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What about bow reports?
Let me preference this by saying that I am not making any accusations to any magazines or reporters, but I was thinking about a point that Frank raised regarding bow reports in magazines.
In my view, some have some merit, while some are close to worthless. For instance, in one well known magazine with a well known reviewer, the bows are actually put through their paces and conclusions are drawn. Some merit there, I would say. In another well known mag, the information presented in their "reports" is basically the same info anyone can find in the bow manufacturers' literature with some thoughts thrown in, nothing much more than that. Not exactly the type of "report" I am looking for. What do you guys think? As to these boards and the reports presented here (i.e. Frank's recent experience, JeffB's and many others), I think they are great. They enlighten me to good and bad points of the bows in light of what the reviewers like/dislike in any bow and how that particular bow stood up to his/her criteria. I can read a report like that and really relate it all to my particular tastes. And, then I have the added bonus of being able to subsequently question the reviewer further if need be. Like I said, I think they are great. Keep 'em coming. Well, I'm rambling. Just some of my thoughts. I am sure you guys have more to add. Winger |
RE: What about bow reports?
I think my feelings on the subject were pretty clear before I edited them from my bow report...<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>:)
Norb's column is very technical and very informative. If you can read between the lines a little bit then you can understand where he is coming from with each bow. I didn't read his most recent report on the Oneida but I am sure his feelings aren't too hard to find...<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle> As for the ones in Petersen's....I think of them sort of like "infomercials"...the author presents all the good points of the bow.....but it is up to the reader to find the bad ones.... |
RE: What about bow reports?
Winger I see both sides to the dilemma. Publishers would be fools to cut their own throats.
That being said half the time I don't even bother reading a bow report in a magazine for the simple fact it doesn't really tell me anything that I can't find in the manufacturer's brochure. I can even stomach some brand bias as long as the facts presented are truthful. I applaud Five Shot, Jeff B., Matt Pa, Pa Bowhntr, and others on here who simply state the facts. I think the best part is listing the Positives AND the negatives in the product, then leave the personal preference up the the reader. Of course we will always have likes and dislikes, that is part of life and makes things interesting. It is true to some extent that one man's junk can be another man's treasure. But don't pee down my back and tell me it's raining. That is very insulting...not to mention I'm not into that golden shower thingy. <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle> |
RE: What about bow reports?
Thanx for the comps folks :)
As far as Norb goes, Frank hit the nail on the head..you have to read between the lines..he will often word something to sound positive and underlying that statement is the negative aspect. He's quite a fan of "odd" but funtional designs like Oneidas and Darton's CPS..his tastes are very far from mainstream, so you have to take it w/ a grain fo salt as well. Bill Winke, Jay Strangis,and Greg Tinsley USED to give fairly decent reports back in the early to mid-90's..but I think it's pitifully obvious now that even they are constrained by funds that could come out of their budget. Emery Loiselle used have some decent reports in B&A Hunting magazine..but in the last few years he did them,it was obvious from his writing he was not quite "with it" anymore...lot's of mistakes, mis-information, etc.. I'll be the first one to admit I have some bias in my reports..I usually have to like a bow in the first place to purchase it. Were the bows given to me, and there would be no reprecussions for writing what I feel, then there would be no bias. Frank's review was very good! He was clear up-front about what he personally likes and dislikes, made distinction between fact and opinion about the product, and then summarized why he thought it was a great bow, but not a great bow for HIM. Textbook example of how a review should be written for any product. and he had lot's of cool PICs! <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle> JeffB :) |
RE: What about bow reports?
This is a very, very good post, Winger. I give it 4 1/2 stars!<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>
The only thing I can't figure out is why I keep buying the #%$# magazines in the first place.<img src=icon_smile_question.gif border=0 align=middle> Avoid the inevitable until it is absolutely unavoidable! |
RE: What about bow reports?
4 1/2 stars! WOW, thanks, Joe! <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
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RE: What about bow reports?
In any given year there are hundreds of bows available, and only a few of them get reviewed, particularly considering the overlap. On that basis the mags can be forgiven for picking the ones their reader's will most likely be obsessing about. In most cases those aren't going to be bad bows.
