I guess Pinwheel12 was right....
 

I took this quote off of an ArcheryTalk.com discussion about the new Bowtech Equalizer cam system.

"From my inquiries. Set up nock level. Will paper tune with virtually any spine arrow. level nock travel, very little side to side nock travel."

I guess straight and level nock travel really does make sense, despite arguments to the contrary in the past.

Let the good times roll,
JMAC

RE: I guess Pinwheel12 was right....
 

All just depends on who is pushing it I guess.:D[8D]

Just for the record, most hybrids do basically the same thing, but only a few have symmetrical cams and a round cable track that allows for straight and level nock travel at all drawlengths. The Merlin Omega for instance (well yeah, my commercial time! LOL) is one that is already astonishing as to the ease of setup and acceptance of variously-spined arrows. The Dartons are excellent as well, IMHO.

The Equalizer will be another of a myriad of variations to the original hybrid design that we'll continue to see in the coming months and years. Quite a few came out last year too if you remember. I'm sure that if it is of true hybrid design and care was taken in the development of it that it will shoot as good as the rest and the Bowtech following with love it. If not it will end up much like the G3 did..... Remember they ALL shoot the same through paper when shot out of a machine, so care must be taken in designing the overall geometry of the ENTIRE bow, not just the cam system. Some do this far better than others..... We'll leave the rest to everyones' imagination/opinions on that...;)

BTW--

Wonder when Mathews will come out with one?[8D] Maybe we should start a pool..... Good shooting, Pinwheel 12

RE: I guess Pinwheel12 was right....
 

Glad to see some folks are finally coming around to the fact the guys who are on the manufacturing side of the archery coin actually do know what we are talking about:eek:

RE: I guess Pinwheel12 was right....
 

Yeah he doesn't know it, but I always look for his posts. A good guy with lots of valuable info. Thanks pin

RE: I guess Pinwheel12 was right....
 

And his backhand is still quite sharp as well.;)

RE: I guess Pinwheel12 was right....
 

Never. Why would they? They already have the best cam system ever made. A hybrid is simply a bandaid for a poorly designed single cam.

RE: I guess Pinwheel12 was right....
 

I've just GOT to find that post where PW12 thanked me for steering him in the right direction!!!:D:D;)

I am very intrigued about the new Equalizer cam. I've had it explained to me in detail and have an order in for whatever comes off the production line first. They know that I'll test it immediately on my APPLE machine and that I will tear it apart and try to make it fail. They're still willing to sell me some units; therefore, they may just have something there.:eek::)

RE: I guess Pinwheel12 was right....
 

After trying Dartons CPS system I am sold on "Hybrid" cams. If bowtech can combine a good cam with their other features I may finally end up with my "perfect" bow. Something fast, smooth, with very little noise, shock or vibration. One can only hope:)

RE: I guess Pinwheel12 was right....
 

The cam system has always been great from a tuning/drawing/accuracy standpoint. Personally I just have never been able to find a hybrid with a reallysmooth shooting platform (without adding 5 pounds of sims gear) regardless if it's Martin, Darton, Hoyt, Merlin, Pearson, AR,etc. I think now with BT's inherent pleasant shooting characteristics that may become a reality.

Should be a great year for them. ATA booth will be absolutely freakin over-run.:D

RE: I guess Pinwheel12 was right....
 

I don't think anyone ever said he was wrong in the first palce. It was more a matter of questioning of how relevant it really is or how much it really does matter. Especially, when you consider the perfect vegas rounds that have been shot with bows with horrible nock travel. What people were saying was that if a bow with level nock travel was so vastly superior then they would be dominating on the tournament trail where shooters of equal ability were competing against one another. But they weren't. Some people try to take one aspect of archery that their equipment does better than anothers and then paint it as the "do all end all" when in reality that just isn't the case. Is level nock travel better than unlevel nock travel? Sure. Will the bow with level nock travel out shoot the bow with unlevel nock travel? Maybe and maybe not it all depends on the 2 bows and who is shooting them.

RE: I guess Pinwheel12 was right....
 

Ya know, what we need around here is a good Troll Killa'... :)

RE: I guess Pinwheel12 was right....
 

