Single Cams vs. Hybrid Single Cams
 

What is wrong with today's bowhunting consumers?

I know a whole bunch of you readers are die hard ad reading Mathews fans. Heck, I was also one too. I work at an archery pro shop and have spent much of my life there. (I can shoot any bow that I want) Why do so many archers prefer traditional single cam technology? Here is why I think they do.

1. The profit mark-up on Mathews for dealers is about 3 times what a Hoyt is.
2. Mathews spends more on advertising/marketing than any other company.
3. They once came out with an innovative product and consumers get tunnel vision.

Anyways,

the fact of the matter is traditional single cams do not provide level nock travel.

Hybrid Cam & 1/2's do. AS do dual cam bows.

This doesn't mean that single cams are not accurate becasue they can be with a good shooter, they are just not as accurate as Hybrid's.

I am talking about shooting them off of a machine.

A single cam string stretches a lot more than a Hybrid cam's string. I'v seen single cam strings stretch as much as 1 1/2 inches. Thanks Zebra!

In my opinion single cams are on their way out and hybrids are in.


Let me know what you guys think. I need some traditional single cammers to beat up on!

RE: Single Cams vs. Hybrid Single Cams
 

man, are you just trying to start a flame war or what?

i hope you brought your fire extinguisher...

[&:]

RE: Single Cams vs. Hybrid Single Cams
 

Okay, I'll bite. :D

In my opinion single cams are simpler and more likely to stay shootable, even if the string stretches a bit (which isn't a concern with a well made string today). Bowhunters want simple, because they know very little about the technological part of this industry.

An even more important fact is that this has never been proven to be important. There is also a profound disagreement in how one should go about measuring this.

Not necessarily. And although some might, what's the point? I've seen these supposedly level nock travel bows, with such poor cam alignment that the arrow is doing anything but moving in a straight line while it remains on the string. There are many factors that go into making a bow forgiving and no one has shown me that "straight and level nock travel" is anything more than a minor issue.

I respectfully disagree. When shot out of a Hooter Shooter, a completely out-of-tune bow, of any type, will repeated shoot the same arrow repeatedly into the same hole.

This is a non-issue to anyone who wants to make it that way. A well made single cam string will not stretch 1/16" in 20,000 shots with today's materials. I've made them and personally taken the measurements to come up with these numbers.


I doubt it, but we're all welcome to our opinions. ;)


I currently shoot a hybrid, but you can take your best shot anyway! :)

RE: Single Cams vs. Hybrid Single Cams
 

I'm short on time, but I can say after owning a couple dozen singles (actually probably closer to 35 or so), and nearly a dozen hybrids (whether CPS type or C.5 type) and god knows how many duals, I still prefer the single cam overall. Biggest reasons? less recoil/vibe and noise regardless of platform, and they "hold" better for me. They are not perfect, but overall I prefer them.

Second, you are incorrect in your statement about nock travel, several single track idler/ dual feed singles have straight and level nock travel. Mathews SL & HP cams mostly, and PSE's NRG. Whether tested static in a machine or dynamically w/ high speed video (as Straightarrow says, there is conflict about which method is more "accurate"). C.5 type hybrids usually do not show straight and level nock travel. Some CPS type cams will show less than optimum nock travel depending on how they are set.

And if you don't shoot a string loop the point is moot. No-one who shoots under the nock is getting straight and level nock travel.

Finally, limbs have just as much to do w/ nock travel as anything. I suspect a great number of folks shooting CPS hybrids are not getting perfect nock travel either because of less expensive /poorly matched limbs.

I don't know...you are a prime example though...worried about berating others' choice of equipment instead of shooting your own.

Might wanna get all your ducks in a row before you start trolling. :eek:

RE: Single Cams vs. Hybrid Single Cams
 

Single vs hybrids vs duals... YAWN

Where's an Onieda dealer? [8D]

RE: Single Cams vs. Hybrid Single Cams
 

who really cares? They all can shoot great....better than we can.

Anyway this topic has been beat to death. I shoot single cams because I like the way they feel & shoot better than any other cam I have shot. I think thats all that really matters.

RE: Single Cams vs. Hybrid Single Cams
 

Hey Jeff B.-

I don't know...you are a prime example though...worried about berating others' choice of equipment instead of shooting your own.

Might wanna get all your ducks in a row before you start trolling.

Your ignorance blocked your vision to see the fact that I wasn't berating others' choice of equipment, but rather bring to light the inaccuracies of traditional single cams. After all, I think consumers have a right to know the truth about the technology they are buying. Lord knows, the MAthews 30 page ads won't tell them.

