"Reports" and legal issues??
 

On another forum where I posted my report of the Pro 38 the issue of legal responsibilities was introduced.

What is everyone's feelings regarding posting these type of "report" threads which detail some of the technical aspects of chosen pieces of archery equipment and legal liability?

For example, if I find a particular piece of equipment to be "less than good" and I post that then is it in some way illegal because it is a negative opinion of the product?

RE: "Reports" and legal issues??
 

I'm no lawyer, but believe our constitution allows us freedom of speech. As long as you are offering your opinions, and are not a competitor intending to damage the reputation and sales of your competitor, I am very sure you have no problems... Everyone is entitled to their opinion.

RE: "Reports" and legal issues??
 

Anyone can be sued for practically anything these days, but I don't think anyone should stand in the way of an honest evaluation of a product. As long as the evaluation is presented as your own personal impressions and opinions, I don't see how it could really be actionable. But then, I'm not a lawyer either.

That other site is part of a catalog sales business. Could be they are trying to get, or have, a dealership and didn't want the manufacturer getting upset? If so, that kind of censorship really tears down any credibility for their forum.

RE: "Reports" and legal issues??
 

Frank- you just said it. "OPINION"

There's NOTHING illegal about voicing your opinion. Today's lawsuit-crazy and political-correctness mentality has got people to be afraid of saying what they think.

Be an umpire- "call 'em like you see 'em", and let people take from it what they want.

RE: "Reports" and legal issues??
 

Public forums and honest people rule! Also, I love freedom<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>!
Keep up the good work guys.

RE: "Reports" and legal issues??
 

I'm no lawyer myself but I would think as long as you aren't being paid where is the liability, besides you guy's that do these reports do an awesome job, as as far as I can tell YOU pay for the bows you review, like someone else said, you are entitled to your opinion that's what America's all about no?<img src=icon_smile_cool.gif border=0 align=middle>

gromage1

RE: "Reports" and legal issues??
 

Frank 80% of the posts are peoples opinion on products, so if that is wrong than the lawers can jump in line and sue all of us. I think you are doing a good job and the person who brought up the legal issue is obviusly a bowtech fan. If I could only get you to do a mathews legacy report,I would have a much smoother drive &quot;down the road&quot; to happines.I hear they will be available in two weeks.

Edited by - newshooter on 02/27/2002 09:43:12

RE: "Reports" and legal issues??
 

Well, I see my comment about the site itself is out of line. I couldn't find the thread this morning and thought it had been pulled.

But, I have to admit to being a bit off today. My wife handed me my brand new AARP membership card this morning and I've been dealing with the shock of now being an OFFICIAL old fart.<img src=icon_smile_sad.gif border=0 align=middle>

RE: "Reports" and legal issues??
 

So Frank... if I call you a piece of S... I'm protected.<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle> (I couldn't resist) Anyway, I agree(free advice is cheap), you're OK. You gave an honest opinion and your technical evaluation of a product. What do you think Consumer Reports does. Same as you only you're better at it.<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle> As long as they can't show melicious intent to harm or something like that... you're OK. Now if you said, I'm going to do whatever I can to ruin this companies image and sales.... you're in trouble. Especially if they show your information is incorrect and purposely so. Keep writing.... &quot;FRANK'S CONSUMER REPORTS&quot;

P.S. You don't really expect a COF(Crotchetty Old Fart) like me to sit and read that whole book you wrote do you. I read every 40th word or so.<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle> As I read your report it states I cannot clean my chimney with this bow. Is that right?

Edited by - davidmil on 02/27/2002 10:13:48

RE: "Reports" and legal issues??
 

Frank-

Sorry if I caused your heart to flutter over on the other thread, but I've been on the receiving end of a suit in the past and know how easy it is to get embroiled in a legal battle. I've never gotten involved in these &quot;reports&quot;, even tho I have done lots over the years, I shoot in the same clubs and speak with Emery Loiselle often and know all too well what steps need to be taken to make sure the reports are well &quot;balanced&quot;. I do however in this case feel a good point was brought up about &quot;being paid&quot; or &quot;working for a company&quot;, and if you are not doing either then it only boils down to a personal preference/opinion statement.