Saying something bad about a bow isn't necesarily any more objective than saying something good. A lot of the more technical information in the better written articles is irrelevant anyway. You might find some of it so because you have a very different draw length; don't trust the synthetic stats part; don't care all that much about efficiency one way or another within a range of 1-2%, and so on. One of the problems with bows is that there isn't, and isn't likely to be a way of assessing accuracy, or shootability. There is the Hooter, but what that means to someone stuck holding the bow is hard to say (I am sure it could diagnose quality). I like it when a reviewer relates a bow to a trend. Why do we need short bows? Why do we need fast bows? or whatever. Also if they tell me when a product is hot. I may not want it, but it helps you seperate the top five options or whatever. Norb did a great Q2 Q2XL review last year that said a lot, and gave you a sense why the two close models existed. |
RE: What about bow reports?
This is the place I come for the truth. Keep the honest, no s*#t your opinion bow reports coming. You guys are worth your weight in gold.
Cargo |
RE: What about bow reports?
Jeff-
No offense, but let me fill you in about Emery Loiselle. The man has forgotten more than you or I will ever claim to know about the technical side of archery, I am sure of that. I have personally picked his brain on many occasions and learned much. He is admittedly getting "up there" in age and isn't quite as "spry" (good word, I think) as he used to be, but his knowledge far exceeds ANYONE who posts on this board IMO.(unless Norb comes in of course, and even then, it would be close, IMO) I have over 30+ years invested into this sport, and cannot hold a candle to his overall knowledge, tho I try. He may not be as "with it" as he used to be, but it has nothing to do with the man's overall knowledge of the sport and character, and should not be misinterpreted as such. (Felt I had to clarify that <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>) I think you also hit a great point about the funding for such reports and feel that this could be part of the case for lesser detail amongst different authors, especially with smaller publications. Norb no doubt has some decent funding behind him, therefore he can afford to make a much more lengthy evaluation. I feel that both yours and Franks' "reports" are well versed and have non-biased opinions and info, and you both should be commended for this.(good jobs!<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>) Unfortunately, I feel this may also start a "trend" with everyone coming up with a so-called "report" about everything just to say they did, and realistically they will be doing essentially what we are currently doing anyway on the boards--- giving our opinions, with no technical "reporting" of anything other than our opinion.(and this of course will be biased with some people) Unless we measure tolerances, speeds, hysteresis, draw force curves, etc, for a "technical report" in addition to giving an opinion and simple specs of a product, aren't we not simply doing what we were doing anyway with the messageboards and posts, without all of the "flash"? Don't get me wrong, I liked your "reports", but realistically I feel we should leave the "full" technical reports to those that have expertise in this field and are paid to do them, and stick to giving our opinions about products in posts about them as discussed.This will eliminate any "false statements" or "biased info" or any other mis-interpretation that could come from these "full reports" if everyone starts doing them. Just my own thoughts, Pinwheel 12 |
RE: What about bow reports?
PW12,
My comments regard Mr. Loiselle were not intended to be derogatory whatsoever, I was simply commenting on how his reports in the last couple of years he did them were not up to his previous quality. JeffB |
RE: What about bow reports?
Thanks for the clarification, Jeff! I assumed so, but wanted to make certain everyone understood the facts on Emery's knowledge, experience, and expertise in his field. Good shooting! Pinwheel 12
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RE: What about bow reports?
Ossage or others,
this is kind of off the topic but can you tell me if the bow report comparing the Q2 and the Q2XL that Norb Mullaney wrote is available on line somewhere. I have subscribed to Bowhunting World for several years. I am interested in reading the review for the XL and Norbs comparisons. I read the report last year and loaned it to a buddy who can't find it now. Thanks for your help! |
RE: What about bow reports?
