Finally shot a Liberty........and a ???
 

I looked at one back in Dec. and I'll fall back on what I said then !!

Nice bow, balanced well , smooth draw cycle (better than my Outback but not a "whole" lot) !!

Well I finally shot one yesterday and have to say the camo looked a lot better than the one's I looked at in Dec. !! It was pretty quiet ! It didn't have any kick and stayed stable in my hand through the shot !!

???

But man .......I was really suprised at the hand shock !! Nothing a good stabilizer couldn't tame........but much more than I expected !!

It was a bare Liberty with just a hush kit , string loop, and a WB B2 QS deluxe !!

Are they all like that or could this one have a timing issue or something........I mean bare bow to bare bow.......it is a significant difference over my Outback !!

RE: Finally shot a Liberty........and a ???
 

CBM, my thoughts exactly. I was really taken back by that. It does seem to have a more pronounced "shock" than some of the others I shot. Yes, a stab will take care of it. When I shot it, it seemed to want to "jump" out of my hand too much.

Its a great, great bow though. Quiet and smoother than any bow I've shot.


I'd shoot one in a heart beat if I was still looking for a bow and the Xtec didn't exist.;)

RE: Finally shot a Liberty........and a ???
 

So what are we talking about here? The way I interpreted CBM's post he felt that the bow had alot of vibration at the shot. The way I am interpreting MM's post the bow had alot of recoil.

Which is it?...or was it each for each of you gentleman?

If the bow had recoil then I would be willing to bet it was a timing issue. A quick check of the cam timing marks should help to determine that. If it was vibration then I would question where the vibrablocks were mounted on the limbs. That can have a signficant difference on the shot feel of the bow.

I am not entirely surprised in CBM's case though when considering the two bows being compared. I believe the mass weight and mass weight distribution comparison between the two bows in question is the answer to the perceived difference in shot feel.

RE: Finally shot a Liberty........and a ???
 

I was talking about handshock.........not re-coil ! "A lot" is not the right word maybe..........but more than I would have expected out of a VFT style bow !

But now that you mention it........I think the vibra-blocks were all the way up by the limb pockets ! If they are farther back up the limb......does it make much of a difference ??

RE: Finally shot a Liberty........and a ???
 

CBM,

Handshock = Vibration or are we talking about some other characteristic here?

Let me answer your last question with a question. Did you ever put a pair of limbsavers down by the limb pocket? :)

I am a bit perplexed with this one though not for the reason you may think. I have been placing the vibrablocks up close the limb forks because that is where I notice the most effectiveness. However, all of the Bowtech bows are shipped with the vibrablocks close to the limb pockets and I was under the understanding that this was simply for the shipping process.....yet I also saw something recently which suggested that they should be placed near the limb pockets to increase affectiveness.

I guess this means that it is time to experiment again. ;)

RE: Finally shot a Liberty........and a ???
 

Vibration in then grip and the palm of my hand (I guess I call that handshock)........noticable.....about like my Ultra 2 was..........far from what my Outback is like !!

The vibrablocks were probably about an inch above the limb pockets !!

RE: Finally shot a Liberty........and a ???
 

Frank.

We must have been watching the same TV show cause I seen that too and did experiment on my BK.

I moved them down to the pockets and the bow had a slight buzz (for the want of a better word) in my hand so I started to move them back up the limb and 1" at a time the higher I went with them the buzz decreased until I got them back into the spot I originally had them with no buzz at all.

RE: Finally shot a Liberty........and a ???
 

Its tough to make a fair comparison - bare bow to bare bow.

I have found Vibration to be due to a few things.

A bow backed off in poundage tends to vibrate more.

Whats on the string is real important. take the Mathews rubber string stops off and install Bowtechs hush kits on it - would be a more fair comparison.

I still think leaches work better than the stock kit on Bowtech.

Add enough weight to the Liberty so it weighs the same as the Outback would also be a better comparison.

A bow with a longer DL will vibrate more than one of the same with shorter DL.

I have found both bows to be very "vibration free"

RE: Finally shot a Liberty........and a ???
 

Rack........not trying to bash the Liberty.......it is a nice bow !

BTW- Poundage was maxed

Do you think the string supressors take some of the vibration going through the riser ? I guess I have just thought of them affecting string noise !!

Weight- I know what your saying........but at the same time......that is one of the cheif complaints about the Outback !!

Shot a 29" Liberty.........my Outback is a 30" !

RE: Finally shot a Liberty........and a ???
 