Silentassasin,

Did anyone ever tell you that you sound like a pretty smart guy?

:)

RE: I guess Pinwheel12 was right....
 

Jeesh, don't tell him that. We don't need any heads swelled any bigger than they are around here! ;)

RE: I guess Pinwheel12 was right....
 

A couple of times but it was always family members so I assumed they were just being nice:D I get accused of a lot of things but that normally isn't one of them.[:-];):D

RE: I guess Pinwheel12 was right....
 

Yeah, it's a shame only two people here will get that. Just doing my job Rangeball. Maybe I should change my nick here? ;)

RE: I guess Pinwheel12 was right....
 

Bigpapa-- Yep!

Dwd---Thanks-- Much appreciated.

JoePA--C'mon now, where's the love?:D

PMantle-- Oh-- I wasn't aware of that.[:'(][8D]

Len--It's around here somewhere!;) Also you must be selling alot of Bowtechs for you to make a followup statement like that---wait till Rex hears about that![8D] LOL.

5shot--Yep, IF it is all they say it is. I sincerely wish them luck.

JeffB-- C'mon--- nothing wrong with any of the aforementioned hybrids and their draw cycles, that's for sure-- and by looking at the Equalizers' radius on both the string and cable track it will be much the same as the others you mentioned. But you are correct, the booth will be overrun and they will sell lots of bows in 2005.

SIlent Assassin--- Correct to an extent---If that were totally true then there would be no need to go any further with technology at all, right? Why make things more difficult for oneself and compete against those with superior equipment? BECAUSE THEY ARE PAID TO BY THOSE MANUFACTURERS, that's why. Nothing more, nothing less. Individual skill level always comes into play, but if you can gain any advantage while competing or hunting, why not do it?

Rangeball--Yep!

PAB--Yes, he is, I agree!

SA--Also agree.

Good shooting, Pinwheel 12

RE: I guess Pinwheel12 was right....
 

Kevin, I took Jeff's post to mean "other than draw cycle", as in noise, hand shock, recoil, steady to aim, etc...


PMantle, you're just mad cause you bought an LX :)

RE: I guess Pinwheel12 was right....
 

JeffB,
Did you ever shoot the Merlin Max Extreme? I lined it up against bowtech liberty, justice, Mathews (forget which ones), and it at least held its own. I have no string silencers, an old style 7" doinker, and a 3D Rover rest, that is it, no sims gear. The bow draws VERY smoothly, is completely dead on the shot, and even the Hoyt shooters I shoot with in league comment on how quiet that bow is. The only noise is the slight bump from the rest. Not saying the others bows were not great shooters, as you all know, they are. This little Merlin I have is a real nice shooter, add to that it great ability to stack broadhead tipped arrows, and I think it is a real winner. Just some comments.

I have not shot the Hoyts, just can't get used to the TEC risers, but they seem to be nice shooters as well.

JMAC

RE: I guess Pinwheel12 was right....
 

Mad? Yeah right. :D

RE: I guess Pinwheel12 was right....
 

Can't remember just who said it but I believe it was Pinwheel 12 concerning the developement of the hybrids and the Cam &1/2... Something on the order of "pretty soon we'll be seeing the re-inventing of the dual cam":D Well,,, I think it's here!! I'm up to three of the new '05's than I'd love to have!!!! I wonder if some of the grand kids would miss a Christmas present or two this year????:([:@]:)

RE: I guess Pinwheel12 was right....
 

I don't know about that, but if they only have to give up a present or two to cover that bill, where do I sign up to be one of your grandkids?

:D

PMantle, why don't you go bust a nock or something... :D

RE: I guess Pinwheel12 was right....
 

Exactly what I meant. When I can find a hybrid that aims as well for me, has a similar "lock-in" valley, super solid wall, shoots with the same or less vibe/recoil/noise and aims as steady for me like the Liberty or the Outback (not including the noise on the OB), has a comfy grip,AND offers good speed for the effort, then I will be the first to jump on it. I just haven't found it yet. With the extreme parallel limbs, increased speeds, and solid draw stop, I'm hoping the Binary cam will suceed where others have failed me personally. I've already got the word from BT that noise-wise it's approaching the noise levels of the F-cam bows, so I think there is some promise.