Pinwheel, I think I have to disagree with you comments about starting a trend in the bow "reports". Their are several names on the boards that catch my attention whenever I see a post by them, Yours is one, that I make a point to read. I realy like these, non-technical reports, mostly becuase as much as I love reading Norbs reports, they do get a little boring. The fact is I want the best combination of features I can find in a bow. Norbs reports are valuble in this manner, but he still has to be careful about what he says. The "reports" here have to be taken with a grain of salt as well, but I honestly find more usefull info here than anywhere else. We can all read the spec sheets on a bow, but it is nice to get peoples honest opinions . I think as long as you take a look at who is doing the posting, their reputation on the board, their level of exsperience, etc, much real world useful information can be had. we just have to keep in mind the above factors, and the " I bought this bow, so now I will learn to like it" factor that all of us have had at one time or another went through. The fact of the matter is those who are most qualified to do a technical report, and post here, realy cannot do so becuase they make their living selling bows and servicing customers.
As much as I love the equipment aspect of archery, I am still a bowhunter first and formost, so when push comes to shove, all the technical stuff realy means nothing to me if I can't shoot my bow of choice, and I realy think that most people on here are in the same boat. I realy enjoy all of the "bow reports" posted here, I just read each one, consider the poster, and take it all in with a grain of salt. TAKE YOUR KIDS HUNTING AND YOU WON'T BE HUNTING FOR YOUR KIDS |
RE: What about bow reports?
5shot-
I agree with some of your thinking and find no issue with any of the reports that have been made SO FAR, but realistically, if we are giving away only our opinions, it cannot be construed as a "Technical report". People (especially newbies) can easily misinterpret these "opinions" for a true "report", as done by someone who has high-technical experience in this field. You are correct, there are some here that do have the knowledge and non-biasm to do such informative reports, but when everyone sees them and feels they too can do this, then jump on board doing the same thing, it becomes a free-for-all with little more than opinionated posts which essentially do what we normally do anyway in our discussions and posts on various topics, but at the same time confuses some by misinterpretation. This IMO raises heck with the "real" technical reports that are written by those experienced in this field,(whether sometimes boring or not <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>) and new or uneducated archers end up not knowing who or what to believe, simply because there are so-called "reports" now scattered everywhere with a million opinions in them, and little else. I'm all for discussing bows and equipment and opinions of, but not under the premise that it is a "full report", or that the author has great knowledge of the technical aspects of this particular piece of equipment, when it basically boils down to stating simple specs and a generalized opinion of the product. As stated before, wasn't that what we were doing here on the boards before these "reports" started anyway, without all of the hoopla? And yes, it will spread. It already has, we first had one, then two, now three and four posting "reports".IMO it will further progress, confusing new archers and those not familiar with each individual that is reporting. What's going to happen when we soon get "conflicting reports"? More confusion. As you stated, you look at the author, (as do I) but what about those that do not know who is who, what "reports" to read with non-biasm, and what to take as pertinent, truthful info, and what not? This is the dillemma we face, regardless of whether a person is a bowhunter looking for good, non-biased opinions or a target archer looking for technical info. And with more coming onboard with such "reports", it will grow ever-more confusing in the future, IMHO. After much thought on this subject I'll personally be keeping info and opinions contained to posts with questions regarding certain products, and in this way misinterpretation of products and true technical reports, biasm, and occasional mis-information can be kept to a minimum. Just my own thoughts, Pinwheel 12 |
RE: What about bow reports?
Pinwheel, You do bring up a good point about the new reader, those who don't realy know the ins and out's of the board. I never realy considerd that aspect. All and All I like the "reports", and hope they continue, but I too don't want to see everybody and their brother "jump in", but I do like to read others impressions on the new models coming out. To be honest what I would like to see is someone here get together with huntingnet, and work out somthing like norb does for bow and arrow. Maybe have a way to vote for what bow should be tested next month, that way the board would have more imput on what is tested. I don't know how it would be done, but I know it would increase the traffic here once the "word" got out.
TAKE YOUR KIDS HUNTING AND YOU WON'T BE HUNTING FOR YOUR KIDS |
RE: What about bow reports?
Well..after reading this thread I think I am done writing bow reports....Jeff and Matt can do them.
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RE: What about bow reports?