My reason to buy my frist Bow in 10 years is mostly for speed alone. Thus thinking Bowtech Patriot or such; could you please tell me what the settings on the vibrablocks, could or may have on the speed of the bow if any, it appears when a bow is test shoot they have nothing on them but an knocking point?

RE: Finally shot a Liberty........and a ???
 

String noise is cause by string vibration - and yes I think it makes its way to the riser.

its the limbs and the string that cause most of felt vibration. Thats why limb savers and leaches can take most of it away.

Don't worry about bashing:D - you felt vibration and I believe you. My point is that just a small change (like sliding a leach or squid up an inch can completly take it away. A string vibrates in a sign wave. If the string supressors happen to be place at a "node" they will not work as well. And many other factors can come into play to cause any one bow to have more vibration than another.

Its just hard to get a full feel of a bow with a few shots - without making sure apples are being compared to apples.

Good luck with the Outback:D

RE: Finally shot a Liberty........and a ???
 

I know BowTech says otherwise, but IMO the VBs (or Limbsavers) work best towards the axle side where the limb just starts to thicken up. It will have a little less recoil & vibe when placed there. But I do believe they are a bit quieter when the damping material (VB) is closer to the pocket).

RE: Finally shot a Liberty........and a ???
 

I just got to read all of the replies to this message. Man, I figured my comment and CBM's would cause some commotion in the Bowtech faithful crowd here:D. I was referring to recoil mostly, but it did rattle some during the shot when I shot it. Not sure of the timing thing but I couldn't imagine Bowtech would ship a brand new bow way out of whack to cause it. The bow wanted to really jump out of my hand during the shot. I realize that placement of the vibration damping thingy's Bowtech uses can affect this to an extent, but wow!

After shooting it, the Vipertec and the Xtec. I can honestly say, bare bow, he Vipertec had the least vibration and recoil. I didn't shoot the Mathews bows after pulling one back. Not for me.

RE: Finally shot a Liberty........and a ???
 

Three words when it comes to testing bows and finding no hand shock--


MERLIN MAX XTREME.

There is virtually none in this offering. And also--- this bow has no vast array of Sims products on it like so many other bows do this year. Hmmm, wonder how it will be AFTER all of the "bolt-on" stuff is on it?;)

Think---If the manufacturers of the conventional solocams felt they could for one minute get away with NOT installing all of the extra vibration-reducing goodies on their bows stock from the factory, (especially while the archery public is very critical of any handshock or recoil) don't you think they would save their money and do so? Of course! But with the dynamic balance of most Conventional solos today being what it is, well, you are just going to get that recoil "kick", and handshock with all of them to some degree, even with parallel design. Thus we see all of this stuff with NV systems and other vibration gizmos sticking out from every angle and nook and cranny, along with leeches, limbsavers, blocks, wraps, etc, on many of the offerings this year. Interesting to note that most all of them are conventional solos too. Hmmm.

Speaking of parallel design, all current manufacturers of parallel designs may soon be "scrambling" from what I hear through the grapevine ---word has it XI (now owned by Escalade Sports) is looking at patent infringment because of a clause in one of their patents from when they made the flatliner series of bows stating something about limb pocket angle. If true then that would be a huge "coup" for them, and the payoff dollar value(behind the scenes of course) would be enormous---think of how many parallel limb bows have been sold in the past decade that they could get a piece of![:o]

Anyway, that is just rumor at this point....back to the post...

I dunno if it is because the Max-Xtreme has paraBOLIC instead of paraLLEL limbs, or simply due to the geomtery in the overall design of the bow and cam system, combo of both, or what-- but if you haven't shot one, you really need to before claiming these other bows are the "Best".....while admittedly "good", there are better choices than just the "popular" conventional solocams that everyone knows about. Others have stated above that the hoyt with cam.5 is very quiet, and I've noticed the Dartons with their CPS do not have all of the extra vibration gizmos on them either.....HMMMMM. Better dynamic balance due to the cams being symmetrical, and limbtip travel being consistent MAY just have more to do with vibration and/or lack of it than one thinks? JMHO. Good shooting, Pinwheel 12

RE: Finally shot a Liberty........and a ???
 

I think we are on the same page just different terms. :)

Yes. I did a little experimenting last night and there is a noticeable buzz/change in pitch as the vibrablocks are moved down towards the limb pockets.