Jmac,

I did get a chance to run some arrows through a Max-Xtreme this year. Nice bow. Well built as all Merlin's are, smooth draw.. Felt very similar to my Martin Razor-X SE w/ Tru-arcs... about the same speed, and quieter with less vibe, just not to my personal liking overall. I believe if that bow were made with the R2 cams , I'd prefer that.

RE: I guess Pinwheel12 was right....
 

I just got off the phone with my nearest BowTech dealer:D I ordered a Defender for the wife in 60/26 inch draw:) Now,,, I need to make up my mind for what I want,,, but probably later:(;)

RE: I guess Pinwheel12 was right....
 

JeffB,
Fair enough. I was just wondering if that one met your requirements. It currently meets mine, although I want to get a faster bow in addition to play with now. Anyone got an 03 Pat Dually for sale? Sounds like you may be making room WWAG??? :D:D

JMAC

RE: I guess Pinwheel12 was right....
 

I think that SA and others continually confuse tournament accuracy with hunting effectiveness/efficiency. I find many of my new customers complaining about fixed BH flight and penetration. Their field tip shooting is VERY accurate, but many won't shoot fixed BHs because of inconsistency. They also wonder why they're not getting the penetration that they used to get with some of their old bows.

I give them lenghty explanations for both of these complaints.

RE: I guess Pinwheel12 was right....
 

Len,,, does "old Bows" mean like,, 10 or more years old?? If so, I'll guess hatchet cams, aluminum arrows with tighter component fit and heavier shafts adds up to penetration and more consistent accuracy at hunting distances???

RE: I guess Pinwheel12 was right....
 

Well, if what I just saw posted in the Bowtech thread on the Bowhunting forum is correct, then the older dual cam style might be a thing of the past considering Bowtech is only basically offering the BK2 in a dual cam model. However, I would be interested in hearing a comparison of how the new Equalizer style cam system would stack up against a conventional dual cam design.

RE: I guess Pinwheel12 was right....
 

That was probably the biggest issue with the Max-Extreme for me. I was not real impressed with the speed, at least at my 28.5" draw length. It's decent considering the specs, but it was slower than the 3 bows I had at the time, and they are all on the "bottom edge" of what I prefer to have. Bow shot great tho, very accurate. And the new anodizing for cams and pockets is much better than the old orange color. I would certainly recommend the bow.

However, I think with a set of X-Treme limbsavers I would have been happy with it in all the other aspects. An 80 pound model , or an extra 10-15 FPS with the R2 cams @ 70 pounds and turbo mods would prolly give me what I want speed-wise. I really like those R2 cams.

RE: I guess Pinwheel12 was right....
 

This unnerves me a bit. While the performance of the Equalizer certainly on paper seems very good, I'd hate to see the all-out speed of the duals on model like the Patriot and Pro 40 go by the wayside. It's very exciting and nice to be able to shoot a 60 pound bow that produces so much speed and energy. People at the shop are always floored by it when I've let them shoot my personal bows.

RE: I guess Pinwheel12 was right....
 

JeffB,
This is in my opinion the one slightly negative aspect of the bow. But, I knew that going in and I did get what I wanted, a smooth, accurate, hunting bow. I also agree with you about the R2 cams on that bow. I think a little speed option in that format would be just plain fun. All of the inherent good shooting aspects of a Merlin, with a little speed for fun.

WWAG,
So, are you thinning the bow stable? Seems like your bow rack will be pretty full come December. I really need an '03 dually..:D:D

JMAC

RE: I guess Pinwheel12 was right....
 

Nope,,, not thinnin' the BowTech herd in this household;) I've got 7 grand kids to pass then on to and I'm surely not giving up my '03 Pat DC!!! I like the '03 Pat DC VERY much and feel that a used one would be well worth what ever it takes to buy one if you're looking:) Lots of energy and speed with forgivness to go with out of the '03 model!!! Check E-Bay soon for '03 and '04 models when the '05's hit the dealers;)

RE: I guess Pinwheel12 was right....
 

JeffB-

Thanks for your fair assessment of the Max X.;)

Jmac-

Thanks for your input---this is how all manufacturers produce better equipment.

