Straight bow-arm vs. Bent bow-arm
 

I read a passing comment in a recent thread that implicitly indicated that the person who made the comment has bought into the "bent bow-arm" method of shooting a bow.

The thread subject was actually about why the shooter was experiencing forearm contact from his or her bowstring. Eventually, he/she made a statement indicating (paraphrased) that he/she knew the bow-arm should be relaxed and not fully straight. A few readers reinforced the shooter's belief my saying that the bow-arm should be bent.

Additionally, a reader or two seemingly suggested that bending the bow-arm was wholly or partly the cure for string slaps to the bow-arm. Not only do I not endorse the bent bow-arm shooting form to be proper form, bending the bow-arm to prevent string slap would be a Band-Aid, would mask the actual cause, and would introduce new shooting problems.

I have read articles in which the writer casually recommended the bent arm form but did not explain why he/she believed the bent arm method is proper form. I have read articles in which the writer advocated the bent arm form and attempted to give brief reasons why the bent arm form was important. I have been around a few shooters who use the bent arm method, try to explain why the method is proper form. In none of the cases in which a bent bow-arm method was insinuated or said to be proper form was I ever clear or convinced that the method makes sense and contributes to accuracy.

I am curious and would like to read explanations as to how the bent-arm evolved and why some believe the method is proper shooting form or is not proper shooting form. I have many reasons why I believe some shooters shoot with a bent bow-arm and why I consider the bent arm method to be detrimental to form and accuracy, but I am going to sit back and read awhile to see if others that do not support the method for some of the same reasons I do not, and to see if someone who does support the method can clearly explain and justify the "method."

RE: Straight bow-arm vs. Bent bow-arm
 

The bent arm IMO is NOT the best "Form" for accuracy and Bone to Bone contact in the bow shoulder.

BUT for bowhunting It is the BEST way to do it - because of clothing issues - and the need for speed;). And when 90% of bowhunters I see have there bow shoulder way to high - the straight arm looses its advantage. might as well bend everything:D[:-]

RE: Straight bow-arm vs. Bent bow-arm
 

Truth be told, I personally strive for low bow shoulder and tensionless comfort. Once I arrive here, I shoot my best. No idea if my arm is classified as straight or bent.

Definitely not pushed straight out stiff as a board, but not overly bend either. Just, firm and relaxed... :)

RE: Straight bow-arm vs. Bent bow-arm
 

I am not educated on form enough to give an opinion.

I would like to hear everyone else's though.

My wife broke her elbow a few years back and can't straighten her arm all the way out since. She is just starting to get into shooting a bow and I was thinking maybe she would need a crossbow to hunt with?
If bent arm is good form then someone else might have to teach her because I shoot straight arm.

RE: Straight bow-arm vs. Bent bow-arm
 

I've got a feeling you may be refering to a post of mine. If you are I'll explaine a bit better, if not please excuse me. I was under the impression that the individual may have a dl that is too long for them. If this is the case and they are stretching to make the draw this could be causeing the issue. It has happened to me in the past.

By shortening the dl and bending the bow arm the issue is remedied.

RE: Straight bow-arm vs. Bent bow-arm
 

Once again like many archery topics, the terminology can be different depending on how you're describing it.

An arm can have a sliiiiight bend to it, yet still be in a good bone-on-bone form. Everybody's arms are a bit different, and have slightly different makeup structure.

A straight-out hyper-extended arm is no good either. And an arm that is too bent can be very inconsistent and hard to reproduce the same way every shot. Anything that depends on muscles to hold form is a thing that leads to inconsistencies in form and shot execution. Ideally (IMO) the only muscles you really want to use are the ones required to keep the bow up and on target, and muscles to keep the bow at full draw while aiming and then start applying a good backtension for a clean release.

The more muscles you involve in shot execution, the more inconsistent you'll be. Of course that's a general statement and there's always exceptions. I've some very good shooting from guys who's form was so whacked that I would swear would be all over the place. But that rule generally seems to hold water. Bone-on-bone contact is fairly consistent, your bones don't change size from shot to shot and it's much easier to reproduce bone on bone placement. Muscles holding a position (like a really bent bow arm) are inconsisent, and much more prone to fatigue and form deterioration over time.