We must have been. :)

I have not tested to see if moving the vibrablocks up and down the limbs have any effect on speed though my guess, initially, would be "no" and if they do then it would be insignificant....1-2 fps tops. Heck, Bowtech advertises a 3-5 fps speed loss with the entire hush kit installed and my guess is that those 3-5 fps are mostly from the squidees on the string/cable.

Yes, most companies use a tied-in nockset to test the speed rating for their bows. Bowtech has a nice little chart in the owners manual that clearly explains expected speed loss due to various string accessories, changes in arrow weight, etc....

I think a vast majority of the Bowtech crowd realize that no bow is perfect and can thus accept some of the potential deficiencies for their particular model. That is one of the reasons they probably choose to shoot them in the first place......having the intelligence and understanding to understand compound bow technology and design. :)...at least in my case....:eek::D

RE: Finally shot a Liberty........and a ???
 

That's why I asked this question !! I didn't feel like people would be making the comparison's they are ......if all the Liberty's felt like the one I shot.....the way it was set up ! Figured that something had to be up !! Thanks for clearing it up !!

RE: Finally shot a Liberty........and a ???
 

Not to bash heads or make this a product war but.......

again, you can't really compare the Max Xtreme - when its 15 to 20 fps slower than the other bows we are speaking of.

A fine bow the Max is. But if it where doing 315fps like the Patriot or LX - then maybe Merlin would need to add some "Sims stuff" to it.

Just my thoughts:D

RE: Finally shot a Liberty........and a ???
 

Just one question, how can "limb tip travel" not be consistent??[&:]

RE: Finally shot a Liberty........and a ???
 

Mose of us "BowTech faithful" realize that opinions can't be argued, if they aren't biased. Got a death grip on your bow? You'll "feel " more shock and vibration on any bow you shoot, compaired to a relaxed and open handed push against the grip that allows the bow to move forward at the shot. Good luck with your's;)

RE: Finally shot a Liberty........and a ???
 

Rack-

Honestly, I can compare any bow I choose, just as you can dispute them....and 15-20 fps isn't going to make a world of difference in a bow that has awesome geometry IMHO. Shoot the Max-Xtreme with a IBO legal arrow at any poundage, and for that matter even one 40 grains light at the same poundage, and you can get a good idea of what kind of shock level will be coming out of it when it is faster....I've done it, still nothing. Merlin bows are not about speed, they are about precise accuracy and forgiveness. The bow was made specifically with bowhunting in mind, and bowhunting is about exact shot placement at known distances, (usually less than 40 yds) so speed is not a factor--- but quiet, smooth drawing characteristics, no vibration, no recoil, and decent brace height, along with confidence in your equipment are.;)

WWAG--

Yes, different bows can have vastly differing limbtip travel, and this can cause a variety of affects on holding, followthrough, and ultimately accuracy---slap your favorite bow in a crankboard, run it out to full draw, pencil around the limbtips. Back it down halfway, pencil again. Measure between the two sets of marks on each end---are they the same? If not, then you have inconsistent limbtip travel, and this is the result of poor dynamic balance and more often than not, you will notice a "kick" which is really unneccessary if designed correctly. If you don't believe me, ask Norb Mullaney, Larry Wise, or Emery Loiselle (now retired) about Dynamic balance, consistent limbtip travel, and their relation with vibration, recoil, shooting characteristics, and accuracy. Good shooting, Pinwheel 12

RE: Finally shot a Liberty........and a ???
 

WWAG, no death grip here bud:) Please don't take my "Bowtech Faithful" comment the wrong way, I was just ribbin you all a little:D I really like the Bowtech's and usually always refer people who ask to them.

RE: Finally shot a Liberty........and a ???
 

No problem, some brands,,, like the rest of us just mean more to us than the other brands. Like the reason I'll drive Chevys the rest of my life. I can still remember the day my dad brought home that brand new 1963 Chevy Impala,,, with the 340 horse 409;) The dealer that sold that car to him treated him like a king and that impression has stuck with me all these years. I've experienced the same service from the same company and I'll stay with them. Good luck with yours.

RE: Finally shot a Liberty........and a ???
 

Now I really lost all respect for you. Why did you have to go and drag a perfectly good thread right through the mud with that comment?


[8D]

RE: Finally shot a Liberty........and a ???
 

Dad paid $1895.00 for that '63 Impala brand new,,, care to guess what it's probably worth today??;) It was a 2 door hardtop also, black with black interior. Like in Steve Earl's song "Copper Head Road" I still remember that rumblin' sound:D

RE: Finally shot a Liberty........and a ???
 

