Lettery about speed from Bowtech:
 

-----Original Message-----
From: DON
Sent: Wednesday, July 07, 2004 9:06 AM
To: A-DON
Subject: FW: DON 04 PATRIOT:

-----Original Message-----
From: Pat [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Wednesday, July 07, 2004 7:39 AM
To: DON
Cc: Jerid Strasheim
Subject: Re: DON 04 PATRIOT:
Don,

Hopefully you got things squared away to your satisfaction.

As far as posting your findings and my technical info on message boards, I see no problems with that.

Regards, Pat


----- Original Message -----

HELLO BOWTECH : Relating to This Bow(H46950115)


Subject: RE: DON 04 PATRIOT:


Don,

A 60 lb. bow is generally going to be 4-6 fps. slower than a 70 lb. bow
when set up the same. Also keep in mind that our advertised speeds are
tested with nothing on the string except a tied on nock and as stated on
the Birth Certificate, the use of our VibraBlocks and Hush Kit can
decrease the velocity by 3-5 fps. from our advertised speed ratings and
will very accordingly.

I know it sounds like I'm trying to make excuses but I'm not, I'm just
trying to give you some reasons as to why it may not be shooting what
you believe it should be and if the dealer's bringing the bow up here
this weekend I'm certain it will be looked at to see if there's a
problem with it somewhere.

Regards, Pat

HELLO PAT:

The above numbers adjusted for a 63lb Bow and add a short string loop to the
serving nock should be 3-5 fps. Thus the low Guesstimate on the Low End
would be 315: a foot or two lower Guesstimate, than I recieved from other
People there before the Bow was bought; but if after I get it back from the
retest at the Factory & Pro Shop, & test it @ 315 with a full 5 gr lbs with
both my meters or if I can find some agency that can test it at a full 315
fps, we will let it pass. Otherwise I will believe I was misled for the
$ 700.
I have Bows I can use for testing things at about 310 fps, I wished I could
get a 60 lbs ? bow that could shoot closer to 320 than 310, "But if you are
telling me here, that the Patriot 04 is not that Bow: I will believe you,
and pass the word".
Is it OK to post this letter on Internet Archery Forms?

Don

Don,

Our advertised speeds are tested at a full 70 lbs. with a 5 grain per
pound arrow. Any time you're dealing with draw weight less our
advertised weight you'll lose some speed even though you're still using
a 5 grain per pound arrow.

The cam timing should be set at 0.305 for best performance.

If you feel there's something wrong please have the dealer call our
Warranty Dept. to get it taken care of for you.

Regards, Pat

Pat

I know that advertised speeds are tested at a full 70 lbs. with 5 gr.
per pound arrow wt. . But here one has to take the info put out, when you cannot shoot it before
you pay.

I bought this Bow with 4 draw length Modules to test archery components
& I could use more speed. I have Mathews, Bear, and Darton Bows but none
offered more than 310 fps @ 5 grs.

Where I live we had to pay for this Bow before we shot it. So I called
Bowtech 2 or 3 times to make inquiries about the speed, what speet we
would loose at 60+2-3 lbs. 5 gr.: and was told very little if any.. I was not
given a fast number but was told within a few feet of low range or over
it. That is the 320-328 per 5 grs.

Now the Birth Certificate is puzzling it says Peak wtight is 61 shooting
300 grs, but the Pro Shop & myself get 63 lbs. Does that mean the bow is
meant to be shot at 4.85 grs.? The Pro Shop did some test at 4.86 grs per
lbs(63lbs-306 grs) & got 314,315, & 316 fps from this bow. The shop owner
told Mike he got 316 fps from this Bow as if it is supposed to be shot at
4.86 grs.. ""So I may need more instructions on this Bow"".
At 5 grs that would be 311,312, & 313 fps. Not precisely what I Paid
The $ 700 for. And my meters one is same model as theirs, plus one just bought to
confirm this Bow's readings got 2 or 3 less fps.

