RE: Check, re-check, re-tune your arrows.
 

PatapscoMike: I'm not in any way trying to be confrontational on this subject. Your continued usage of the comparison between fishing rods and arrows is, to me, a little like comparing apples and oranges. An arrow is a launched projectile that must be straight in order to fly straight. It must sustain a 200+ mph launch in a nano-second and stop almost as fast. The fishing rod scenario, on the other hand, is a static device that undergoes a 'bending' momentum. While it's nice, and very helpful that an arrow can be bent an return to it's initial position, it's not, IMPO, as critical as needed a very straight launch vehicle. After all, a crooked arrow, whether it be aluminum, carbon, wood, etc., will fly crooked until sufficient drag coefficients assist in its flight down a relative straight line. I believe that carbons are superior in ruggedness and recover quicker off the string. That being said, their downfall is the straightness issue which is being addressed in time. Knowing the whole story, IMPO, is better than believing half truths.

Yes, I concede that a carbon arrow will bend and return at a greater angle than an aluminum arrow. I just don't see your point about the issue at hand. I'm just advising members of this and other forums as to what to look for in choosing arrows. I don't think I mentioned any personal preference at any time in any of my threads about arrows. I state, as a matter of fact, the positives and negatives of each. I do, however, think that your continued challenge and inferences about fishing usage verses archery are not true to the point.

Dalejbrass: No, I would not condone people 'selecting' arrows in my shop. This would leave all the 'less than desirable' arrows to the unknowing. I even supply arrow spinners in my shop at strategic locations so that the customers, sometimes with my assistance, can select the ones that are best for broadheads and those which would do better for FT practicing.

If I were to try to send arrows back to the manufacturers, which I did consider, I would be 'black listed' with every supplier of arrows in this country. It is much better if thousands of customers would send them back. This way the suppliers would soon get the message and we would all then get better product. At the least, maybe they would stop advertising those ridicules specs. I don't condone the 'screw the next guy or shop owner' principle. Fair is fair, and the next guy or shop owner shouldn't be jammed because one person wants to pay the same price but get the advantage over everyone else.

I'm not saying that you're trying to do this; but, the end result, if practiced by many would be detrimental to just about every one but the supplier/manufacturer.

Sometimes it gets to a point where some of us don't even want to post things like this because of all the negative comments, innuendoes, and challenges beyond the subject matter.[&o]

RE: Check, re-check, re-tune your arrows.
 

:D:D[8D] Len, you are a retailer in the Archery Business--therefore like me, you are already on "the black list"!![8D][8D]:D Send 'em back anyway!!LOL. (inside joke, sorry)

I've got 4 dozen original AFC 2200 camo shafts sitting on the shelf collecting dust complete with a variety of nocks, point outserts, etc if that will help......;)

OK, enough playing....:)

I've shot Beman ICS Camo hunters for three years now and they are great for hunting IMHO. I have one that went thru a 6pt and one that went thru a Turkey last year that are now being shot almost every day on our test range, blood smeared and all.(conversation pieces!;)) Not a problem with either of them--still straight, spine still seems fine as both were complete passthroughs and stuck in the ground on the other side. (yes, I was the first one to shoot these arrows again afterwards!) Remember, I do not shoot thousands of shots out of my hunting arrows either---that is very important--use different shafts for different applications, don't be cheap because as Len stated they are a very important 1/3 of your setup.

The biggest problem I see is not the technology, but in that the manufacturers are not only selling the "good" shafts, but they also sell the "seconds" (or worse) too as a "lesser" grade. This I find is where many issues come to the forefront with runout and spine degradation---lots of guys also expect the $50 shafts to be the same as the $100 shafts and that is simply not the case in most instances. I'm currently shooting Litespeed 500's in my 3D rig and they have held up very, very well for being a middle of the road"speed" shaft. The Larry Wise Phantoms are also a fine carbon, along with the Supercarbon Supremes. And of course my ICSCH Bemans are a standard for me and will once again be going with me to my stands this year. I also do not use any all carbon without first putting unibushings in the rear, and running "G" or Beiter symmetrical nocks. Saves on loose/broken nocks and split shaft ends.

I will be shooting ACC's or ACE's for field and FITA shooting again this year tho, as stated much like the rest of your equipment you gotta use the best choice for each individual application at hand. ;) Good shooting, Pinwheel 12

RE: Check, re-check, re-tune your arrows.
 