And I don't even know who the joker is that said that single cams shoot smoother than any other platform out there. (Oh yeah, that was you Jeff!) You mean to tell me that A Mathews Outback shoots with less vibration than a Hoyt XTech with everything else being the same. Let me guess, you are voting for Kerry aren't you?

Our democatic friend also says-

Finally, limbs have just as much to do w/ nock travel as anything. I suspect a great number of folks shooting CPS hybrids are not getting perfect nock travel either because of less expensive /poorly matched limbs

Do you also suspect that single cammers are succeptible to this? Probably not, huh?

Until MAthews starts putting pre stretched Stone Mountain strings on their bows, excessive string stretch will continue to be a problem. Remember, they do not give you the premium string. Neither does Hoyt, but then again their string is shorter so it is not prone to stretch as much.

Again, without all of the variables that you guys like to throw into the mix, Any string that is released closer to the center of the string itself with symetrical (tuned) cams will produce straighter nock travel. Any respected technical advisor agrees with this statement.

It seems to me that there would be more of a load on the lower limb than the upper on a bow that has a cam on the bottom and a wheel on the top.
Like JeffB says, if one limb is weaker it would cause uneven nock travel. With the load on the limbs of a single cam not balanced, you get uneven nock travel.

*****NEWS FLASH*****
Doesn't it also seem unusual that Hoyt shooters have already broken 3 tournament records with the Cam & 1/2? I know you are going to say that it is just the shooter, but look at the ratio of Hoyt to Mathews shooters. Hoyt has proven they are far more efficient at winning tournaments with the Cam &1/2. No one can dispute this.


If you feel that this topic has been beat to death, then do not reply! There are a lot of other forums that you can entertain yourself on.

RE: Single Cams vs. Hybrid Single Cams
 

Really? And yet Hoyts higher end bows cost the same as Mathews higher end bows for the consumer?[:o]

Other than putting them (Mathews) at the top in sales and obviously annoying some people , what does that have to do with solo cam -vs- hybrid cams?

So I guess you think all these consumers with "tunnel vision" just buy Mathews because of the ads? Or maybe just because it seems everyone else is shooting a Mathews? Do you think all Mathews owners just go out and buy any Mathews without testing other bows? Wake up!

Really? Well drop my drawers and smack my willy! I would have guessed my 3d scores would have dropped after selling my Hoyt double cam and switching to the Mathews , why with all that "level nock travel" I gave up , and my scores improved.[:o]

I've seen the Icon , Ovation , Mq1 , LX , and the Outback shoot thru the same hole from the HS , I cant imagine being any more accurate than that. Now if only we could use the "machine" for hunting.;)

I've had double cam strings stretch on just as much!
Thanks Winners Choice for eliminating that headache!

Your certainly entitled to your opinionated...ooops..opinion.;)

I dont think much of it anymore to tell you the truth. Ive heard it countless times from other Mathews bashers , it's getting pretty boring!:(

Likewise! Other forums , most of which I assume you've been banned from?:D



Just exactly what is a "traditional single cammer"?

RE: Single Cams vs. Hybrid Single Cams
 

X-MAN.

If you read Jeff's reply again he said.

That in HIS experience that the singles held better for HIM and that HE prefers them.

I see no reason for an attack on Jeff when he was is talking about HIS experience with the different bows he has owned.

Just remember you are entitled to your opinions as others are entitled to theirs.

We dont need members flaming other members.

RE: Single Cams vs. Hybrid Single Cams
 

Hmm..I guess there's a fine line between "bringing to light inaccuracies" and "beating up on single-cammers" :eek:

I have an X-tec, and an Outback on the way. There is no doubt apples to apples the Outback has less recoil. Vibration is another ball of wax, and the X_Tec has slightly less, not less enough to discount the fact that even with Xtreme limbsavers it has more recoil than the Outback (and it has less to do with the cam than the limb angles). IME with Darton, Hoyt, and Martin hybrids, Any high end Mathews will have less recoil and has substantially less vibe than Martin & Darton regardless of cam style.

You need some work on your trolling, your inexperience shows here youngin':eek:

Absolutely, any bow is. If you would take a minute and think (try it, it works wonders) my point was folks who make a big deal about getting level nock travel with thier "superior" cam system (kinda like you) probably are not getting it.

:eek: BS! Hoyt strings are absolutely pitiful. Although I'm no big fan of Zebras, I'd take a Zebra over the garbage Hoyt puts on thier bows anyday of the week. End and center servings are horrid on Hoyt strings and they twist and twist and twist. That said I think both companies need to follow in BowTechs shoes and get with the program as far as strings are concerned.