RE: Straight bow-arm vs. Bent bow-arm
 

Personally, I have always shot better with a bent elbow. During the follow though, my bow arm goes slightly foward.

RE: Straight bow-arm vs. Bent bow-arm
 

As I said, I will sit back and see if those that do not advocate the bent arm do not for all or some of the same reasons I do not, and to see if someone can clearly explain and justify the method. However, in the meantime I'll be a devil's advocate.

"BUT for bowhunting It is the BEST way to do it - because of clothing issues…."

If the bent arm method is not good form, and is not good for accuracy, how can the method be the best way for bowhunting, regardless the clothing issue? In archery, bad usually remains bad and can become worse when trying to adapt a bad method to correct a shooting issue.

adams: I don’t want to debate the issues and comments in the other thread, but if a too long draw-length is the cause of a particular problem, and you adjust the draw-length of the bow and the arrow to a measured draw-length while having a bent arm, are you truly adjusting the bow and arrow to your actual draw-length?

If you adjust everything while drawing without a bent arm, but then use a bent bow-arm to shoot, are not you now technically using a shorter draw-length than what you based your tuning and setup on?

Black Frog has raised a good point; just how much bent is bent? That is a point I have never been clear about when shooters advocate a bent bow-arm. To me, bent is bent, no matter how slight.

RE: Straight bow-arm vs. Bent bow-arm
 

Then put me down in the bent arm camp, for the reasons BF alluded to above.

RE: Straight bow-arm vs. Bent bow-arm
 

You can get away with some fairly bad form (really bent arm, twisted around in a treestand, awkward angles, etc...) and still be able to hit the boiler room pieplate consistently out to 30 yds. But doing those same things will not allow you to be competitive in a target archery venue where you have to hit a little bullseye 60 or 90 times in a row to be in the top group of archers.

When I said muscles are not very consistent and are much more prone to fatigue and form deterioration over time, I maybe should have said "over a shooting session". With fresh muscles making only one shot, you can get away with a little more latitude on form vs. shooting a 100+ arrow target tourney.

RE: Straight bow-arm vs. Bent bow-arm
 

In my case by bent I mean if my shoulder were at 6 o'clock and my elbow were where the hour and minute hands attach my bow arm would be between 1:30 and 2 o'clock.

No problem. I just thought it was being taken out of context. Other post forgotten;)

RE: Straight bow-arm vs. Bent bow-arm
 

Thanks BF - Yes thats what I mean....

Most straight arm advocates are talking Target/competition...samething IMO with nailing that perfect drawlength.

In reality I could probably hit deer just as well with a draw length 2 inches longer or shorter than I am..If i practiced that way.

You can shoot VERY well with a bent arm.....but....most of the Top competetive target shooters shoot with a straight or almost straight bow arm.

I will take the clothing clearance over the 1 or 2 arrows out of sixty that might miss the five ring with a bent arm.

when I target shoot it goes almost straight............I still miss the X.....LOL.....:D

RE: Straight bow-arm vs. Bent bow-arm
 

Just to keep the specific issue up front, I am talking about the advocating of using a bent bow-arm to be part of a correct shooting form, period. Not a temporary adaptation to meet a difficult shooting situation in the field.

Should a person train to shoot the correct way and adjust/adapt from a correct method for a difficult shooting situation that occasionally occurs, or acquire a conditioned shooting form that is not the best shooting form for best and consistent accuracy, but might be handy in case the person faces a difficult shooting situation?

RE: Straight bow-arm vs. Bent bow-arm
 

I think bent arm is a CORRECT way for bowhunting - I think it allows a little more "forgiveness" in forms that can arise in bowhunting - It will deliver super accurate shots when needed.

I think straight to almost straight is the CORRECT way to shoot or learn to shoot competition.

And of course you can do well in both with either:D;)

RE: Straight bow-arm vs. Bent bow-arm
 

I know a guy who's fond of saying "Life, she is full of compromises".

I think that applies here quite nicely.

RE: Straight bow-arm vs. Bent bow-arm
 

What kind and degree of "forgiveness" does the bent arm method provide for hunting conditions? I am still not clear on how much bent is bent, but just what hunting shooting conditions justify using a bent bow-arm as standard hunting form?