Sounds like symantics are getting in the way. Every "report" should not be percieved as a "Technical Report". A report is a written account, giving information on something. The report could be opinion, fact, an accounting or a combination of any of these. I think it's easy enought for a reader to determine what portions are opinion and which parts appear to be presented as facts. As far as the facts go, anyone can get these wrong, and opinions are like... well we know everyone has one. If someone is perceiving these opinions as having some sort of "technical" validity, then I think they are reading into it, more than what was intended. A beginner or a person new to this forum, should realize there is no guaranteed expertise that should be attached to anything written in an open public forum.
By the way, these reports are "true reports", for I'm sure the opinions are truthful. I like them and would encourage all to continue to report on their opinions of the equipment they use. I've always valued the opinions of users who aren't making money off of the sale of what they're talking about. On the other hand, I realize it's natural for people to justify a purchase they just made. No one wants to think they made a poor decision, so it's natural to defend and promote the product they've layed down their hard earned money for. This is why when it comes to purchasing a product, we should all test a range of products and then buy what we like. Keep those reports a com'n. :) |
RE: What about bow reports?
I've been watching this thread with interest..
As long as ANY person has an opinion, there will ALWAYS be some bias in a report... It doesn't matter if it's Norb, or Loiselle, or Strangis, or Winke, myself, Frank, Matt, Len, PW, 5Shot, etc... There is NO way to be impartial, unless you are a complete novice, have never heard a thing about the subject, and have no point of reference WHATSOEVER..I.E. someone hands you a bow, tells you how to pull it back and they shoot it.. People like Norb can do all the measuring they want. There is STILL opinion in the report. e.g. In his report on the Martin Fury years back he said that he felt the bow was quiet w/ very heavy arrows. Seems to me that's an opinion. What about saying that a bow is tougher to draw? That's an opinion too, I might find the bow to be a piece of cake to draw. His whole last section of each review ("general commentary") is largely opinion. As long as human beings are writing the reports there is no way you will ever get rid of any opinion or bias. Then there is the bias due to making a living. I'm not picking on PW here: I'm using him as an example..hope ya don't mind PW <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle> PW sells bows for a living, inlcuding BT and Merlin. It's no secret he loves those limey bows <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle> It's also no secret that he's had a problem w/ some of Bowtech's company policies. There was thread describing his feelings on the matter several months back. Conciously or subconciously that bias will come into play..it's human nature, and it doesn't make PW a "bad" person. As we have witnessed many times here, PW is quite the professional,and he does a VERY good job of minimizing any bias he might have, but it's still there..it is with ALL of us. I have a bias against certain brands..due to my experience as a dealer/shooter..HCA or Golden Eagle for example,and my bias comes out..but I don't go giving my opinion unless the subject comes up (like the "what will it take" thread). I could never ever give an unbiased report again about a HCA or Golden Eagle bow... It boils down to this: Can ANYONE give an honest unbiased opinion about anything? Only in the rarest of cases. My reports are part factual, and lot's of personal findings/opinion..I've never said otherwise. They are purely to relate my experiences & for entertainment. I will be selling "oxy-clean" and "spacebags" soon If I keep on the path I am currently on <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle> I don't give my reports to sell a bunch of crap or to keep my sponsors happy. I'm not affiliated with anyone in the Archery Industry anymore, and I don't run a shop. I like to write bow reports. I try to write them w/ sincerity, and I try to be thorough. I might actually be helping someone, or maybe for the next guy it's a load of crap because we are all different. I have no agenda. If people are not wise enough in this day and age to judge things based on their own wants/needs/likes/dislikes, then they have issues that need to be addressed by a mental health professional. Being that Frank is a moderator here, I can understand his reports being an issue if some laywer type wished to take it up. Since he is a representative of this site, then the moderators need to have some sort of guidelines provided to avoid any hassles. Enjoy the reviews for what they are and make up your own minds! EDIT: Typo-HE!! JeffB :) Edited by - JeffB on 03/03/2002 11:19:37 |
RE: What about bow reports?