Yes. "straighter". But it doesn't guarantee straight and level. You should test the C.5 some more, because for the most part it ain't got straight nock travel, let alone level. With knowledge and some work, you can make it better, but Hoyt's initial C.5 ads are as full of BS as the initial Mathews ads.

Not in all cases, just like not in all cases are hybrids giving you straight and level nock travel.The design of the cam has more to do with nock travel on a single cam all else being equal. the vast majority of modular singles exhibit poor nock travel (static), and non module cams show better (static) nock travel than any C.5 I've seen and are as good or better than most dual cams. You need to do some more testing.

*****NEWSFLASH*****

This is the same BS most people cry about with Mathews, but now that Hoyt is having a good year, I guess that doesn't matter :eek: Pot, meet the kettle.

And a sincere Thank You for pointing out that it is the bow that wins all the tournaments, and not the shooter. I cannot wait to buy another Hoyt so I can start whipping Hopkins' A$$ without any actual improvement in my own ability:eek: Anybody who really know anything about archery does not attribute cam type to shooting prowess, no more than Tiger Woods is only as good as the clubs he uses. :Yawn:

Agreed, why don't you go find one?

For a newbie you sure are making a lousy first impression. Thanks for telling all us regulars here to take a hike so you can piss in our pool :eek:


EDIT: BTW, I'm not going to get into a pissing match with someone who doesn't have all his/her facts straight..it's a waste of my time and everyone elses. You should check out ArcheryTalk, there's plenty of other people there who would love to argue with you who don't have their facts straight either....birds of a feather, and all that.

RE: Single Cams vs. Hybrid Single Cams
 

Personally I prefer the zero cam bow,but that's just me:D.Wait, what is that I hear???? Sounds like someone whacking a dead horse:)


CB

RE: Single Cams vs. Hybrid Single Cams
 

X_BOX, I don't see your post as anything more than a veiled Mathews bash. I think you'd find that once "properly" set up, any top line bow (and mid line) would shoot much better than you can. How important is straight nock travel, really? To some it's a big deal. To others, not. It may make tuning more or less a chore, but in the end, the arrows can be made to hit where they should. BTW, getting personal with people because their opinion doesn't line up with your bash is not putting anymore credence into your statements.

RE: Single Cams vs. Hybrid Single Cams
 

Yow, this is a heated debate! [&:]

Let me throw this into the mix {then I'll run for cover....} I still like this style of bow. What is wrong with an old dual cam 41" ATA, with the tear-drop steel cable system?

My bow string is the B50 dacron and is still 35" and hasn't moved/stretched/shifted at all, probably since 1996! Arrows are common Easton XX75's in #2315. Release is a Tru-Fire Magnum.

All I gotta say is that this is a stable, balanced, deadly accurate bow. Eventually, I'll upgrade into a faster single cam type of bow, but for now, this old PSE Edge Series 1000C lefty bow still works great. [8D]

Butch A.

RE: Single Cams vs. Hybrid Single Cams
 

I disagree. In my opinion we'll always have a choice between single, dual and hybrid cam bows.

RE: Single Cams vs. Hybrid Single Cams
 

OK, let's see. First post seems like it is intended to start an argument. Basically no information in profile. Insults people on this board who have proven they know what they are talking about and have been very helpful to others. And spouts info like an expert, except for the fact that most of it is either opinion or unproven.;)

Yeah, chase us out and pi$$ in our pool![8D]

Good thing you seem to know enough that you will never need anyone's help here.;)

Butch: I agree, that bow will still do a great job. Good luck hunting this year.:)

RE: Single Cams vs. Hybrid Single Cams
 

Butch, in a lot of ways I prefer that kind of bow over what we've got to choose from today. Yes, they're slow as molasses in winter compared to today's bows, but they're simple, rugged, easy to work on without a press, easy to tune and they STAY tuned. Good bow!

RE: Single Cams vs. Hybrid Single Cams
 

Thanks Arthur P and Joe PA....

I brought my bow into the shop last week for a check-up. The guys checked it all over, put it on the scale, put in the press to removed the nock point and serving, etc... They used squares and other alignment tools, and believe it or not, the bow is still square and true. The serving was just worn, that's all. Since I don't use a string loop, they recommended just replacing the serving and set it all up for me again. This rugged old bow has plenty of life left in it and is still in great condition. Lastly, they checked the peep alignment and checked me out at full draw and everything is all set perfectly. Old style dual cam bows are built to last, that's for sure![8D]

Butch A.