However, I'm no lawyer, so do not know for sure. As stated on the other thread, I didn't mean to ruin anyones' day, and thought the report was very good! I'd say keep up the good work, but not knowing if I'd be sending you to the lions or not, I'll hold off on that until we get some concrete findings of fact. Good shooting, Pinwheel 12

RE: "Reports" and legal issues??
 

certain types of technology do have written legal notices about reviewsofthe product. software is an example, I am not sure about archery equipment.......interesting topic...

RE: "Reports" and legal issues??
 

If your not lying and you're telling the good along with the bad, then I don't see how you could lose a lawsuit. Unfortunately, I know there is nothing to prevent someone from sueing another over almost anything. It would be extremely bad press for a company to sue a customer for giving an honest opinion. It does happen, but those companies usually do it with their dying breath.

Edited by - Straightarrow on 02/27/2002 13:36:28

RE: "Reports" and legal issues??
 

Wouldn't they have to prove damage? I am generaly of the view that noboby pays the least attention to anything said on these kind of BBSs.

I think just as mater of what is right, and also what is prudent, one should not go out of one's way to put things in a nasty light. For instance I saw a Magnatec at a local dealer recently. I am just as happy as can be that we have milled Al risers today, and the days of cheap looking Magnesium risers are gone. I consider magnesium risers to be crap. On the other hand with the Magnatec, I had to look twice to be sure what it was. It looks very nice, It may be a good bow for certain people. And even though it is more costly, and conceivably more high tech to have a milled Al riser, I really can't prove such a bow works better.

If my review were to say all Mag. risers are crap, could I defend that in a court situation (just as an exercise, nobody is going to sue me I suppose). Could I defend it anyway? What is my evidence? Basicaly I think in the old days we needed a better product, we now have it in both the milled and cast products, we also have products that are cast and milled etc... Milled remains my preference. If I just say &quot;I really like a milled riser, for the following reason who could object? If we take the high road, and state what we know for a fact only, or if we are going beyond fact, present it as opinion, I can't see how that is a problem.

RE: "Reports" and legal issues??
 

I don't see it as a problem either and totally agree with that except… I think quite a bit of attention is paid to this and other boards on the net. Why do I think so? First, the fact that it's here and used by so many intelligent people says that people do pay attention to it, I know I do. And B- there was a tread about the warranty and dealership regulation policies of this same manufacturer on another board that got pretty intense. To the point that a big name online archery outfit began posts explaining their role in the situation and their policies and so fourth as well as defending itself. Then the real important man from behind the real big desk (CEO or PRES of Marketing of the manufacturer) got involved in the dialog and tried to contain the situation by addressing these concerns by explaining and defending the companies position and its policies. I'd say the people were being heard. There were a lot of guys real bent out of shape and getting real mouthy, and it turned into like a 3 part topic with a couple of hundred posts. He stated that they were evaluating the concerns and even gave some specific details that they'd address immediately. You have to respect that.
It all started because someone brought something to the attention of the message board members and someone else quoted a document concerning a confidential policy that the company intended to keep confidential. From that point on it was a free for all.
I don't condone unwarranted product or company bashing, but I do believe in the right to share information and &quot;opinion&quot;. It's a good thing.
And I'm pretty sure somebody's paying attention to us.

RE: "Reports" and legal issues??
 

I have been lurking around this site for quite some time, rarely replying. Lots of time spend reading some great informational posts. I hope the bow reports continue. I very much enjoy them. I started bowhunting about 18 years ago. I learned most of what I know the hard way. I did not have the luxury of a mentor. I just bought a used bow, taught myself to shoot, and went hunting. I proceeded to make every mistake known to man. I also spent countless dollars on &quot;can't live without&quot; equipment and accessories. Most of them were a complete waste of money and time. I very much wish there had been a place like this to gather information from so many experienced archers. I am not saying that anyone's opinion would keep me from making a purchase, but it would certainly make me aware of things I might not have thought about. I know there are plenty of folks reading these boards who are looking at information and not posting. They are gaining valuable insight. An equipment report may not make them change their mind, but might get them looking at things more closely, leading to better purchases, and ultimately, more enjoyment from the sport. Report on, guys. We need it.