Sounds like he had a good dealer, not a good car ;)

Just funnin with ya Russ :)

RE: Finally shot a Liberty........and a ???
 

Oh you hush up! You've got NO room to talk!

RE: Finally shot a Liberty........and a ???
 

Don't ya just love it when someone comes in to a thread about two particulars and then entirely changes the subject to something not even being discussed or considered.:)

And then he bashes bows that use sims or similar gear when the bows he promotes has nearly a pound of rubber laminated right on the limbs.

What does the rubber laminates on Merlins do Kevin? A.) Absorb vibrations, B.) cover cracks C.) make up for flaking bad paint jobs or D.) all of the above?

And I don't believe anyone can get a patent on a limb pocket angle, that seems silly to me. :):D

RE: Finally shot a Liberty........and a ???
 

You'd be surprised what people can patent! :)

RE: Finally shot a Liberty........and a ???
 

If I recall correctly, the XI bows did not have a drastic limb angle. They achieved parallel limb tip movement by pre-bending the limbs and had a more vertical pocket.;)

Also nice to know that Dartons are finally quieter than the Hoyts.[8D]

On the Bowtechs I have owned, the placement of the vibrablocks did affect the vibration. I would be willing to do a test if anyone would be willing to send me a Liberty and an Outback to compare.[&:]

RE: Finally shot a Liberty........and a ???
 

I'd be surprised if they couldn't patent it. If it's something that hasn't been done before, then they can probably patent it. However, this situation may be a bit different. I doubt that it would be easy to patent every unused angle that exists. It would seem that companies would only have to use angles that weren't patented. When there's a grey area, the issue of defending the patent comes up. Does the company have the resources to defend against multiple companies in a situation where they might not win?

So, even though it may be patented, it may be just as likely that a company will challenge it.

RE: Finally shot a Liberty........and a ???
 

Ratus--

Yep, I guess people simply don't care to know about any alternative options that COULD prove to be useful to them....yes, admittedly the 'commercial" may not have come at the appropriate time in this particular thread, so guilty on that charge and I apologize.

And to answer your other "digs".....

I was pointing out technical attributes/fallicies of equipment, and stating my opinion just as everyone else is entitiled to here. If you feel that is bashing, then that is your right to think that I suppose. No, I do not like conventional solocam designs and never have, because I feel they have many fallicies when compared to a pure twin cam, and even more when compared to a hybrid. Again, this is JMHO.

Altho Merlins carry Syntech laminates on their limbs, they do not have all of the screw-in gizmos, leeches, wraps, and other stuff on them, and they are STILL just as quiet if not moreso than many of the bows that do---plus they do not exhibit that "kick" of poor dynamic balance, IMHO. (Notice I said IN MY OPINION.;))

As far as to why the syntech laminates are on the limbs--A)Yes, they certyainly do absorb high-frequency vibrations. B) They do not cover cracks, because: #1 there are no cracks in the Pro-Fusion 3 limbs to begin with, and #2 the sides are open anyway so you would still be able to see them if there were any. C) Sure! Why paint at all if you do not have to, especially when you are under heavy National restrictions and the paint has the possibility of being soft? Plus you protect the face and back of each limb at the same time! THAT is stupid to you???? Better get used to it, I know other manufacturers who thought the idea was VERY novel and I guarantee and you will see more of them in the future. D) See my replies-- yes, all of the above.

As far as things such as patented limb pocket angles being "silly to you", that is certainly your right to have your opinion. But those in the industry who are PART of the industry, may not totally agree with you. Patent infringement is a growing concern within the industry among designers and manufacturers, simply because there are virtually THOUSANDS of patents that are encroached upon every time someone designs a bow or cam. Alot of times it is simply "allowed" with no litigation brought forward, but on items that could potentially make the manufacturer alot of money, then the original designer usually wants a piece of the pie, and one cannot blame them....after all, THEY invented it. (or at least submitted the patent;))

That's it. Again, sorry if I highjacked the thread, that was wrong of me. Everythng else I felt was good info. Good shooting, Pinwheel 12

RE: Finally shot a Liberty........and a ???
 

[ What are you talking about? Doesn't everyone drive a high quality Korean car to work everyday?

;)

RE: Finally shot a Liberty........and a ???
 

Well, I remember running over a high quality Korean car one time while hauling 31 tons of rock to a concrete plant[:@] Can you say,,, tin can??