Jeff-
I do not mind you using me for an example, however I don't feel that my bias comes simply due to the fact that I sell bows for a living. I sell many brands other than just BT and Merlin, and altho yes, I am partial to those "limey bows",<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle> it is not without good reason, and it has nothing to do with profit, I can make my living off of any bow on the market if I so choose, so therefore I am probably less-biased than most in this respect. Yes, I had my differences with BT awhile ago, but if those differences were ones that could not have been worked out, they would no longer be part of my sales platform, bottom line. Profit has nothing to do with any of the opinions expressed here by myself, other factors such as quality materials, quality design, quality customer service, fit, feel, ease of draw, recoil and shock, accuracy, and attention to the "little things" are what creates my biasm. And yes, we all have it, I agree 100%. So what do we do? Each jump on board with these "reports", only to have biasm affect the overall summation of each report in the end?(this would not be confusing, especially to a newbie?) Or, do we simply discuss highlights and problems within the messageboard system as we've always done, and leave the "reports" to those that do it for a living and have had many years experience in dealing with the biasm, and in this way eliminate any confusion from new archers as to who or what to believe? I firmly feel open discussion is warranted and that it makes for not only interesting but truthful (and sometimes heated! <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>) debates, but we do not need complete "reports" from everyone over the discussion of a product, IMO. You yourself have done a great job in your test reports, and as stated before I commend you on this.<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle> However as also stated, the "I wanna do that too" phase settles in, and then it becomes the free for all with everyone eventually becoming an "expert" with various "reports" and no means to an end. Do I think I could do these reports? Absolutely. Do I need to? No. Everyone gets the answers they need here anyway. Therefore as stated, for myself, I'll merely try to keep it within posts and questions concerning individual products, and in this way do my part to allow some sense of direction for the newbies to go when looking for a "true technical report". Which I think the above mentioned Professionals currently handle very well. Just my own thoughts, Pinwheel 12 |
RE: What about bow reports?
I would hate to see this forum limited to comments only from "experts", when concerning equipment. In fact, there is a lot to said for the opinion of an inexperienced user. Those of us, who are in the same shoes, appreciate their views. Ours are likely to be similar.
If someone gives their opinions on a bow, I don't see why their likes and dislikes should be any less important than the likes or dislikes of the "experts". I like reading about the opinions of all types of users. I would hope that everyone would feel comfortable about giving their opinions of equipment, on this forum. |
RE: What about bow reports?
Absolutely, Straightarrow, and I agree 100%. But that doesn't mean everyone should go around trying to give full "reports" on a product that could be misinterpreted or carry mis-information, or be conducted by a hugely biased individual that could either promote said product with false information to make it look good, or ultimately hurt the individual product without just cause. New and upcoming archers not knowing who wrote the report and what their credentials or objectives are could quickly become either confused with conflicting info, or worse yet, become also totally biased based on this mis-information. That is why I truly believe that we should keep comments and opinions limited to regular posting on the boards as individuals, and leave the full "reports" to those that have the least amount of biasm, with credentials and experience to back it up. Just my own thoughts, Pinwheel 12
Edited by - Pinwheel 12 on 03/03/2002 15:42:27 |
RE: What about bow reports?
Frank, You better keep writting these reports! You, Jeff, and Matt are the first few that come to mind that actualy shoot and handle enough bows every year to make good comparisons, and not have to worry about feeding your faimly if someone doesn't like what you say.
TAKE YOUR KIDS HUNTING AND YOU WON'T BE HUNTING FOR YOUR KIDS |
RE: What about bow reports?
Frank:
If you are no longer going to post reports for the board, could you still e-mail them to those of us who are really interested in what you have to say? I understand and appreciate both points of view, which makes it even more confusing. Anyone with the experience of Pinwheel or Len has my complete attention and respect when they have something to say. I just also enjoy reading about all of the "toys" that you more "agressive" bow buyers have acquired. Heck, you guys seemed to be having so much fun, that you convinced me to spend a few bucks and try the MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM (still can't say it) bow. I agree that filling this forum with bow reports by almost everyone would not be for the best, but I would hate to see them end completely. I hope short, boring, humorous comments are still taken as intended though.<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle> Avoid the inevitable until it is absolutely unavoidable! |
RE: What about bow reports?
At least untill such time that the technical experts post their reports on on this or other boards and STICK AROUND to answer questions and explain their technical info/opinions I for one hope they keep on coming from the ones that have been doin such a good job on them. I LIKE UM. Keep them coming guys.
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RE: What about bow reports?