RE: "Reports" and legal issues??
 

Chief,

I agree, what is said here, is paid attention to and taken seriously by manufacturers. Also, I am aware of a lawsuit that started as the result of what was said on an internet forum, very similar to this one. The company sueing did not win and was all but put out of business because of the bad press resulting from them sueing an unsatisfied customer for voicing their opinion. These types of lawsuits can happen, but are highly unlikely unless you are deliberately lying in an attempt to cause harm to another.

RE: "Reports" and legal issues??
 

Thanks for the replies folks. I wasn't too worried about the report that I wrote on the Pro38 because it was a 95% positive report on the product. The other 5% was just personal dislikes for the design. Now if I posted a report that was more negative...<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>

...and I like how Chiefheadhunter wouldn't say the name of the company that was in that thread over on the Bowsite....<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>. I am glad it was resolved in the end..and I think the whole thing was somewhat blown out of proportion to begin with.

Does that mean that if I say Hoyt should build a 33-35 inch TEC bow next year with a 7 inch brace height and a new hard drawing single cam (the Redline 2 maybe? <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>) then they might take it to heart and come out with one? <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_tongue.gif border=0 align=middle>

Who do I need to send that suggestion to? <img src=icon_smile_approve.gif border=0 align=middle>

...I guess one can only hope...:)

Edited by - PABowhntr on 02/27/2002 15:34:21

RE: "Reports" and legal issues??
 

While they're listening, I wanna bow that adjusts and pulls like a Darton CPS but has the speed of a BT 2 cam...

RE: "Reports" and legal issues??
 

Well put, CHH, and yes, alot of people DO read (sometimes very intently!)what is posted on this and other boards. I also read the one you are speaking of and yes, it got quite nasty. Question-- how much influence does a 200+ post thread like that have on John Q public? That is what the manufacturers look at, and if it is worth their while to comment or take further measures. That one we're speaking of definately got the big boys' attention, whether good or bad comes of it remains to be seen. The forum it was posted on could take some heat for that one, simply because they did not pull the plug before it got carried away.

This issue DOES get complex, and the line is so fine between things that sometimes it isn't easy to distinguish between &quot;opinions&quot; and &quot;bashing&quot; when stating that you do not care for something, and this is the area that must be tread lightly upon, IMO. I feel both Frank and Jeff give very non-biased accounts, but as others have posted, it doesn't take much to get someones' &quot;goat&quot; nowadays, especially when targeting a particular product model and anything is negatively stated. That one particular &quot;report&quot; could have influence on many Archers' decisions on the purchase of that particular single product, and depending upon how the report is structured determines how closely a manufacturer will look at it to decide if it warrants a comment, or more detailed scrutiny. Normally we generalize things into &quot;categories&quot;, like &quot;Twin cam&quot; &quot;solocam&quot;, &quot;carbons&quot; &quot;linecuters&quot;, etc., and altho we do speak of particular models from time to time, when making a &quot;full detailed report&quot; it means you are &quot;picking the bow apart&quot;, and with the further scrutiny you embellish, in turn further scrutiny will be embellished onto your posts. I believe this to be true, something to chew on anyway. Just my own thoughts, Pinwheel 12

RE: "Reports" and legal issues??
 

Interesting thoughts guys and good post, IMO<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>.
PA - probably about as good as the chance of a given company sending one of us free product or commission checks for basically selling their stuff for them. Some of us should be salesmen I'd say. <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle> I'd go as far as saying I'd almost always trust an opinion from any of our respected members before one givin to me by an actual salesman. That's probably a big reason why some are so effective. It makes sense that it could also work in reverse as well.

Edited by - chiefheadhunter on 02/27/2002 15:53:24

RE: "Reports" and legal issues??
 

I'm sorry but I cannot comment on this issue without my lawyer present........<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

Well you definitely have me thinking twice about throwing up a &quot;Report&quot; about some product that I really do think is crap.....I think I would have a hard time doing that anyway.