The Pro Shop Owner is taking this bow up to you this week-end for the
shoot-out & Mike said a new Birth Certificate would be put on it for the
30" Module. I hope it is a Birth Certificate I can understand a little
better. If my equipment takes the, same readings, I will have it checked out
with different Shops & Agency's until I can find out what is wrong, at all
cost.

Let me know where & if something is wrong, or if we have a failed
communication.

Thanks
Don
When I got this Bow back from the factory it did not shoot any better so I guess that is the way it goes with Bowtech.

RE: Lettery about speed from Bowtech:
 

You know that bow scale readings and chrono readings can vary from model to model and unit to unit right?

RE: Lettery about speed from Bowtech:
 

DWAASP,
I've delt with the same issue on my 64# patriot (65# on my scale)and decided to just live with it. Fighting/ worrying about 5-10 fps isn't gonna get me any better sleep at night.
My patriot is smooth, quiet, a pleasure to draw and accurate. Do I think it will shoot the advertised 320 minimum- no. I worried about it at first, but then realized the 5 fps I felt I was missing wasn't allowing me to enjoy my bow.
Besides 315 isn't too shabby.
If these 64# limbs ever cracked I would request 70#ers as a replacement, but I don't see that hapening so- Oh well. I got what I got.

Mr. whitetail won't care what fps I shoot, I just hope he gives me the chance to meet his aquaintence this season. I'll be more than happy to take a picture with him while holding my beloved Patriot!:D

RE: Lettery about speed from Bowtech:
 

dwaasp, you never mention what draw length you're shooting this bow at. You don't mention BC speed either. Is it not possible that your scale reads a bit higher than BowTech's? I think you're splitting hairs to say shooting at 4.85 gpp. .15 gpp is at best negligible. Is your arrow scale that accurate? Or your bow scale for that matter?
What does this tell you?
As I'm sure you know, IBO specs are with 30" draw. Since you are getting a 30" module installed, I must assume the bow came with a shorter module. 1" of draw will gain some speed.

RE: Lettery about speed from Bowtech:
 

I don't know who that Pat guy is, but he sounds like a real A-hole...

:)

RE: Lettery about speed from Bowtech:
 

Just remember when you fall below the IBO specs, add peep sights, string loops, heavier arrows, etc. you change the variables that affect speed. I have seen some bows that perfrom as advertised & some that do not.

I wouldn't worry about a bit slower arrow, it's not a big deal & you will still shoot just as good with it in my opinion.

RE: Lettery about speed from Bowtech:
 

Have you tried duplicating the test with nothing on the string but a tied on nock point, like Bowtech and others do?

If not, it's apples and oranges until you do.

Does that say you bought a chrony JUST to verify that your bowtech isn't shooting what you thought it would?

RE: Lettery about speed from Bowtech:
 

Way too much emphasis on speed IMHO

The deer isn't picky about how fast a broadhaed passed through;)

RE: Lettery about speed from Bowtech:
 

Yeeesh, you ain't kiddin' RB...;):D

RE: Lettery about speed from Bowtech:
 

Thats up to 318;)



Now we are up to 322;)

Sounds Darn near perfect to me:D

RE: Lettery about speed from Bowtech:
 

DWAASP!
Wow! your one tuff customer to please ,if you think it would be any better elsewhere your sadly mistaken .I don't understand what difference 5fps will make when you shoot at your quarrie ,but I don't think he really will care just how fast that arrow is going when you shoot him. Second when you choose your arrow's for hunting, then your right back where you started.What's the big deal ,am I missing something here? Also you went out and bought a new Chrony for testing ,I'm sure that wasn't cheap ,it sure seem's your going to a lot of trouble over 5or 6 fps.Don't you think?

nubo

RE: Lettery about speed from Bowtech:
 

Sounds like an argument based on principles. You never win those.

Bow tech probably hope he will buy another brand next time.