I've read several articles over the years (including one just today in Bowhunting World) talking about floating shafts to find the heavy side. Yet I also have a very thought-provoking article by Michelle Ragsdale lampooning the whole concept. (She called author of one article "Bathtub Boy.") So I don't really know if it's worth going to that much trouble or not.

RE: Check, re-check, re-tune your arrows.
 

BTM-

The floating of arrows to find high spine is just another one of those steps towards perfection of setup---some will poo-poo it, some will not, but from a purely technical standpoint it only makes sense to me because if the arrows are all fletched the same with a vane running along the high spine (or 180degrees from it) then all of your arrows will paradox and fly exactly the same. I know Tru-Flight offers their Pro-Series arrows electronically measured to the high-spine with the cock vanes starting directly on it, then they fletch from there. It pretty much is alot like those who match weigh their components, versus those who do not---those who do have a definate advantage on the tournament trail IMHO because a couple of grains at 40, 50, 60 yds can mean alot of difference on impact points, and make no mistake even while hunting the additional confidence in knowing that your equipment is as fine-tuned as possible is a benefit everyone can live with.;)

Fill up the tub with about 3" of water, toss some of your favorite powdered detergent on top, put little pieces of cork in the arrow ends and float them, the same pieces of cork on the same ends of each arrow--do nothing "different" with any of them. Mark the tops when they stop rolling with a dab from a whiteout brush or something. Only takes a minute to do a dozen arrows. Take them out, dry them, match weigh your components, and build them starting out with a vane directly opposite of the mark of each arrow. Then weigh them again. The closer, the better. Again, this falls into line with your abilites as to how far you want to go, but just knowing that your equipment is as good as it can be is a great confidence builder. JMHO, Pinwheel 12

RE: Check, re-check, re-tune your arrows.
 

I hope that never becomes the case Len but I have to say that some of the topics you are touching on are controversial at best. I would expect to see some turbulent responses considering the subject material. Not everyone a) understands the perspective that you bring to the table nor b) understands how some of their comments may be interpreted via written words on a page. Truth or not folks are going to want to continue to argue about issues like carbon/aluminum, mech/fixed, single/dual/hybrid, etc... simply because an opposing opinion is not what they want to hear.

RE: Check, re-check, re-tune your arrows.
 

I heard once that the impact of an arrow creates instantaneous temperatures of 700 degrees F at the tip. I suppose that repeated shots would cause a breakdown in the carbon resin.

RE: Check, re-check, re-tune your arrows.
 

mrfritz44: What you're stating has validity. I don't know the absolute temperatures generated, and it would vary on the material being used to stop the arrow, but I won't shoot into compressed styrofoam any more. A friend of mine had a target bale made of compressed 'fast food' cups. His aluminum arrows, traveling a slower speed, were a little tough to get out of the bale. My carbon arrows, traveling much faster and penetrating more, were almost impossible to get out. When we did finally get my arrows removed, there was styrofoam material 'melted' to the shafts.

RE: Check, re-check, re-tune your arrows.
 

I didn't mean to be controversial Len- I'm simply posting my opinion which happens to be different than yours. I always assume it's in good fun to have differences of opinion- it's just a message board.

We all know that both carbon and aluminum can make a fine and very functional arrow. But I find the back-and-forth of debating to be fun and interesting, and as long as everyone keeps a good attitude and doesn't make it personal or take it personally, it can be very instructive to hear both sides. I am at your shop more than you realize, and I know you are a fine bowhunter and very knowledgeable "pro." I have taken your advice on a great many things, and will continue to do so. But when I disagree, I'm going to give you a hard time. I expect you to do the same. It's all in good fun.

Now, as to finding the 'heavy side' of arrows in a tub- that is about the silliest thing I can imagine. Arrows spin- that heavy side goes around and around. Who cares where it starts, it can't possibly matter. Now finding the spine of the arrow (the point of weakest flex)- that makes a lot of sense! You don't want the arrow flexing down down into the rest or sideways into the side of the bow...

RE: Check, re-check, re-tune your arrows.
 

Mike, et al: I've been burning the candle at both ends lately. My store manager is no longer with me and I'm changing/remodeling everything as well as taking up the slack.

My fuze might be short and I apologize.;)

RE: Check, re-check, re-tune your arrows.
 

Great post, I was having my bow paper tuned and was shooting great with the 3 arrows i was using to papertest, After purchasing another 1/2 dozen of the same arrow and paper testing on the same day, 3 out of the six arrows gave me the proper hole in the paper. It had me ready to go back to me old easton aluminums