In fact you even have me second guessing doing any sort of further &quot;Reporting&quot;......I don't want to be that guy who gets sued for some nitwit spilling hot coffee on himself!
I agree that it would be an absolute suicide mission for a manufacturer to go after someone who is giving his OPINION on their product.

Disclaimer:

This post is the opinion of &quot;Matt / PA&quot; and in no way reflects the views and opinions of Huntingnet and it's sponsors. All rights reserved and unauthorized transcripts are strictly forbidden without the expressed written consent of &quot;Matt / PA&quot; and Major League Baseball. ...........<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>]

RE: "Reports" and legal issues??
 

I wouldn't think twice about posting a negative report. In fact, I think if I have negative report in the near future, I am going to post it ALL OVER ANYWHERE I FEEL LIKE IT!
Can you tell these idiots make me mad? Freedom of speech actually means something to me, and frankly I don't care who it pisses off.
It's ok for a company to lie about a new product and build it up to the public, but suddenly it's not ok for an honest/ negative evauluation???? WHAT?
I would like the idiot(s) who talk of legality issues. I realize that some of the people who &quot;introduced&quot; the legality issue, may just be others looking out for you. However, if there are ANY of these FOOLS reading now that would actually sue over an honest opinion please email me with some of your stupidity.
Furthermore, if a company got shut down and went out of business because of a negative report, what does that tell you about the company in the first place.
For anyone out there who may possibly be scared of voicing your honest opinion these days, it's only going to get worse if we give in. DON'T BE AFRAID TO USE THE FREEDOM OF SPEECH IN AN HONEST, SINCERE WAY!!!!

RE: "Reports" and legal issues??
 

P.S. Any typos in the above letter are due to the extreme rage I have for the unconstitutional laws and views of many people in this country today. Thank you.

RE: "Reports" and legal issues??
 

If I'm not mistaken, this is still the USA and we all have the RIGHT to free speech. DON'T BE AFRAID TO SPEAK YOUR OPINION. If we didn't have this right, these boards couldn't even exist. It makes me sad and angry to think that any citizen of this country would have to worry about this. Something is not right.

RE: "Reports" and legal issues??
 

Frank, I don't know about all the legal issues, but I know a couple of broadhead companies that are not realy happy with, me, but I also know some that are. The boards are for our entertainment, and information, nothing else. I know I am not making any money here!

TAKE YOUR KIDS HUNTING AND YOU WON'T BE HUNTING FOR YOUR KIDS

RE: "Reports" and legal issues??
 

Frank,

With any luck, maybe the bow companies will start paying you &quot;hush money&quot; to keep your mouth shut. Then you can buy all the bows and accessories you need. LOL.


Sag.

RE: "Reports" and legal issues??
 

Im with Razorhunter on this one. Frank all you have to do is buy a Mathews then you,ll never have a need to do another bow report.:)

RE: "Reports" and legal issues??
 

If a company claims potential sales were lost as a result of negative comments regarding their product, they have to prove intent on the part of the person making the statements to harm them. Unfortunately, opinion and interpretation is what law is. An unbiased, unsolicited opinion is just that. After all the glowing, positive hype on the Bowtechs, a few comments to the contrary probably caught some people off guard.

Phil.

RE: "Reports" and legal issues??
 

pdq......
BowTech has NOTHING to do with this discussion,really. My statement to you isn't a slap honest!....<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle> I'm just clearing the air as several people seem to think Frank's report was a BowTech slam, I think that got lost in there somewhere along the line.
This is simply a discussion on &quot;reports&quot; in general.
The only thing NOT glowing in Franks report of his new bow was that of &quot;Feel&quot;....not quality or performance. He said himself that 95% of the report was positive, and the rest was feel related, and not quality issues.
That could be your bow, my bow, or ANYBODY'S bow.

The point at hand is whether or not we are treading on thin ice if we post a &quot;Report&quot; that some manufacturer feels is &quot;Damaging&quot; in some way. Are we responsible in some way if they feel we are &quot;Hurting&quot; their sales in any way.
I'm with the Freedom of Speech crowd on this one.....if it's not a direct slanderous statement meant to purposely damage a manufacturer's credibility, then we should be fine......that said........