RE: Lettery about speed from Bowtech:
 

DaveC

I had bought this Bow for research that’s why I called them twice to get an idea of what speed I may expect, & with 4 different draw lengths: the initial BC was 28.5” @ 61# -297. I set it up the same way I thought they got the numbers with a full 5 gr lb & got 294. When it came back from the Factory it had a BC of 30” @ 61#-319. I set it up the same way I thought they got the numbers with a full 5 gr lb & got 310. With a few supplements &, shooting 305 gr @ 63#, 4.86 per #, and a setting on the stop that pulled it solid against the Wall I finally got 319. Maybe that is the way the test are made by all companies????

RE: Lettery about speed from Bowtech:
 

I can feel your pain...

My $25,000.00 Mustang gets 3 MPG less than the window sticker said and when I asked them about it, they said it may be because of my driving style and they don't drive their cars like that when they do their mileage tests.

I guess I need to drive it the same way as they do to get the same results maybe?;):D

RE: Lettery about speed from Bowtech:
 

it would be very safe to say that all bow companies shoot against the wall, I find it hard to belive that they creep tune or shoot them short of the wall in the valley. It would be too inconsistent, who is to say the the initial testor is shooting from the same place in the valley as the customer is? It also seems to me you may not be familier on the proper usage and placement of the DRAW STOP/LETOFF POST

RE: Lettery about speed from Bowtech:
 

dwaasp, I never thought about it but the BC doesn't say what letoff they achieved the speed at. If it was at 65% instead of 80%- that could be where I lost some fps I never considered.

My BC has them shooting a 300 grain arrow at 64#, that translates to 4.6875 grains per pound.
Does that mean BOWTECH voided my warranty:D!
I really doubt it, but its something to ponder.

Before anybody jumps on me- I Like my bow, but the 60-70#er I test shot was quicker when let down to 62# than this one is at 64#. If I'd know that was gonna be the case I'd buy the 60-70# model I test shot and back it down to 65# Instead of ordering the heavy 60.
My Mighty-mite was quicker only shooting it at 63.5# on my scale & chrony(same set up) than this one is at 65#(my scale).

NOT that I was looking for a speed demon, but IBO ratings are a major consideration when I bow shop. Otherwise I'd be shooting a tomcat;).

RE: Lettery about speed from Bowtech:
 

Speed thrills,Accuracy kills.I took my LX and put a 305gr and got 318fps @70lbs with my 30in draw,YAHOO.The thing about is that I don't shoot it that way.My set-up is 63lbs,415grs-272fps,which is very accurate and comfortable.Just my $.02 worth..Bob

RE: Lettery about speed from Bowtech:
 

Wow, seems like the guy has a legitimate claim to me. It may be nit-picking, but he attempted to reproduce the exact same scenario as the tested BC scenario, and could not. Now you may not care if your bow is exact, but it sounds like he had much contact to attempt to buy exactly what he wanted. In my opinion, he did not get what he paid for, and apparently he even asked for before and verified the speed before he bought it. If he has a complaint about that, it is well within his right to do so. I am sure there is another side to the story, but he seems justified with the issue.

The mustang seems like a poor analogy, as he is apparently trying very hard to exactly reproduce the results obtained at the factory, and none of us drive at constant speed at optimum efficiency, or even attempt to.

Just my opinion, let the beatings begin,
JMAC

RE: Lettery about speed from Bowtech:
 

No beatings jmac! I just wasn't sure of the reasons why he was complaining over a couple fps.Now that he has explained his point I understand where he's coming from.

nubo

RE: Lettery about speed from Bowtech:
 

pro38_shooter

The, nearby Pro Shop, shot the 5 gr # at 311, 312, and 313 @30”, that was 65% valley, and wall: I was told the owner here is one of the best tech’s and a competition shooter. He took my bow up to the factory on the 4th at the shoot-out. That is when it came back with the BC 319 @ 61#. For me to get the 319 @ 63# it was necessary to add two more speed nocks at various points & over-rotate slightly against the wall. Now as for setting the stop, the Patriot has infinite, when the suggested is near the middle of the range. Now: I am interested in Archery, and would like to know just how the companies get the numbers. If you, are anyone on this topic, has the inside, I would like to know?? Or if you know of an agency in the Western US who has the inside, I would follow-up.