If the degree of bent arm actually shortens the draw-length during the shot, is not your anchor and line of sight affected? Would not a bent/cracked bow arm introduce hand torque? What happens with string and eye to pin to target alignment?

RE: Straight bow-arm vs. Bent bow-arm
 

I shoot the way Range described. That being said I don't see how anyone can be consitant shooting either way if they aren't comfortable/relaxed. Shooting the way RB described I sometimes feel so relaxed I could stay at full draw all day, then my bow muscles remind me otherwise.:)

RE: Straight bow-arm vs. Bent bow-arm
 

Its seems like to me you should just pick up your bow and shoot what ever way settles comfortably. I usually shoot best when doing whats comfortable.

RE: Straight bow-arm vs. Bent bow-arm
 

Try to get beyond the form adaptation aspect for bowhunting purposes and conditions, or for comfort and relaxation. I am referring to the bent bow-arm shooting form that is often suggested vs. what historically was/is the standard form, when tuning everything for best arrow flight and accuracy….before heading to the field.

Being comfortable and relaxed does not always mean that a person's form is good. Nevertheless, if accuracy is good, and has been unwavering so for an extended period, then I will compromise and agree to leave things be. However, beware. If comfort and relaxation is derived from an adaptation of what is correct, and you decide to experiment with what is the correct method, things can go to hell in a hand basket very rapidly.

RE: Straight bow-arm vs. Bent bow-arm
 

Shooting low wrist, I don't get full extension in my elbow. It keeps a natural, soft bend when I'm shooting. If I used high wrist, straight elbow, perfect "T" form and really stretched into the shot, I'd have a 35" draw length! It's bad enough at 33". I don't want a longer draw.

But I've seen some guys shooting with their elbows bent dang near 90 degrees. I guess that's what you've got to do when you're shooting one of those P.O.S. bows with a 6" brace height. (You wanted to know where the bent elbow came from. That's it!)

What I could never figure out - What's the point in bending the elbow so much they're giving up at least 2" of draw length in order to shoot a low brace bow? They'd be just as well off to straighten that elbow out to their natural draw length and shoot a bow with an 8" brace.

But, these days, common sense rarely has as much to do with equipment selection as IBO speed ratings do. [:-]

;)

RE: Straight bow-arm vs. Bent bow-arm
 

Amen Arther P,

Also, in Terry Ragsdale's instruction videos it is explained that the bow arm should be in the same position as it would hang naturally by your side. Not extended fully out. Imagine what he could do with a bow if he had proper form. If the bow arm were extended all the way out it would be next to impossible to get proper back tension. To shoot without back tension, is detrimental to accuracy IMO. With the front arm extended fully the bow is being pulled and held back with the longer arm muscles, and not the shorter , stronger back muscles. I do ALOT of hunting and 3-D shooting. I try to incorporate back tension in hunting as much as possible. I shoot a scott little bitty goose with both back tension and with the trigger method in those hard to shoot positions. If you like to shoot with the straight bow arm then go for it. I would never critisize a person for sending an arrow home every time, even if it wasn't the form that I would use.

RE: Straight bow-arm vs. Bent bow-arm
 

Well maybe I'm a little different, but I'll set my draw 1/4" or so on the short side for my hunting bow vs my target bow which I consider to be about my best for draw.

Reason for this is like RA mentioned, a little "forgiveness" of the situation at hand. Heavy sleeved jackets have almost cost me a dandy buck. With a tad shorter draw on my hunting rig, it allows me to still keep my anchor that I'm used to and have been using throughout the year, but will give me a little more clearance on my forearm with thick clothing. Over my bulky cold weather coat I always wear (now) an arm guard to keep my forearm clothing material in check. I only need to make one shot that counts.

Also, a slightly shorter draw gives (me) a slightly better window of form for really awkward situations. Imagine if couldn't move your feet very much but you had to twist around to your right a LOT to make a shot (for a RH shooter). Like if you were standing there and your target was off in the direction of your right shoulder. With a draw length a tad on the short side, it still gives some room to apply back tension at full draw. If the draw was on the long side, there's nowhere tofully draw or "pull"- try it you'll see what I mean. No problem twisting to your left as you can bend your bow arm a little more.