Disclaimer:

This post is the opinion of &quot;Matt / PA&quot; and in no way reflects the views and opinions of Huntingnet and it's sponsors. All rights reserved and unauthorized transcripts are strictly forbidden without the expressed written consent of &quot;Matt / PA&quot; and Major League Baseball. ...........<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>

RE: "Reports" and legal issues??
 

Well, I read through this entire post ready to enlighten some folks a bit -- but it appears pdq 5oh basically hit the nail on the head.

I completed some communications law courses while in pursuit of one of my degrees -- and before you ask, no, one of them is not a juris doctorate -- but we took to task issues such as these and reviewed them in light of the courts' findings.

Basically, what this question gets at is libel -- and a libel case can only be won if &quot;malicious intent&quot; is proven. But, and the main criterion of defense in any case such as this, is the TRUTH is always a winning defense. Bottom line: How can anyone prove you didn't FEEL the way you felt?

Another issue here is these are public companies, promoting and selling public products to be used BY the public; there's much precedent which has been set about companies or persons who willingly place themselves in the public arena not being afforded the same protection as can be expected by a private individual.

RE: "Reports" and legal issues??
 

Isn't libel for the protection of people not products. I don't really intend to say anything nasty about people. Aren't we talking about products here? Can you libel a product?


On the nobody pays attention stuff I was just being cheeky, though there is an element of truth to it in the sense that sure people read this stuff and respond, and if you can find any opinions that are in agreement you might well be lucky, so what is the net effect of any of this stuff?

I don't know who the most prominent person on this BBS is, but whoever it is their opinion doesn't mean %^&* to me. I couldn't pick them out of a line-up, I don't know what their agenda is, I don't have any way of knowing when they are telling the truth or not. This whole thing from my end is just a product of making up my own mind, as I hope it is for the rest of you. So if anything that influences me has to go through my own filters first how does anything said make a difference? I hope what makes it through the filters is the truth, and how is that actionable?

Don't get me wrong I have learned a lot, and I have liked a lot of the posters etc... But it isn't like we are all syndicated collumnists with big national reputations... Its actualy a lot more interesting than that.

RE: "Reports" and legal issues??
 

This is not ment to anger anyone. But why are people so foolish these day's. Lazy enough to sit on their A** and have just enough energy to sue someone they don't even know. Can they find nothing better to do besides make other's miserable. I report is a report is a report, ment to be taken lightly. People talk about freedom of this and freedom of that, then they put the sheeps clothing on and follow the flock. Why? because they can't find out for themselves if something is good or not, if it will suit them or not, I think it was davidmill that said it, but Im not sure, young lazy SO*******. It's true, why work, when you can get spoon fed crap until your old and dead . I am lazy myself alot, but I will say it as a hypocrite that beleives in work ethic, people have to stop the law suit's and get off their butts and learn about life. You can take someone's opinion, you can learn from it or disregard it, if it hold's no value in your life. But personally Frank, your an honest person, with good ethic's, you tell it how it is, and we repect you for it. If you say something about a product that you liked or disliked, we can read into it as much as we like, or disregard it and look for ourself. If someone want's to sue you, then the better sue us all. Ohh they wouldn't stand a chance in court. Good shooting all, and sorry if I got carried away.
Dylan

>>>>--------o-->

RE: "Reports" and legal issues??
 

Thanks for the honest and sincere replies folks. I appreciate them. I had no idea that this topic would generate so many passionate responses when I initially posted it. I thought I might get 3 or 4 responses and that is about it.

This issue has touched somewhat of a sore spot for me now.......because it would be rather hypocritical for a bow company to sue anyone over their honest opinion when half them &quot;fudge&quot; their advertised IBO speeds..<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>

RE: "Reports" and legal issues??
 