P.S. My bow is set at 65# and 65% letoff and 30" draw, and it will stay tuned like that for years.

RE: Single Cams vs. Hybrid Single Cams
 

X_MAN - whats the deal dude? what is your overall point? Can you prove without a doubt that a Hybrid is vastly superior? If so state the facts, till then what can you prove? Archery & equipment is subjective. I like single cams, hes I have shot all the other styles as well. I still shoot a single cam. Why? because for me it is the best system I have found.

I don't even know why I am fooling with a reply. any amount of brain power used to reply to your post is really not worth it.

[&:]

RE: Single Cams vs. Hybrid Single Cams
 

Thanks X-Man now that I can see your ignorance in black and white I will know to ignore any of your posts or advice. I like all kinds and brands of bows.

1. The profit mark-up on Mathews for dealers is about 3 times what a Hoyt is.
2. Mathews spends more on advertising/marketing than any other company.
3. They once came out with an innovative product and consumers get tunnel vision.

How do any of the above relate to the choice between one or two cam bows? How do you know how much any particular bow company spends on ads? They are all privately held and do not release any figures on ad spend.

RE: Single Cams vs. Hybrid Single Cams
 

I would like to thank the guy that started this post. Although it looks to me like he was trying to start an arguement and when he started to get his lunch ate he even had to throw in a political red hearing.

That being said, I have been able to gleen a lot of info from this post, as I am just getting back into bow hunting and am looking for a bow to purchase. I am a total newb when it comes to what is out there on the market now. My father, who has hunted with a recurve all his life and kills deer religiously with a recurve would call all these new bows "contraptions". I myself still have an old browning recurve in the closet that I used to shoot regularly and hunt with when I was a kid in the 70'S. I remember how religiously I had to shoot that bow to maintain hunting accuracy and how easy it was for me to transition to a dual cam PSE thunderflight in the 80's. Unfurtunately it was stolen in the late 80's (man I loved that bow). With a heavy work schedule and not much time to shoot I gave up bow hunting and just stuck to muzzleloader and rifle hunting. I am now living in state where the bowhunting season is long and liberal and I want to start bowhunting again. I am not a pro and I get confused with the single cam/hybrid cam and all the other new stuff that is out there. Can some of you regulars ( that obviously know what you are talking about) please nudge me in the right direction on what types and brands to consider? I am looking to spend about $400 for just the bow and I will outfit it with accessories as I go.

Thanks for all the helpfull info in this post.

RE: Single Cams vs. Hybrid Single Cams
 

dino195.

Welcome to the board.

The best thing I can reccomenend you to do is visit as many Pro Shops as you can and shoot as many different brands and models that you can.

Then pick the one that feels the best for you and your shooting style.
Because what feels right to me is probably gonna feel like crap to you;)

RE: Single Cams vs. Hybrid Single Cams
 

Is that all? And you worked on a pro shop. I've seen much more stretch then that.

How is that for the bow though?
Reminds me of my jennings carbon extreme. Very nice bow.

RE: Single Cams vs. Hybrid Single Cams
 

Is that all? And you worked on a pro shop. I've seen much more stretch then that.

How good is that for the bow though?

Reminds me of my jennings carbon extreme. Very nice bow

RE: Single Cams vs. Hybrid Single Cams
 

None of it really matters as much as you think it does. I own a Darton with the cps cams and a very forgiving configuration. I also own a Bowtech mighty Might VFT with a single cam and short ATA. The bowtech is more accurate than the darton, go figure. I guess it just fits me better and I shoot it better. It's not the bow, it's the guy pulling the string 98 percent of the time. I have seen exellent archers shoot VERY well with old poorly tuned bows. I have seen avarage archers shoot like crap with perfectly tuned expensive bows.

The only real advantage I have seen lately is the effeciency of the current bows. My new bow at 26 inches and 53 lbs shoots faster than a 10 year old bow with an inch more draw lenght and 20 lbs more draw weight. Plus it's lighter, quieter, has less recoil and vibration. Not to mention the grip is waaay better. This is good news for little people like me.

Paul

RE: Single Cams vs. Hybrid Single Cams
 

Lots wrong with the old tear drop steel cables!!! They will rust and break at the tear drop, which happened to me several times on the 70's and 80's bows that I owned. Of course it would have helped if I wasn't shooting 80 pounds most of that time also. I also had lots of limb problems back then too. Today's bows are better constructed and engineered to last a very long time and regardless of the cam system, will shoot better than you can hold it. Most of today's cam systems are marketed to sell bows, plain and simple. The cam system is the the item that will make or break sales for most bow companies IMO. Good luck with your's