Why do people buy bow's? Friends, advertisment's, Pro staff? I am 21 years old, and I read alot of the reports on here. They don't confuse me very much, they also don't affect me enough to buy a certain bow because of it. The only thing to get confused about with archery, is your own skill level, and perception of equipment. Local pro shop's can say what they want to sell a person a bow, or arrow's. If you go outside of the system, like to this BBS forum, this is where the enlightenment happen's. You can buy the best bow in the world, and beleive that you will shoot at a world class level. You could indeed do it, with supreme amounts of effort. Alot of people have to be realistic when they are looking for a bow though, the only way to be realistic is to understand what equipment you are putting in your hand's, and knowing how to use it affectively. I've seen people with alot of money, or an archery shop, buy bow after bow after bow. They will praise it up and down, then when it comes time to put the chips down on the table, it's the bow's, companies fault when they can't compete. Most every bow is as good as any other, with the acception of a few higher end companies. Not every archer is as good as every other archer.
I watch listen sometimes, to my co-worker trying to sell a bow, he will say anything to sell it. For example a person wanting to get into archery, comes into the store, he is an older gentlemin, I watch and listen as he is shown a Champion stratus, and then a mirage 33. Almost different end's of the spectrum, but delt with as though they are the same type of bow. Not knowing the brace heights, I check them out, Mirage 7" from the book, who know's what it is really. Stratus I beleive was 7 1/2". Also looking at the extreme reflex in the riser, the Mirage 33 is not a begginers bow, Im sure I would get agreement on this. But I am only a worker @ this place, I can not step in the way and say jeez man what the heck are you doing. A person with 2years experience, that sell's equipment like he has 10. Now that is confusing. I would much rather get my info on here thank you very much. I trust people on here, that I don't even know, more then people I work with. This has to tell you something. I send people to this site, to read up. You see, Jeffs reports are informative, no BULL. He say's what he likes about it and what he dislikes and thats it. Same with you Pinwheel, you tell it how it is, you see we all have seperate opinions on here, and that's the only true way, to not be blinded by lies and deception about equipment suitabliliy, and to know whats going on in the archery world today. I bought a riser because of your opinion Pinwheel, and many others about Merlin quality, and Ben has also proved to be a very good person to do business with. After all this babbling, I think the point I am trying to get at here is, this place needs the reports, the opinon's, the arguments for sake of. For all of the posts, and threads and topics, we are doing just fine, and alot less confusion on here, then I know of in the pro shops and large sports stores. Thats my thoughts, Good shooting. Dylan >>>>--------o--> |
RE: What about bow reports?
Since we are giving our opinions here, I will give a small portion of mine.
First off, there was a time when I would buy the magazines to read bow reports by Emery and Norb. But, after I had shot 50 different bows, set up 1000 different bows, and shot in hundreds of 3-d and 600 rd. tourneys, it became very apparent to my feeble mind that draw force curves, hysteresis, and measuring tolerances were absolutely meaningless to me! And it was obvious to me that these things were basically meaningless to others, as well. How many reports of Norb and Emery can you find that say a certain bow tested very high in their testing, yet not one top shooter in any type of archery competition could get them to perform to a desired level. You need look no farther than the early days of really competitive 3-d, when high country dominated. Burly, Ulmer, Chappel, and some others shot those bows fairly well, I would say. If you would have checked tolerances on those bows(and I did) you would have sworn that they would not shoot two arrows into the same target, let alone the same 12 ring. Some bow company`s had tolerances that were infinately better, yet if they were capable of shooting any better, I never saw it done at the IBO or ASA on a pro level. Nor at the state target rds. Don`t get me wrong, I really enjoyed reading those indepth reports from those guys, and it seemed that both of them were really interested in bringing forth the facts. But again, IMHO those facts, as accurate as they may be, were basically meaningless when it comes to a human being toeing the line, and firing at whatever target tickled their fancy. My personal opinion, I get way more enjoyment reading the reports put out here by Frank, JeffB, Matt, and some others. These are guys doing it because they live it! They do it for nothing more than the enjoyment of possibly helping some fellow archers. Hey, that`s just my opinion.:) |
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