I shoot on average around 1000 shots a month, a little lighter in the summer. I know what my best target form and draw should feel like because I'm doing it 95% of the time. The other 5% of the time I'm shooting my hunting bow to dial in broadheads or double check tuning. So my best hunting form with a slightly shorter draw may not exactly duplicate my best target form.... Just my ramblings.......

RE: Straight bow-arm vs. Bent bow-arm
 

"Shooting low wrist, I don't get full extension in my elbow. It keeps a natural, soft bend when I'm shooting. If I used high wrist, straight elbow, perfect "T" form and really stretched into the shot, I'd have a 35" draw length! It's bad enough at 33". I don't want a longer draw."

Bingo! A credible lead as to how I believe the bent bow-arm belief may have evolved, and very close to my own theory.

The more I read what Art has to contribute to the tech side, the more I realize that he knows his stuff and he can concisely cut through the crap. It is my theory that wrist positions, along with being over-bowed or having a too short draw-length, or all of the above, are possibly how the "bent-arm" method belief began. I also agree with Ragsdale.

However, other than how Art has explained why he personally needs to use a bent arm, and what degree of bend he uses, I wonder how many learning shooters or shooters wanting to try different methods, believe that some degree of bend in the bow is a must for proper shooting form, but do not know exactly how much bend they are suppose to have, and/or whether the bend is suppose to be horizontal or vertical?

Also, so far I don't believe I have read where anyone is being criticized for using a bent arm method.

RE: Straight bow-arm vs. Bent bow-arm
 

c903, You are correct indeed. No, one is being critized here.

Draw length is the key to proper form. If you are too long it would be near impossible to keep the arm slightly bent. Too short and your arm will be too bent.

Also, if you are overbowed you will not be able to control your positioning to obtain the correct form. Too much energy will be spent holding the bow back in an inproper position.

Being too bent, it will be harder to find a constant anchor point , which is detrimental to consistant accuracy.

Too straight and you better have an arm guard.

Everyone will have a different preferance as to what end of the spectrum that they would like to go. A little bit of effort is required , but you will know when you find the sweet spot.

RE: Straight bow-arm vs. Bent bow-arm
 

IMO, neither.

Try this- directly to your left direction (for RH shooter) hold up your hand in the flat palm "STOP indication" mannerism at full arm's length. Now slowly bring your hand towards your shoulder/face and notice which direction your elbow naturally wants to go. It's close to a 30* down and left for me- but everyone will be a little different. Try to bring your hand in and have your elbow bend only vertically (straight down), it is very unnatural and awkward. Same thing for having your elbow bend in the purely horizontal.

Your "natural" elbow bend direction is where you'll be the most comfortable (and repeatable). If you have to "force" into a form position, there's no way you'll be able to accurately do it time after time after time....

RE: Straight bow-arm vs. Bent bow-arm
 

Randy Ulmer

That is the proper amount to bend the elbow. If you want to fight with Randy Ulmer. Good luck:D

RE: Straight bow-arm vs. Bent bow-arm
 

I see, ewolf, but I do not see an exaggerated bend in bow-arm and the question remains: "How bent is bent?" I believe that Art P has somewhat defined it (degree of bend) when he said "…soft bend," as has Ragsdale.

There are shooters that do not understand that the bend that is recommended is the natural bending (cracking) that occurs when you rotate your elbow outboard and do not over-extend your bow arm. However, not all do. Some shooters believe you exaggerate the bend to get their bow-arm and clothing away from the oncoming string, compensate for short draw-length, compensate for over-bowed, etc; and the method is correct form. That is "adaptation."

RE: Straight bow-arm vs. Bent bow-arm
 

Actually, that is the proper amount for Randy Ulmer. Yours will likely be different. Mine definitely is. Not nearly as much bend as Ulmer's. Not quite as straight as Ferguson's.

It is a mistake to take a picture of one guy's form, no matter how good he shoots, point your finger at the picture and say "that's how it's done." I remember seeing a pic of a world class archer who kept his elbow hyperextended, bent backwards, when he shot. Not something I would want to duplicate, even if my elbow COULD bend that way. (Ouch![:-])

A smart shooter takes care to observe what the champions are doing and, rather than trying to duplicate their style, tries to adopt parts of their technique that will work within his own personal shooting style. Personal shooting style is always based on the shooter's individual physical capbilities and limitations.