I have to agree with the &quot;freedom of speech&quot; approach, but unfortunately this approach doesn't always work with todays' society, and in some instances can cost us alot of money and grief. (which is admittedly sad[:() What with everyone being so &quot;sue-happy&quot; over every little thing,(over $20,000 in retainer fees, days lost in court, and misc. costs myself, all over something so ludicrous it'd make your head spin) and with the line being as fine as it is between things, I firmly believe that we have to take a closer look at issues such as these. Yeah it's nice to run around screaming you're an American, and that as one you WILL say whatever you want whenever, but that attitude quickly becomes humbled when the checkbook gets drained, I don't care who you are or where you are from. I originally mentioned this to Frank as a &quot;heads-up&quot;, as I see where it COULD possibly lead to trouble for him and others should they happen to get misinterpreted. Nothing more than that. If everyone feels they are safe, go for it, maybe if we had some serious legal consultant that could clarify this issue, I might even get into posting some of my &quot;full reports&quot; too! <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle> Anyway, it's a great place to mingle and share info, and I hope it stays that way. Good shooting, Pinwheel 12

RE: "Reports" and legal issues??
 

A golf board I visit is frequented by several lawyers. I posted the following message there:

The only other forum I visit on the web is archery related. Some very technical oriented folks there doing honest equipment evaluations, like we do here with golf stuff. The folks doing the evaluating are not being paid to do so, not hosts of the site, but rather are just individuals like you and me that are equipment nuts, like to try new things and share their thoughts...

There is a discussion now going on there as some feel that a person purchasing a bow, evaluating it, then posting their opinion could be sued by the manufacturer for
doing so. What's the law say?

I'll post the responses soon...

Thought I should add- If someone there doesn't like a product, it gets hammered, nothing is held back. To date the issue we're discussing here has never been a problem, and we have the ear of many, many top execs in the golf world...

Edited by - Rangeball on 02/28/2002 09:02:07

RE: "Reports" and legal issues??
 

Hi Matt, I merely mentioned Bowtech because that was the bow being reported on. When people offer their observations, unless malice can be proved, there are no grounds. Unfortunately, some courts will entertain friviluos law suits which incure uneeded legal fees. They generally go nowhere, but are a real problem.

Phil.

RE: "Reports" and legal issues??
 

Reply #1- Very good link that should set a lot of this to rest...

I don't know too much about that area of the law, but this seems pretty accurate:
http://builder.cnet.com/webbuilding/.../Law/ss17.html

Obviously if someone has a specific concern they should consult an attorney in their
jurisdiction.

RE: "Reports" and legal issues??
 

Does anyone think that an archery company or accessory manufacturer is going to sue &quot;the little guy&quot; for writing an internet review of a product?

What kind of P.R. would that send around the net? &quot;The big 'ol company sued Joe Consumer because they didn't like what he wrote about thier product...&quot; How do you think the general archery consumer would view that action?

And I don't think most archery companies are going to spend the time and $$$ to go after some average guy writing a review on the internet.

As long as you're writing an honest review that can be backed up- you have nothing to worry about.

And if writing these critiques DOES catch the attention of the manufacturer- GREAT! That means they may be forced to start listening to the consumer more (I know that some companies already do- but some do NOT). It means that my voice, your voice, whoever's voice, carries some weight in what we think. If someone is way outta line- they usually get called for it by others on the forum.

Edited by - Black Frog on 02/28/2002 09:46:03

RE: "Reports" and legal issues??
 

Right on BF. As someone else mentioned earlier, you can sue anyone over anything, well at least once. The real issue is what is the probability of it happening, and what is the probability of winning.

On the first point most archery companies ought to have something better to do with their time.

In the second point, it would be hard to win if the person writing sticks to fact, and is careful to keep opinions sensible and stated as such.

The guys on the golf group aren't going to know squat (just kidding). That has to be the biggest law suit free zone in the world: Judges play golf is one reason I have heard for the low level of suit success. You can be guaranteed of being in a loosing position if you shoot a motorist with your bow and cause a crash. Happens often enough in golf, and so far no convictions from what I last heard.

And 55#, next time you loose over a million dollars in income, and spend the rest of your life disfigured and in pain, we will see were you come out on this issue. Sure changed my read. On the other hand I agree if you were just getting at nuisance suits. The only alternative to real lawsuits is for the victim to pay for the negligence of the negligent party.

RE: "Reports" and legal issues??
 

Thanks for posting the link, Rangeball! It's good to see I rememberd most of what we learned in those communications law classes.