Thanks

RE: Lettery about speed from Bowtech:
 

DaveC Good Work:

DaveC, I saw that every company always says, their Bows shoot best at MAX, so I bought where I wished to shoot. I did not even think to test at the lesser weights; well I guess this focus is good for something.

And it is true, many people as myself, try to pay up to $700 for a few fps and when it is not there, I guess to bad?? On many small land lots with small game, where a gun would not be allowed; one would wish to have a Bow that could stay in a 2” spot without 10 sight pins??

RE: Lettery about speed from Bowtech:
 

If ultimate speed at 65% letoff is your goal the Patriot Dually sounds more like what your looking for.

RE: Lettery about speed from Bowtech:
 

How far do you plan to shoot at live game? I have heard others here mention they can set up 1 pin out to 30 yards on their Patriot SC. If you sight in at 25, it should only be approximately 1.5" high at 15 and maybe 1" low at 30 yards. Just a thought.

RE: Lettery about speed from Bowtech:
 

DaveC

I ask Bowtech about trading up this Bow for a 70# or Dually: the word was no, a return may Lose Face for them. And they seem to say, see your dealer, my dealer thought was, that one was not to presume a speed, near the word put out by the companies.

RE: Lettery about speed from Bowtech:
 

Swamp Dawg
On Lots in CA 2-10 ac. Most are to near roads or other homes, for shooting guns, even in the mountains where I live. I know the Trajectory Table in the book, Balanced BowHunting, is shot with 5” helical fletching: One could improve on that with a Stable Bow, @ 310 fps or more, 3” off-set fletch, & a drop-away rest that drops away before the end of pressure acceleration on the string, & a couple of inches before deacceleration pressure on the string, to purge some of the failing of the Bow Hand,(bad form, nervous, lack of practice, torque, no follow through the sight picture until the arrow hits target & etc.), in other words be able to pass it around like a gun. And I guess that is how you got the 1” drop from 25 to 30 yds. Now we were hoping something like that, would be the case also.

RE: Lettery about speed from Bowtech:
 

I'm guessing you're kinda new to this archery stuff huh???:eek:

RE: Lettery about speed from Bowtech:
 

Thanks for the understanding JMAC_OR: we do not have the ability or patients to often get within less than 30 or 35 yds of small game in these desert mountains, so we wished for more speed. The pro shop where I got the bow does not believe in the Bow Adds at all, & when I told the tech what speed I planed to shoot the Bow, he said “in your dreams only” & seamed to think I was a Nut: And I will not argue that point here.
But when we took it home, set it up with a 316 gr arrow, a full 5 gr per # as we and the shop got 63#. We took off the hush kit and brass nock it came with & installed a short D Loop. When I saw the 310 reading I was shocked. We had an old Darton Lighting here that we could get to shoot 309.
That is when I started the Exchange with the Shop & Bowtech.
The rest is written on this Forum.
I will Post my Theory, on the BC test on this Forum.

RE: Lettery about speed from Bowtech:
 

As you are learning depending on the IBO rating of a bow to be accurate is rather futile. Even with bowtech, who has some of the most consistant ratings you can get. They make no garauntees your bow will actually shoot that fast when you get it however. And they even expain it in the manual. Your bow should at least shoot close to what they say it will. Some companies are no where near what they rate thier bows for. IBO is a pretty lax standard and the companies can get away with a lot. The AMO rating is much more accurate, but you don't see bow companies list the AMO speed very often. The criteria for the AMO spec is much more outlined and precise. It makes it harder to fudge things one way or the other. It unfortunately doesn't look as good since the speeds are slower.

Not to mention the equipment we use to measure this sort of stuff is not all that accurate any way. There are so many variables to the equation off exact speed for a projectile, espeacially one as long as an arrow that it would be very difficult to repeat the test to within one FPS with different equipment.

