string, pre-stretch it, and serve it correctly and carefully. The string materials used are the same. However, there are quite a few choices on the market, and I'm partial to Brownell's Ultracam, which has the least stretch of any.

Speaking of forgiving bows, Reflex makes a long ATA bow that has some good specs. I can't remember the model name, but Chuck Adams shoots it.

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When you shoot with fingers do you put the three fingers below the arrow or two below and one above? I have seen the three fingers below method used, but I use the other. What are the advantages and disadvantages to both methods?

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ORIGINAL: Dairy King

Why are you changing your tiller so it doesnt hit?

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On a side note: Do you put moleskin on the grip? What is the advantage? Other then your hand staying firmly in place.

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ORIGINAL: Dairy King

Are you talking to me, because of my signature? I have moleskin on my bow to quiet it down. Its underneath the string on the limbs, to quiet string slap, and around my rest, so before i got my WB it would keep my arrow from clangin.

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So, do you have any pictures of the moleskin on your bow?

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ORIGINAL: Arthur P

If you want to put your bow's tiller back to the factory settings, measure from the belly side of the limbs right where they join the riser out to the string. The factory setting is the same measurment on each end.

BUT, the factory setting may not be right for your shooting style. You adjust the tiller on your bow to accomodate your grip, so that both limbs work equally. Draw your bow slowly. If the bow pulls UP during the draw the top limb is too strong, and you need to take some tension off the top limb bolt. If the bow pulls DOWN, then the bottom limb is too strong and you need to take tension off of that limb bolt. You want the bow to remain dead steady in your hand as you draw straight back. That is the proper tiller setting for your shooting style with that particular bow. Result, it will be much easier to hold steady as you aim and it will help tame any recoil or 'shock' you may be experiencing. And it will improve the bow's consistency.

Also, my theory is that a bow will do exactly the same thing during the shot that it does on the draw. If a bow is pulling up during the draw, then that stronger limb will overpower the bottom limb during the shot and cause the bow to rock in the hand. Straight and level nock travel? No hope of it. If your form varies the slightest bit, then accuracy is out the window.

Getting both limbs to pull evenly will straighten out your nock travel and improve your bow's forgiveness. Possibly even get faster arrow speed as well, with more energy going from the bow to the arrow, rather than that energy being used up with one limb fighting the other. Doing like most guys nowadays and just cranking down both limb bolts down as far as they'll go... They'll never get the best performance or accuracy that their bows are capable of delivering.

Adjust your tiller to fit you and achieve a level launch attitude for the arrow. Then adjust your rest, nock height and nock/fletching alignment to eliminate rest contact. I believe that is what arrowman was trying to get across.

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ORIGINAL: 3 Shot

Mathews Ovation:

Specifications
IBO Rating (FPS) (approx.) 300
AMO Rating
(FPS) (approx.) 230
Cam(s) Straightline OVHP Cam
Draw Weight 40, 50, 60, 70 lbs.
Draw Length 28-32 in. Half Sizes 28.5 - 31.5 in.
Note:The 32" 65% Cam will NOT adjust to 80%
Axle to Axle Length
(approx) 40 in.
Brace Height
(approx.) 8 in.
Riser Length 27 1/8 in.
Physical Weight
(approx.) 4.5 lbs.
Letoff (%) 80%, 65%
String/Cable Length String 106 1/4" Cable 41 7/8"


The 32" 65% Cam will NOT adjust to 80%, however, the 32" 80% is adjustable to 65%(31 1/2")

That is all the specs on the Ovation.

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