Besides, if we could all shoot as well as Randy Ulmer simply by copying his form, the man would be out of a job.[8D]

RE: Straight bow-arm vs. Bent bow-arm
 

Ditto!

RE: Straight bow-arm vs. Bent bow-arm
 

This Swedish archer has a less than straight arm. From what I hear, he's very good.



Each person has to find out what works best for them. This can take a bit of experimentation and a ton of practice. By the way, I agree that a slightly bent arm is an advantage when hunting .

RE: Straight bow-arm vs. Bent bow-arm
 

Look how tensed the muscles in his arm are.

RE: Straight bow-arm vs. Bent bow-arm
 

This one gets posted on A.T. all the time of Clint Freeman as almost picture perfect form. Who's form do you think will hold up over a shooting session better and be more consistent shot after shot and after 100+ arrows? Clint's or the Swedish archer's?

RE: Straight bow-arm vs. Bent bow-arm
 

Bingo. That's me. And I only get there if I'm relaxed and comfortable...

I think a big issue is in my experience the bulk of the pro shops many visit have no clue and overbow people to begin with. I would assume a very very small percentage of archers are getting any kind of solid instruction on archery fundamentals from the get go. Most are just handed a bow that doesn't fit them as an individual and their on their own from there.

RE: Straight bow-arm vs. Bent bow-arm
 

Rangeball:

I don't know if the bulk of pro shops do or don't do as you say, but I agree with much of what you said. You can also throw in the pile, catalogue ordering and used bow purchasing; which is not a bad thing if the person purchasing the bow knows what he or she should, in order to purchase a bow that is correct for them.

As for the pics of different shooters, Art P is correct when he said, "It is a mistake to take a picture of one guy's form, no matter how good he shoots, point your finger at the picture and say "that's how it's done." However, you know it is highly likely there are learning shooters who do not have access to a personal instructor who are doing just that. That is why I have asked, "What is exactly meant when someone says to bend your bow-arm." How bent is bent?

Not only do I believe there are shooters trying to teach themselves by looking at pictures, I know for a fact that there are shooters that are misinterpreting archery terminology's they do not yet understand; and some, if not many, are forming bad habits due to the misinterpretation. The "bent bow-arm" is one.

A novice starts shooting; keeps getting string-slap (which will make anyone want to over-bend their bow arm), can’t get their anchor to full draw so they bend their bow-arm until they can anchor, they are over-bowed, etc. Then they see pics such as the shooter from Sweden (is that not a vertical bend?) and read that some shooters seem to be saying that they are over-bending their bow-arm to keep from hitting their arm or clothing, and, bingo! The novice now believes he or she has correctly understood what bending your bow-arm means. The result is, consistency is just a word to them and they never become proficient with a bow.

I know there seems to be a redundancy occurring in this thread, but sometimes it takes repetitiveness or the same thing said in different ways to turn a person's light on. ;)

RE: Straight bow-arm vs. Bent bow-arm
 

c903
Some books, from competition shooters say, shoot with your arm in the same form it takes as it hangs, when you are standing.
I do not know if that will help, but it seams to give you both worlds: relaxed, & a little bend and a little straight.

RE: Straight bow-arm vs. Bent bow-arm
 

That's why I typed "in my experience..."

Around here that's definitely the case. Hell, you can't even walk out of the door with a decent tune from 99% of them... This from the "experts" many look to for advice, guidance and instruction.

It's a sad state of affairs.

RE: Straight bow-arm vs. Bent bow-arm
 

Here is a training method from yesteryear that can reveal some things regarding gripping a bow, best wrist and hand position, rotating the elbow, string travel in relation to your arm, bow-arm bend, etc. It was taught by an excellent recurve shooter and coach. The method is still applicable and can apply to compound shooters.

My coach taught, using the exact rationale as stated by Art P.

I remember him (coach) saying (paraphrased), "There is the recommended way, and then, eventually, there is your way!" He taught the (standard) basics of proper shooting form, but because an individual's physical characteristics differ, he would first identify what particular form aspect may be best for the individual. It was because of him that I changed from a low-wrist grip to a high-wrist grip.

To demonstrate rotating the elbow and what hand (low, medium, high wrist) position may be best for the individual, here is what he had us do.

Using the edge of an interior door (narrow):

1. Stand in a shooting stance with the edge of the door being your bow grip.
2. Place your bow hand on the door edge, with the edge of the door intersecting the web of your hand as you would when properly holding (gripping) your bow.
3. Lean (sideways) towards the door as to simulate the pressure on your bow hand of a drawn bow.
4. Use a low-wrist grip, but keep your fingers relaxed and slightly bent towards the riser. Now try to rotate your bow-arm elbow outboard.
5. Now do the same with a medium-wrist and then a high-wrist.
6. Which grip allows the best ease to maximally rotate your elbow and forearm outboard, and do so without raising the bow-arm shoulder?

At the time, I was using a low-wrist grip, with the heel of my hand resting against the grip-swell. He eventually walked up to me, placed his hand on my bow shoulder, and told me to try the method again, but to keep my grip fingers open. As I attempted to rotate my arm, he pressed down on my bow shoulder. I was barely able to rotate my arm, and with much difficulty.

What he observed, was that in order for me to get my bow-arm turned and my elbow outboard, I was unconsciously and momentarily closing my fingers on the door and lifting my bow shoulder too high. Once into position, I would open my fingers but my bow shoulder remained too high in order for me to keep my arm rotated. He had me use a medium-wrist grip but to no avail.

Then he demonstrated the high-wrist grip and had me repeat the method using a high-wrist. Bam! Not only were my grip fingers automatically out and away from the door (riser,) I could not close them down with any great pressure or easily grab the door (bow) as long as I stayed in the high-wrist position. As I proceeded to rotate my bow-arm and elbow, I was amazed to discover that my forearm and elbow were already outboard and to a degree I had never been able to do, and my bow shoulder was down. Using another demonstrative method, he (coach) later showed the different distances between arm and string travel using different grip styles. Another benefit of my going to a high-wrist was I was able to lower my brace.

He went into the shop area, came back and introduced me to my first snap-on wrist sling. Once I became comfortable with the high-wrist grip, my accuracy gradually improved tenfold, and arm slapping by the string was seldom. Anyone that has shot a stick bow to any extent will know that to eliminate or minimize string to arm contact is a cause for celebration.

As to what does my story of grip-style have to with the bent-arm issue? Once I discovered that the high-wrist was best FOR ME; my bow shoulder was down where it should be, my draw-length was correct, and I was not over-bowed, the correct bend in MY bow-arm was just naturally there and is not something I think about

PS: When hunting, my clothing on my bow-arm is strapped down with Velcro straps or a woman's nylon hose.

RE: Straight bow-arm vs. Bent bow-arm
 

c903,

Wow, thank you for that explanation. I have been working on my shooting technique this year, plus getting back into archery. I've been reading your comments on this since I, and probably like some others out there, do not have a coach so we are self taught. This definately helps me in understaing more about the proper way to hold a bow, stance, and relase.

My shooting has definately improved this year. Since Archery season opens in October, my amount of shooting will also increase over August and September, as well as my muzzleloading shooting.

Thanks again,

Tom

RE: Straight bow-arm vs. Bent bow-arm
 

The higher the pressure on the grip, the less movement amplification on the arrow rest, thus greater accuracy. But a hunter who may need to hold a draw for a while, waiting on a shot, may have a inclination to lower the grip, to put the weight back on the heel of the hand for comfort or weakness (like myself). Just make sure the release is not from that position.

RE: Straight bow-arm vs. Bent bow-arm
 

At a 3D shoot at my club, the winner shot with a bent arm. This shoot had a couple of factory pro's and some a couple of guys who shoot on a national level. His arm was so bent that I would estimate that it took 2" off of his DL. (He is tall enough that the 2" doesn't matter, he still shoots about a 30" DL). So it is possible to shoot well with a bent arm as long as you can repeat it every time.

That being said, IMHO the straight but not locked bow arm will be the most accurate for the vast majority of archers. If your hunting clothes interfer with the shot, you should do something about the clothes, not your shooting form.

One disadvantage to the radically bent arm is that it requires a lot more strength to shoot. The bent arm archer above told me that he had been away from archery a few years and had not yet built up enough strength to shoot with a back tension release. release. Unfortunately, I did not get to ask him more about it.

A second disadvantage is that over the years, you will probably have elbow problems. He's too young to think of that, I'm not:(

JMHO.
Allen