PW12:

First, they have NOT discontinued these shafts. All you have to do is look at your Beman spine chart to realize that.

Back when they first started making these shafts, Beman was a separate company (not owned then by Easton). Everyone in the industry, especially Easton who had a death grip on the market, wanted Beman to fail. The popularity of a much more durable shaft, and something that was stronger and lighter, became a big issue.

Bob Eastman, as he usually does, saw an opportunity and copied the Beman design with his AFC arrow. The popularity grew and the market share that Easton had enjoyed was being jeapordized. Easton went on a campaign to 'discredit' the use of carbon arrows with their meat contamination ads. While this thought has some merit, it is a stretch of the truth by a long shot. Anyone who has bludgeoned meat, either by an arrow or bullet, cuts out that area. Because the popularity kept growing, Easton decided therefore to buy Beman.

Since the technology was relatively new, much the way the wrapped carbon arrows are today, there were some problems. Over time, and with the investment of a lot of money, the technology improved. Yes, the side impact resistance of pultruded arrows is not as durable as the newer wrapped carbons; but, they are straighter, more consistant, and more durable in other areas. BTW, Bob Eastman had it going better than the Beman product until he decided to drop them.

What some fail to realize is that the have been improved over time to a point where they are better than they were 15 years ago. It's like saying that any product does not improve over time - which is wrong. Is there better technology available today? Yes, but it's right now not up to the standards that some of us find acceptable.

Do I want the wrapped carbons in my quiver? You bet I do. Do I want something that will last as long as the pultruded carbons have lasted for me and others? You bet I do. Do I want arrows as straight as the pultruded arrows that I now shoot? You bet I do. Do I want arrows as durable as the pultrudeds have been for my application? Again, you bet I do.

The durability of the wrapped carbons, if you're going to bang them sideways against anything is different than that of the pultrudeds. The pultrudeds will shatter whereas the wrapped will break. While I haven't seen or heard of any pultrudeds shattering into someone's arm in years, I have heard of wrapped carbons breaking off during the shot and going into archers' arms. I just found one several weeks ago that was broken under the nomenclature wrap. Had I shot this arrow before finding that problem, it may have surely wound up in my arm.

I would love to see the demise of pultruded carbon arrows for the sake of wrapped carbon arrows. To think that the wrapped carbon arrows are not a better design would be absurd on my part. I do think that I'm more intelligent than that. But, UNTIL they get this technology to a point where I feel comfortable, I'll stick with the comfort zone that I now enjoy with pultrudeds.

There are a couple of manufacturers of wrapped carbons that I do recommend in my store, that I find to be a cut above the rest. I use the A/C/C arrows on occassion and like the performance and limited durability. Again, for the money and the other benefits, I'll take the pultrudeds until they make something as good in all but one category.

And please, PW12, check your arrow charts. Pultrudeds HAVE NOT been discontinued. Only the AFC products that you used to use have been discontinued. Just setting the record straight.

Yep, Beman still makes thier pultruded shafts...I think CAE & Carbon Tech still have some as well. I was sad to see the AFC's dropped because as Len mentioned they had the best quality pultruded out there at the time...though I believe Len, that AFC (aligned fiber composites) was owned by someone previous to Bob Eastman..he bought AFC out in the mid 90's...96 or 97 I believe...

Regardless, Pultrudeds DID have the kinks worked out for the most part..more-so than wrapped shafts for spine & straightness consistency. Easton PCs, AFC Accells, and Beman Hunters were very precise shafting..at least compared to todays Internal component shafts. You could buy a dozen .004 (.008 TIR)straightness rated Easton PCs and they would roll straighter than 90% of todays .001 IC carbons

I think the real demise of Pultrudeds was one of convenience in building arrows,the nocks, and espcially outserts...people HATED outserts..especially ranges and clubs..they destroyed 3D targets left and right...I suspect had drop-away rests been as popular and well designed as they are now, we would have never seen the wrapped internal component shafts and be shooting even better pultrudeds

One of my fave hunting setups ever was an AFC Accell or PC 6.1 shafts with the old WASP CCL SST broadheads..eliminated the need for outserts and they spun true every time. I shot these out of various speedbows with 4 & 5" feathers, straight fletch @ 290-300 FPS with great accuracy...I wish Wasp still made them because I'd be shooting them off the current Beman Hunters...the Muzzy Glue ons (which I still believe are made) are another good choice.

For a hunting shaft, the Pultrudeds were hard to beat for penetration..and the reason the ST AXIS is now in production...if only the AXIS had the same straightness and ability to retain it

Wrapped shafts still have a ways to go...Carbon Express right now has the jump on the competition for consistency..I sure wish Easton could work out their issues with all carbon/carbon composite (i.e C2) technology...

