as a crossroad & a dealer, I have alot of avenues & alley's to cross to find a one way street called Positive ave.
remember: you can't change your last shoot
focus on your next
Greg

I don't know HCA very well, but I would like to see some long ATA bows, and the hatchet cam's that have all but disapeared... I would like to see them come back. The thing I don't understand is, twin cams system's are still in the infancy stages, as design and full potential go. I see all these companies jumping to single cam's when they haven't even figured out how to get top performance out of the twins. I beleive mathews was very revolutionary, but look at the new 2002 model, not the legacy, I can't think of the name? But my point is, it seems to be mutating back to a dual cam system with the idler and cam looking so much alike. I thought I heard that HCA was apart of NAA, so why don't they ask for some help from darton, and pick up the CPS system. I think they should go back to solid limbs and recurve them, I don't see the benifits in split limbs, besides weight reduction, which the carbon riser has already taken care of. As for that carbon riser, they need to weight it, or put some kind of vibration reduction system in it. Recurve limbs have proven potential for more speed, although Im not technical enough to know about rigidity and torsion factors. I also think they should bugger off with the limb pockets and go the root as bowmen, I mean the carbon is light enough to beef up the riser/limb placement and still have the bow be lite. That's just a few thought's, although Im not the best person to ask. Good shooting.
Dylan

>>>>--------o-->

ok i know you all get the magizines, well check out the back cover of petersons BOWHUNTING {hint its not martin anymore} HCA bought the whole back page.

like jeff i shot the carbon 4 runner and the dang thing jumped out of my hand, if it wasent for my cat like reflexes {yeah right} it would have hit the floor, i caught it by the string. one shot was enough.
Ron

I can think of two things that would instantly have me interested in them. Jeff and I discussed his last statement above in a previous email and I couldn't agree more....

1. The carbon riser technology is the way to go. It is the next innovative step in compound bow design. The problem as I see it though is that they are more concerned with creating a bow that weighs less than an aluminum risered one rather than coming out with a bow that weighs the same as the aluminum riser model but is three thousand times stronger.

I saw the advertisement for the SSS risered bows. My first thought was "How many of those are going to break this year?". I am being honest.

Putting more into the quality and design of the carbon risers is what will make them attractive to more folks not "being the lightest out there".

So, beef up the carbon risers so they are roughly equivalent to the aluminum ones in weight...which should not only drastically reduce noise even more so than now, but should also help with the recoil issue as well.

2. Several companies seem to have found the "happy medium" when it comes to designing a good hunting bow. In my mind a good hunting bow is relatively lightweight, maneuverable (an axle to axle length of 34 inches is perfect in my opinion), has a brace height in the 7-7.5 inch range and an IBO speed of between 315 to 320 fps.

To give you a few examples....Mathews Q2 (minus some speed), Hoyt's previous Havoc Redline model (minus some speed), Bowtech's Patriot, Champion's Mustang, etc....

In conjunction with this they need to do something with single cam design....Mathews has their perimeter weighted....Hoyt the adjustability and Bowtech..the speed.

What else can High Country come up with in this regard? Something new or something totally different? I would love to see.

You asked for my suggestions and there you have it.

I shot High Country's (as did everyone else in the free world) back when they took the 3D world by storm in the late 80's and early 90's. We had everyone on staff, Randy Ulmer, Burley Hall, Badeye Brinegar, Alvin Sluder, John Sielicki, all of the top guns of the time. All shooting the original Supreme, which was way ahead of it's time. Great shooting bow, I myself won an IBO World title back then with one as did many, many others.

Then, the thought of "shorter, lighter" got into everyones' heads for some ungodly reason, and this is where the turning point began, I believe. Things just went downhill for some reason. I switched companies in '94 due to recurring failures, poor service, and designs IMO less capable of winning than other designs of that time period. I simply felt I had to look elsewhere. Randy and others left also. I did and still do feel the company could turn around with just a few "right" moves, and once again be a top player.

IMHO to get High Country back on track they need to re-establish themselves as a driving force in the market. They had everyone shooting their bows and loving them, then they were gone. WHY? This is the main question they must answer to themselves. If they look honestly at it, I don't think it will take long to come up with the answer or answers.

I also believe that if they keep with it, Carbon Riser Technology will take over the market eventually, establishing a new precedence of strength and durability, along with vibration-reducing qualities.Seeing as High-Country now owns the rights to this technology, they could soon be like Mathews was/is with the perimeter cam and get paid royalties for it if it does take off.This would bring in more monies with which to further technology through R&D. I also feel they should "step away" from the "following" of the conventional solocam that everyone on the market has,(and has had for over 6 years now, ho-hum) and go off into their own direction on eccentric design technology, something new and refreshing (like they did when they came out with the Hatchet cam)to go along with the Carbon Riser Technology, one that would complement it. Longer ATA, deeper brace, yet still be able to hit 300+ without tearing your shoulder out due to a nasty draw cycle or 1/32" valley.

Customer service would definately have to pick up also IMHO.