We normally use the IBO rating as a comparison thing. It sort of lets you know what bows are more effecient than others. That is providing the companies didn't cheat a little on thier specs, or flat out fib about them.

In your previous post you mentioned something like "passing it around like a gun". If by this you mean you want to be able to set your bow up, then hand it to someone else and have them shoot the same, good luck. It really doesn't work that way with archery. Especially with with the more complicated set ups like compound bows with rests and sights, and peeps. Every one shoots a bow differently and has different demensions to there body. If you just hand your bow to someone else, even if the draw length is the same, they will most likely not get arrows to impact in the same spot. I'm not saying it can't happen, just the odds are not very good. If you were going to try this, I would suggest using the NO PEEP by Timberline. This would give you the best results, but still may not be as accurate as you want. I have noticed with mine grip pressure effects the impact of the arrows. So if the other person grips the bow differently than you do (and they most likley will) the arrow will impact in a different spot.

Bows are not guns, period. That's why people that are into archery are so passionate about it. It is a very individual type of sport. Full of conjectures, opinions and theories. All of which may or may not be correct.

Good luck with your quest. Remeber the most important thing here is to have fun and love what you are doing. If not, why bother with it.

I'm thinking from what I'm hearing you might be more well suited with a good crossbow. Are they legal where you live? Something like this would have more of the qualities you are looking for. And they are fun to shoot as well. I may get slammed for mentioning it here, but what the heck. Too bad you already have the bow though. I don't know if your dealer would let you do some sort of trade up or something. Or you could sell the bow I guess. Bowtech's most likely have pretty decent resale value

Paul

RE: Lettery about speed from Bowtech:
 

Thanks Paul for the info:

What I would like to do is trade up to the 70#. Now I would give $300 but Bowtech says they do not do such things. Now I will try the shop; but if they say $400 or more I would not be happy. As you suggest I will check the resale value on this Bow & I could set it up to get the BC’s 319; perhaps the way they did it. The shop where I got it does keep the 70’s in stock & if the ones they got, shoot as the one DaveC talked about @ 62# I could live with it. I do like the way they shoot but would like to get my Money’s Worth. And I would like for the companies to clarify this word “EFFICIENCY” if a 70 set at 62 will outshoot a 60#, shot @ 62#.

RE: Lettery about speed from Bowtech:
 

dwaasp.

Get your shop to order you a set of 70lb limbs they will set you back about $110

RE: Lettery about speed from Bowtech:
 

Or you could always work on this part of your game...

:)

RE: Lettery about speed from Bowtech:
 

Thanks Ausie-guy:

That does appear the way to go. You know in the Texas Hill Country where my family came from(West of San Antonio), One can use a Lance, for the Deer without a lot of practice: & I guess the average Bow Kill is 20 yds or less.

RE: Lettery about speed from Bowtech:
 

dwaasp,
I'm not sure why the 60-70#er I test shot was faster, I just figured my bow was slower. Please don't take my one time experience as science.
I know the higher poundaged Pat shot faster than mine even at a lower weight because I brought in the same arrow and shot it through their chrony both times I shot. (test shoot date prior to order and purchase date).
The 60-70#er shot my arrow at 289 at 62#(their scale), my bow at 65# (their scale) was shooting at ~285.
4ps less plus whatever speed the extra 3 pounds was worth.

RE: Lettery about speed from Bowtech:
 

Thanks DaveC:

Well I figured my bow was slower too & thought it should have been replaced by the company. I will buy both sets of limbs the 70# & the 60# to get my head clear: or at least perchance find out what, Dictionary, they are getting these words out of.
And when One reads on page 3 of the Manual & I am sure many other Manuals; it says “EVERY BOW PERFORMS BEST @ PEAK WEIGHT”.