See my sig

Len-

I of course will call a kettle black when it is and you are correct in that Beman still makes the Carbon Hunter and Carbon Flash---for some reason I hadn't seen them in my vendor catalogs since around 2001 or so and assumed they too were discontininued. Yep, I was wrong on that tidbit and am big enough to say so.

BUT--

Even so, I still believe that there is a darn GOOD reason (as I stated in previous posts) why manufacturers decided to go to wrapped products and have over time slowly started to fade these pultrudeds out, and it is from a technical viewpoint that I think so. Yes, I agree with JeffB in that some were in fact very straight---the Beman Divas were superb in this respect and were some of the best pultrudeds to be bought....

The Axis is another animal altogether. (tho I really don't know what, LOL) The runout on them is poor IMO, and so is the "suppository" insert with/guide-thingy technology---makes no sense to me from a practical application perspective, again JMHO.

I do agree we are squarely at the crossroads of Carbon shaft technology, and soon I believe someone is going to come up with the "whole package" for us, in fact it is getting very close. I have heard some murmurings about some new shafts that will soon be coming to market that may be right up your alley, Len---more to come before the ATA show on that.


Until then, I'll keep using my ICSCH, or ACC's. Good shooting, Pinwheel 12

LMAO

Good one Kevin!

Jeff:

Yes, I forgot that Bob wasn't around at that time. He makes such an impression, you think he's been around forever.

As far as the 3D hate of the pultrudeds, you're right. But, we've seen almost as much of a problem with the wrapped carbon inserts being left in the targets as well. As far as I can see, the only real difference is that the pultruded outserts went much deeper.

The problem a has been and will continue to be poorly assembled outserts/inserts. I personally find that it is easier to rough the outside surface of a pultruded than an inside surface of a wrapped carbon for better adhesion.

BTW, Muzzy does still make the glue-on broadheads for the pultruded arrows. In fact, I'm pretty sure several of their staff still use this combination.

PW12:

That "suppository insert" comment is great. LMAOROTF.

Like I said, I'm anxiously awaiting for them to get it together on the wrapped carbon technology. Right now, I'm not totally satisfied with what's offered.

Just this week we were amazed at the poor quality of a set of very expensive tournament wrapped carbons that we received for a customer. I would have sent them back but the customer decided to take them.[:'(] They looked as if the cut-off saw was a hacksaw.[:@]

BTW, can I become a member of T.O.A.S.T???

Like Satan.


Good to know. I've got Matt headed in that direction, and I may just end up there myself this year.

Hmm...Medallions? or Vectors?

I just spun a GoldTip ProHunter 75/95 I near robinhooded a few days back. The G-nock had split down the middle and the uni-bushing deflected the other arrow. I pulled the nock and bushing out, and put it on my bearing spinner... Back end (that was virtually perfectly straight when I set the arrows up) now is doing a hula dance. One new arrow T.O.A.S.T(ed)

And of course you can join Len (see my sig!)

You are hereby given the Official Title of Vice President & Head Engineer: Member ID # 002.

I'll get your ID card & Secret Decoder Ring out in the mail this week

BTW, the Secret Decoder Ring is used for deciphering Manufacturers literature/marketing/advertising to determine just how well spined and straight the arrows are.

Unfortunately I can only get it to work on Easton Aluminum & A/C/C literature[:-]

JeffB... I still have a tube of Beman "Carbon Hawk" shafts (5565) and about 24 glue on muzzys and 6 wasp CCL SSTs.. that I have never been used. Thinkin about fletch a few up for hunting season and just using those.. instead of "wasting" more $$$ on wrapped carbon arrows this year. I didn't realize that these "old" arrows were "that good"... was going to sell them in the classifieds for prolly next to nuthin... LOL

Actually just went through my old "junk" arrow box and found 3 of the above arrows w/ the the muzzys glued onto them w/ the practice blades in them. Now that I remember.. I shot those completely through 3/4" plywood, steel drums, and into concrete bricks.. and they're still looking brand new.

Ken,

The Hawks were the Beman "low end" shaft. Sold a ton of 'em back in their day. they shot pretty dang good..We just found their durability inconsistent (they were a lighter shaft like the original Beman Hunter with a thin wall). I had a couple cases where we dropped one on the floor of the shop and somebody would step on it and it shattered! And then we had those case like you where someone pounded the living crap out of them with no issues..The Hawks had a very visible seam compared to the Carbon Flash and Hunters and they would separate along that seam.

Are your CCLs the SST tip (Like a Muzzy)? or the "Diamond" tip (kinda like a Thunderhead)?

If your broadheads are 16/64" you may want to sell those Hawks and pick up a dozen of the new Bemans from Mountain Archery..$47.50 for shafts without components...grab some of the Glue in points, set up the rest w/ broadheads, and have fun