Now-

The R2 cams offer the same relative speeds as the Omega cam system if utilizing the target modules, which much like the Omega produce the smooth draw that everyone wants in a hunting bow. Sure we could slap the Turbo mods on them and beef up the speed by 15fps, but in a hunting bow, high speed means squat to anyone except the younguns who like to see it go thru a chrono or those who are trying to take down antelope at 80 yds and need a tighter hit window---everyone else knows that you ALWAYS give to get when it comes to speed, I played that game myself when I was younger and yep, it takes awhile to figure it out, but eventually most everyone does as they get older.;) The Max X produces more-than-adequate speed and KE for a bow with over 8" of brace height, BTW.

So, we decided to offer the smooth draw that everyone wanted, while still maintaining excellent geometry, brace height, and shootability/accuracy needed for definitive arrow placement under stressful hunting conditions. We personally feel we hit the goal with the Max X, and it certainly does exactly what it was designed to do.

Now, Merlin does keep their ears open to customers' wants/needs, so you never know what may pop up in the future lineup! ;)

Good shooting, Pinwheel 12

RE: I guess Pinwheel12 was right....
 

Jmac,

I have an 03 Pat Dually I'm trying to get rid of. It's not exactly stock, but is in brand new condition with new WC strings. Since the 03 draw lengths were way too long (over 1"), and I didn't want to give up any speed, I got some 1" shorter limbs and correct length new strings, and swapped everything out. So now it has 1" shorter a to a, 1" shorter BH, and the draw length was shortened by about 1" also, so the 30" modules draw a true 30". I haven't cronied it in a while,and I can't remeber the speeds I got, but I do remeber I was pretty happy (no small task). I don't currently have the bow because I loaned it to someone whose was stolen, but they decided on an o4 Pro 40 dually, so it is available and hasn't seen much use at all; either before or after the swap.
I can get it back if it sounds like something you'd be interested in. If you need any additional details, just PM me.

RE: I guess Pinwheel12 was right....
 

PW12,
As I have stated before, I think the Max is a GREAT hunting bow, about as good as it gets. I am getting ready to become a 2 bow owner, so I need something different. I am thinking a fun, fast bow is in order. There is a place for a little added speed, but I agree, not in hunting. Stacking broadheads at 30 and 40 yards is where it is at in the woods (mountains in my case).

Nice how you *hint*hint* there.;) I think a smooth shooting speed bow from Merlin would be a ton of fun for 3D. Don't know if I can afford another brand new, high end bow, but we will have to see.

JMAC

RE: I guess Pinwheel12 was right....
 

Pinwheel,

I agree with you now and did so then. If you can improve in an area then by all means do so. I believe there are some negative side effects of poor nock travel and if it can be improved upon then by all means it should be done. I was really pointing out the basis of the arguments that were made and the fact that while it is an improvment it is not the "holy grail".


Len,

I don't think I have it confused. I used target archery as a readily recognizable benchmark. But again, I have been shooting bows with poor nock travel for years and blowing through deer and stacking some pretty good broadhead groups also. I think that sometimes we have a tendancy over analyze and over sensationalize archery equipment. I do think improved nock travel is plus. However, several million deer have been killed with bows with piss poor nock travel. So again I just don't see it as the "holy grail". Your statement does raise a couple of questions though. If level nock travel is the new "sliced bread" wouldn't it's benefits be readily seen in the local archery tournaments or broadhead leagues etc. If not where do you see the benefits of the new system. My point is that they have been portrayed as vastly superior. In which case one would assume that the benefits would be readily recognizable. I have not seen this nor heard the magnitudes to be professing their absolute superiority either on the hunting end or the target end. So if they are vastly superior where can the novice go to see the results and if they aren't vastly superior what's all the fuss about. IMO they are just like any other cam system. If you set them up right and tune them well then they will shoot broadheads or field points as well as the shooter can. One would still think if they offer so many benefits that some of these would spill over to field tipped arrows though and the benefits could also be seen on the tournament end. Again, I am not arguing the validity of having better nock travel but rather how superior it truely is. I just tend to think some people are claiming a mountain out of a mole hill of improvement. That doesn't mean I don't think the improvment shouldn't be made but rather the improvement is not significant enough for us to forego all other designs and throw down the bows we are currently shooting in shame and disgust.

RE: I guess Pinwheel12 was right....
 

SA: I guess I'd better reiterate what I said because you REALLY read a lot into a paragraph!

Quote:

---

I think that SA and others continually confuse tournament accuracy with hunting effectiveness/efficiency. I find many of my new customers complaining about fixed BH flight and penetration. Their field tip shooting is VERY accurate, but many won't shoot fixed BHs because of inconsistency. They also wonder why they're not getting the penetration that they used to get with some of their old bows.

I give them lenghty explanations for both of these complaints.

---

I didn't categorize what bows would or wouldn't perform. Yet you seem to want to imply that I'm knocking designs. What I stated was facts pertinent to concerns by my customers, and how many of them blindly follow a segment of our sport that has categorical differences in application/design requirements/results.

What you're missing is "I give them lenghty explanations for both of these complaints." You don't have a clue about the "lengthy explanations" and subsequently seem to guess as to what they are.

I have never used or eluded to the terms "holy grail" or "sliced bread". If you think that for one minute that I would deem/portray any design as "vastly superior", you're wrong again about me. There is far more to this subject of cam design than what I'd be willing to discuss. After all, didn't I make myself clear in my first post on this thread when I stated:

Quote:

---

I am very intrigued about the new Equalizer cam. I've had it explained to me in detail and have an order in for whatever comes off the production line first. They know that I'll test it immediately on my APPLE machine and that I will tear it apart and try to make it fail. They're still willing to sell me some units; therefore, they may just have something there.

---

If you care to check with the Executives that were with Browning several years ago, I was extremely anxious to try out their new 'Zero Cam'. The initial design was nothing like what anyone expected; but, there was optimism by many, including yours truly.

You've evidently confused me with someone who has a definite mindset about any product. You may have missed the key word in one sentence in my last post. It was "...but many won't shoot fixed BHs because of inconsistency." The key word is MANY. If you don't have any problems, that's great and enjoy your equipment.

You would have to be the one to qualify the "significance" that you're looking for between products/designs. Sometimes the "significance" is a multitude of small issues that have a cumulative effect.

RE: I guess Pinwheel12 was right....
 

Len,

I think you need to step back and take a couple of deep breaths. The subject that I was discussing and that you accused me of being confused about did involve a particular type of equipment. Also, I didn't make any type of speculation about the conversations that you have with your customers. If you took it that way then you read the wrong thing into what I was saying. Also, I didn't accuse you of using or implying the terms holy grail or sliced bread. Those were my terms. It seems that sometimes people try to portray that these terms do apply. However, if you assumed that I was implying that you were one of these people then you again read to much into my post which ironically enough is exactly what you accused me of:eek:

RE: I guess Pinwheel12 was right....
 

I think this is a pretty key statement to what many of us experience. This year, I'm shooting a hybrid cam bow. I'm not sure how straight the nock travel is, because there's quite a bit of cam lean, but it still shoots good. I was assuming that this was going to make a difference in broadhead flight. It may have, but it wasn't noticable. However, my experimentation with spine testing appears to have paid much higher dividends as did my decision to switch to shooting helical feathers a few years back.

The cumulative effects of cutting off both ends of my arrows when cutting them to length, spine testing my arrows, shooting helical feathers, increasing F.O.C., and switching to a hybrid cam seem to have added up to significantly better broadhead flight. However, I do have to place credit for most of the gain on arrow adjustments, because they fly just as good out of a single cam I tested them on.

I seem to be always making adjustments and experimenting. It becomes difficult to know how much any one improvement contributed to any gains I find. This year, I went to a heavier bow with a longer ATA, revamped arrows and a new broadhead. For a person, like myself, most bows seems to work quite well. I suppose to test the forgiveness factor of any one of these features, you'd have to test them on an out-of-tune bow or shoot weakly spined arrows with straight fletch and low F.O.C.. This something I'm not all that interested in doing.

I guess what I'm saying, is that a hybrid cam may be a good choice for novice and an inconsequential one for those experienced in tuning their equipememt.