IMO go back to solid limbs with the newest technology incorporated, similar to the Merlin Pro-Fusion. Recurve it also, making it smoother to draw. Don't "cheap-out" in other areas to offset expense on the riser tech. If they have to drop profit margins for a couple of years, so be it. Get the shooters back on board, and archers interested in the product again.

Put together a good shooting Staff again. (Cheap advertising)

Make sure Quality Control is TIGHT. High tolerances, nothing goes out that doesn't meet specs, and everything is tested before it leaves the factory.

The rest should take care of itself.

Just my own thoughts, Pinwheel 12

I don't see the point to high weight carbon, why would stronger than strong enough be an advantage. None of my current bows have broken in Al, including some very light and short ones.

I do see the point to a lightweight C2 (or whatever). A C2 that weighed 3 pounds could be set up to be more stable with the same overall weight. Or for that matter it would be a nice light field bow for situations where the short ATA wasn't all that critical.

55, I think the light weight that is so prized with splits isn't the overall weight of the bow, but the weight of the limbs which affects speed (that's the story) There are other issues, like intra limb ballance. There is a Randy Ulmer article on the subject over on the Hoyt site. Am I a believer? not really. I thought the whole thing mighty cool the first year it was out. The three Hoyts I have had with split limbs were/are all nice bows, but they aren't any better than lots of others.

Aestheticaly I kind of feel the whole Hoyt thing, including the tech riser, looks like a giant split end.

Why not create the A/C/C arrow of the bow world?......not sure if it's possible, but what would a riser of an underbody aluminum frame with a carbon overstructure create?
Or is it even a benefit or possible?

I'd think you'd have the underlying mass weight to help the recoil issue, and the overlying carbon to deal with vibration?

Just thinking out loud here.....and to the HCA &quot;Little Bird&quot; who may be watching. I THOUGHT OF IT FIRST AND I HAVE WITNESSES!!<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

JeffB, on points 1,2,and 3 I agree completely. Obviously, you too have had the pleasure of speaking with spencer. I have dealt face to face with him several times, I will be as polite as I can here, every time was a real treat!
Point # 4, the band aid technology on the split limbs was bad for two years, but it is actually pretty good now, IMO,anyway.
Point # 5...granted, the super lite carbon risers do require a wrist sling, but I really like my carbon force extreme for hunting. It is sweet to carry, and very accurate, even if the bow wants to go as far as the arrow.<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
They do need to get back to the machined supreme style bows, with some new cam technology, to recapture the 3-d scene. And get some shooters back. It is all about the perks. Every guy out there winning in IBO,or ASA can do the same with a high country, they just need the reason to use one.

And, hopefully Mr. Mcpherson will make this years bows before next years models are introduced. I know being left handed is a pain when waiting for equipment, but when I used to shoot for HCA, it would take until may or june to get a left handed bow. Even the right handed bows would rarely ever ship on time.
It is not good business to break promises. If you cannot ship until next month, say it!
I know you dealers out there can really understand this one. The average guy ordering a bow, he thinks you spent his money on something besides the bow, when it does`nt show up as promised.

I am looking for good things to come from this new arrangement at HCA. Hopefully point # 1 will follow. When all credibility has been gone for this long, it would be pretty tough to get it back!

There have been a lot of products that used carbon over aluminum, ACCs were relatively late in the game. Ski poles, and ice axes were early in my experience, though I am sure there were others (leaving planes aside for the moment). ACCs are interesting in that they used this approach in order to get more accuracy/consistency. With the other products it was partly to deal with early hoop failures, and partly to deal with vibration. Ice axes are a nightmare if they vibrate, not only do they buzz your hands, but they can shatter the ice you are trying to gain purchase in. These days there are a lot of ways of dealing with vibration.

When it comes to these kind of what if scenarios, the thing is to have something in mind, and then ask what is the technology that would make it possible rather than starting with the structural solution in mind.

If, as has been said, the very light HCAs want to go for the gold along with the arrow, then that is all the more reason for them to build a C2 (or Patriot, Q2XL, or whatever).

Hey wait a second, McPhersen, I have heard that name before, so when does Mathews debu its carbon technology?

Everyone else seems to have large idler wheels or the CPS system for more level nock travel, except HCA. I like the split limb look HCA has, but how about more vertical movement to ease the handshock common with HCA. Carbon risers are great, but don't forget about the rest of the bow. I also like the look of the cutouts on the aluminum risers. How about cutouts on a carbon riser so they don't resemble cheap aluminum risers?
They need better marketing, and that includes keeping an up to date website. People are forking out cash for Patriots left and right already, at the same time there is no information on the web about the 2002 HCA line, including at their own site. Money spent on BowTech or Mathews before people even know whats in the new HCA line is gone without a chance.
Our local Cabelas is dropping them from their line because of too many bad limbs this year. They said they could sell better bows for less money. It's too bad because I like my UltraForce MX1, but I'd have to see changes in their line and operation before they'd go back to the top of my wishlist.



Edited by - Dacotah on 03/01/2002 23:40:57