Bigpapascout, curious how your stance changes if the spine on the aluminum thicker heavier arrow is not "weak".

You seem to be comparing a stiff arrow versus one that is underspined. How does your interpretation change when equal spine is compared, with the only variables being diameter, weight and fps?

I think I read this in a fortune cookie once...

I believe (though am in no way speaking for BPS) he is saying that an overly stiff arrow will yield the same or better penetration with an exceedingly light arrow, compared to a properly spined heavy arrow.

The theory being because the shaft is so stiff, it retains more energy as there is no undue oscillation shedding said energy upon impact..especially compared to an aluminum arrow which has the most shaft oscillation.

The theory makes sense to a certain degree (if I have indeed interpreted it correctly), and I've got to admit, I'd like to grab me a Newberry (since it's warranteed with the light arrows) and some speed-pros' just to prove/disprove it myself. However, finances won't allow for the experiment and IIRC local game laws do not either (arrow weight is under the legal minimum).

Philosophy, or just plain 'ol common sense?

Wife and I had a rare childless evening last night. As we finished our chinese food, I unwrapped my fortune cookie, cracked it open and read "Opportunities exist wherever you look".

I looked over at her, and I'll be danged if it didn't come true...



Since Vic and I'd have to believe that speed freak Kevin (Strother) have shot these things, and given your connections, I'm sure a quick call would get you Bowtech Blessing to do some testing

Come on. You know you wanna do it. And I wanna see you do it.

I just visited Speed Pro's site, with their stiffest arrows, I would save 75 grains over my current finished ACCs. Go with a light broadhead, and shave another almost 50 off. That'd put me at at 4.28 grains per # and 3.57 grains per # respectively. Yikes...

Quick math says I'd gain 21-35 fps. Not a ton more, relatively, for a whole lot more potential problems...

you have surmised some what correctly however I will add that if you are shooting wuth a release off of a loop and youre bow is properly tuned I dont believe there is any sutch thing as an overly spined arrow,
however if you are still shooting fingers you have a paradox to contend with which makes it nessessiary to have a certan amount of oscelation to overcome the archers paradox IMO this is a handicap however I do commend the guys who still shoot fingers because frankly I cannot hit the broad side of a barn without a using release aid.

but you are right about the spine, the stiffer the spine the more energy it is able to absorb.
most people believe that the heavier the arrow the more energy it can store which is simply not true unless the spine is stiff enough to hold the energy that is being transfered from the bow to the arrow, for each time the arrow flexes energy and momentum is lost.

Well, let's see...

First off, you decide to set up your hunting rig with 2514 arrows. Big, fat, weak and fragile arrows designed to cut lines on a target rather than punch through ribs. An arrow that's far better suited for 20 yard indoor spot shooting than hunting. I assume you chose the 2514 because it is the lightest aluminum arrow that would spine correctly for your bow? I mean, you have to have flat trajectory for sniping at elk 50-60 yards downrange. I believe I remember you saying on another thread that's a commonplace tactic for you? That you MUST shoot 50-60 yards at elk where you hunt or you don't get one?

So... You made a conscious arrow selection that placed highest priority on speed and trajectory and little priority on strength and durability for hunting a relatively tough critter. You got unsatisfactory results. My-O-My! Who'da thunk it!

You'd have been served far better by living with a tiny bit more trajectory and a heavier, stronger, tougher arrow like the 2317. That's a hunting arrow.

Using the arrow weight calculator at Jacksons, assuming you use a 31" arrow, the difference in weight between the 2514 and 2317 would have been a mere 44 grains or thereabouts. With weights and trajectories being that close, I would definitely have gone with the stronger 2317 myself.

You are like every other guy I've ever run across who champions carbon arrows and pontificates on their 'superiority' over aluminum. TO A MAN you guys invariably choose to use weak, thin walled aluminum arrows to compare to carbons. Do your comparison to a sturdy aluminum arrow like the 2216, 2219, 2317 or 2419. At the end of that comparison, all you'll have to talk about is speed and trajectory.

Anyway, to answer your question, you made a terribly rotten choice using a 2514 for a hunting arrow, but it's not entirely your fault. IMO, Easton should have left 2514's on their target chart and never have put the blasted things on their hunting arrow chart

By the way, when it comes to lightweight hunting arrows, I ALWAYS recommend carbon - even with all their straightness and consistency problems - over puny, thin walled aluminums. I've detested thin wall aluminums ever since the ONLY dozen 2213's I ever bought. Shooting into excelsior bales over a week's time and every single one of them looked like they'd been in a wreck. Collapsed like an accordian. Not to mention that their speed bled off so bad downrange that my 50 and 60 yard pin gaps opened up considerably and my 80 yard stack was closer to what I'd have to shoot 90 for, when using my normal 2216's.

If there's a type of arrow I dislike more than carbon, it's thin walled aluminums. I'd rather shoot cedar than either of them.

But ACC's now... I have a high comfort level with them. Too bad my wallet doesn't. [&:]

Bigpapascout, in case you missed this, have you tested this way?

Range ball

first let me say that I test arrows that are by the charts suitable for the poundage that I am shooting.

I would imagine if you could get an aluminim 9/32 shaft the same stiffness as the arrows I shoot a heavier arrow would have good penetration values.
but larger diamiter shafts even if the spine is as stiff will not penetrate as deep as a smaller dia shaft because of friction.

speed is another factor that seems to be over looked concerning the lighter arrows

what you should keep in mind is that my current hunting arrow is traveling 350+ FPS off the string
and is traveling over 340 at 20 yards, speed does equal deeper penetration.

what I fail to understand why so many people are so bent to discredit this phenomenon without really examining it.

I have been a bow hunter over 30 years and trust me if I did not get such good results from shooting these arrows I certanly would not be using them!

I am not here to try to get people to change over to light weight arrows

i just want people not to be so quick to criticize something that they dont fully understand, I get so sick of the nay sayers who are totally ignorant to the concept, when I say ignorant I am not calling any one stupid but un willing to study the concept for them selves or un learned.
see what I am trying to say?

I remember when the 65precent let off bows were introduced, every one said it will never work now we have 80percent let off bows
if it was not for people thinking outside of the box we would all be shooting with flint broadheads tied to a stick and hand carved long bows.
people want more speed and the only way to achieve this is to shoot lighter arrows and like it or not that is the direction the industry is headed.

Don't really know the correct answer to your question, but I'm sure that out of your setup, they'll be adequate momentum remaining after the arrow has gone through the deer.