RE: Lettery about speed from Bowtech:
 

Maybe best doesn't necessarily mean "faster" when considering different draw weight combinations/possibilities.
I always assumed that statement referred to the vibration/ noise produced was least when at peak weight and would increase as the limb bolts were backed off. This is not jst a bowtech thing, I've read it several articles refering to compound bows in general.

If your gonna spend the dough, let us know what you find. If you like the higher draw limbs mo-better, you can always sell the 60#ers for good money.

I bet my 64-65# limbs (depending on whose scale you believe) would fetch a good price;)!

RE: Lettery about speed from Bowtech:
 

“EVERY BOW PERFORMS BEST @ PEAK WEIGHT”. This statement should mean both stability & speed, and One would think This Bow sales more for speed than stability.
When I, have jacked up bows from 53 to 63# I could not tell there was a big change in noise, vibration, or stability for the better. But it would be interesting to see how that would change a Score on the Target. Now with high speed and the target distance unknown you do read about Score changes.

RE: Lettery about speed from Bowtech:
 

pdq 5oh
The BC to start was a 28.5 module, & 297 at 61# for the 300gr. I had got 4 modules with this Bow. My speed was a couple less than the Pro Shop but my 2 meters read the same, the new one and the old. I was just trying to get a grasp on what these speed rates mean. My scales are not perfect so I use known weights to compare.

RE: Lettery about speed from Bowtech:
 

I have seen just about everything on this post....trying to get the same speed they get will be very hard to do....for 1. they are in a controled enviornment....a cold bow will shoot faster then a hot bow.....shooting through the top of the chrony verses the middle and the bottom makes a difference...also the distance from the chrony will also make a difference. Also the set on the let off ...higher let off = slower bow...And like what was mentioned in a earlier post the difference in machines....does not matter if its the same one or not...there are 3 different bow shops around here with the same chrony and you will get 3 different readings...

The fps on the bows are just a guide line for you to follow as a rating of there preformance. My Extreme Solo had a rating of 325-333 fps and the BC was 328 fps but this is just a guide..do i shoot 328 fps...NO!!!! I shoot a 450 gr arrow at 70.2# @ 295 fps with a 30" draw

Is that what the rating said....no its not....anyone who shoots a bow with that light of an arrow IMO is crazy....that light of arrow looses its energy alot faster then a heavier arrow will so what it all boils down to is your ability to hit your target and KE..that is whats important. And to have fun and enjoy the sport of archery

....Bob

PS.... You never mentioned if you where shooting your arrow with fletching or with out cuz that makes a difference. and as for your arrow nocks you have... loose nock/tight nock...single clip/double clip...theres to many differences

RE: Lettery about speed from Bowtech:
 

NwOutdoorShop
The truth is I have an interest in Archery and wonder how the companies get the speeds they do. I do not use a 300 gr for hunting even though I believe a bow is not stable if one needs to tie a parachute (4 or 5” helical fletching) on it to stabilize an arrow even a fixed blade Brodhead. Any target competition shooter will tell you 5” helical fletch will stop a light arrow down range. I believe if a Diamond 2 7/8” off-set fletch will not stabilize an arrow the bow is not stable. One can buy fixed blade Brodhead now that will work with the fletching to fly true, or one can Accurasize them with a little shop work. I did try tight & loose nocks & with this bow there was no difference. If you call Carbon Tech, one of the people there(I believe it’s the owner) will tell you of people who stabilize Broadheads at about 310 fps.

RE: Lettery about speed from Bowtech:
 

That is 100% wrong

I don't know what you mean by "bow is not stable" - but even a perfecty tuned bow will be benefited by a spinning arrow tiped with a broad head. Even if an arrow comes out of a bow perfectly straight, and the arrow perfectly spined, and the release was perfect - It will skid or plane without spin or fletchings.

That is also 100 wrong. Again, I don't know what you mean by "bow is not stable" . But you can't use "target Archers" and the methods they use in the same sentence as "broadheads" - different animal.


I am starting to see where most of this bow/speed problem lies:eek::eek::eek: