Compact binoc ramblings....
03-02-2004, 11:26 AM
#1
Fork Horn
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Kenosha, Wi USA
Posts: 499
Compact binoc ramblings....
I’m posting this in hopes of helping others that have been searching for "that set" of compact binoculars. I had been wanting a smaller pair of binos for indoor target shooting and didn’t want a large pair to lug around and have all that weight around my neck or belt on the shooting line. Also, I like compacts for hunting in my treestand where I can have a small pair in my Cat Quiver backpack. And having them in a backpack for a season of hunting means that they are going to get dirty, possibly wet, and possibly beat up a little. I don't want a thousand dollar set of binos to get that abuse either.
So I started my quest to find me the best pair of small or compact binos that fit my needs. And I guess that’s the key phrase, “to fit my needs”. Because the more I compared binos, and the more that I looked through, I came to the conclusion that there is no one perfect pair. There is always tradeoffs in some regards- to gain something in one category, you’re most likely giving up something in another, whether it be size, light gathering, weight, clarity, price, etc… Luckily, I could afford to get just about any priced compacts, but like anyone I want the best value for my money. Obviously I can't test EVERY 10x25 bino out there, but here are some that drew my interest.
From previous binos I’ve had, I knew I was wanting something in the 10x25 roof prism range. Four years ago I had purchased a pair of the Nikon Sportstar II’s 10x25. At the time they were around $110 and I remember that I was very impressed with their clarity compared to the big names and was willing to give a bit on performance, but the price was just right. Over the years I have looked through those glasses hundreds and hundreds of times- I know their drawbacks and their strengths, so it was a solid starting point to launch my new search.
I had been hearing very good things about Cabela’s Alaskan Guide series of binos which claim to be comparable to the big European names at significantly less cost. They offer a 10x28 Alaskan Guide compact for $199, so I thought I would start there. Also, Pentax offers a 10x28 binocular ($229). For comparison of some of the more well known names, I obtained a pair of Zeiss Classic 10x25 Compacts ($269) and upon recommendation of some several serious bino people for the “best of the best compacts”, the Nikon Venturer LX 10x25 ($349). I had multiple people let me know that these Venturers seemed to be brighter and clearer than the Zeiss Victory 10x25, or the Leica 10x25’s , and for a little less cash. The Swaro 10x25 are just way too expensive at $500+ so they did not even enter into the comparisons. That’s just too much dang cash for compacts that might get abused a bit. And just for lower-end comparison I thought I’d try the updated newer version of my old stand-by’s, the Nikon Sportstar III’s 10x25 ($70).
For my comparison “tests”, I compared the binos in daylight, but most any bino will work ok then. The real differences showed up when viewing at dusk, viewing at night with minimal light (or street lights), and trying to read newspaper ads at 12 yds in my basement with varying light levels. Just to let you know, I don’t wear glasses so I can’t comment on how all these binos work with glass wearers. And when I mentioned the differences between the binos, they aren’t necessarily GLARING differences, but can be rather subtle while still noticeable. All of these are 10x binos. Most of these binos have 8x brother models, but I have not tested ANY of them, so if you’re wanting some 8x compact binos this write up is not for you. The differences in comparing all the 8x compacts is another round of comparing and may come out with entirely different comparison results.
First off, the Cabela AG 10x28’s are fairly impressive for the money. They are very compact (4.6”), very light (8.6oz), and gather a lot of light for their size. For me the downside was that I didn’t care for their eyecup design. It felt like a cheaper build, and while Cabela’s is nothing short of exemplary when it comes to customer service, I still felt uneasy about getting repairs or service 10 years down the road compared to known brand names. The AG’s have a dual hinge design, some people like the dual hinge, some don’t. Clarity was very good, but after comparing the Pentax 10x28’s with the AG’s, I thought the Pentax came out a bit ahead. To me the Pentax had a better feel in the hands, better build quality, and slightly better clarity of image. But the downside of the Pentax model is that it is larger (wider) and much heavier (16.2oz). The focus knob of the Pentax is positioned better and is easier to use on the fly, and they have a single center hinge design. And there’s some of the tradeoffs- do you want lighter/smaller for a little less clarity and ease of use, or do you want a little bigger/heavier and easier to use and a tad better sight picture?
I pulled out my old trusty Nikon Sporstar II’s to see how they would hold up against the new guys in town. Well they certainly don’t have the light gathering ability that the AG’s or the Pentax does, and that wasn’t too difficult to see once the light started fading. Not a terrible difference, but still noticeable in waning light. But where I WAS surprised is that the clarity of the Sportstar II’s in good light was as good, if not better. I almost couldn’t believe that I could read newspaper print better with my old bino’s than I could with either the AG’s or Pentax. Now I know why I liked them so much years ago.
The Zeiss Classic’s are the dual hinge design and have the clarity and light gathering that Zeiss is known for, but I didn’t care for the limited eye relief of those binos, the small eyecups, or the built-in neck cord. But they are very small and compact (4.7”, 7.1oz)- the fold up into a “Z” shape for storage. But, the Nikon Venturer’s were better in every category. Better design, better clarity, better light gathering, yet small and compact (4.3” 10.9oz), These are very impressive compacts, but they should be for $349. The edge-to-edge clarity was better than any of the others. And that’s part of the problem of bino shopping- once you start comparing higher end models and see the differences, it’s tough to go back to lower end products. Nikon doesn’t get the recognition of their top of the line Venturer series as does the Swarovski, Leica, and Zeiss names. I suppose it’s because Nikon also makes very affordable models and everything in between. But from every serious bird watcher and binocular “know-it-all” that I’ve talked to says the same thing: that the Venturer line is EVERY bit as good (and maybe better) than the big name European models. But they are just as pricey. These are awesome compacts and I thought I found my new favorites.
On a whim I decided to test one last 10x25 pair, but of a different flavor. And that was the Nikon Mountaineer II ATB’s ($219) and I had read many good things about. They are a porro-prism design but not too terribly heavy or bulky (4.3” 15.9oz), but they are about as wide as the Pentax, and a lot wider than the Venturer’s. They are rubber coated, water proof, and have an all-metal chassis. Being a porro prism design, they may not be quite as bullet-proof as the roof prims, but these Mountaineer’s seem to be built very well. And with Nikon’s “No Fault” warranty I wouldn’t be worried. I’ve used Nikon warranty service a few years ago when I dropped my binos from a treestand. They landed directly on the only stump within 20yds in any direction.
It wasn’t pretty. But Nikon kept up their part of the warranty- send in $10 with the binos and they will repair or replace, even if it’s due to my stupidity. I got them back as good as new a few weeks later.
The Mountaineer’s are some beautiful binos. Clear, sharp, bright- everything I could ask for. The porro design must allow for better light transmission because they gathered slightly more light than the Venturers which cost quite a bit more. I was very surprised. Viewing at night and with street lighting I could see a little further into the shadows and pick out more clarity with the Mountaineers than ANY other 10x25 I’ve tried so far. Keep in mind that it wasn’t a huge difference between them and the Venturers, but when you look at the price tags it becomes a significant parameter. They have a single center hinge and a nicely placed focus knob along with click-stop diopter wheel.
The downside to the Mountaineer’s is that they don’t have the field of view that some of the others do, in fact it may be one of the most narrow fields of view of any 10x25. For trying to follow fast action or pick out a moving target at a distance that might be a factor to consider. They are a bit more bulky and heavy than most of the other compacts, but once again it comes down to the tradeoffs you’re willing to make. All this got me to thinking about other 10x25 porro designs, all others seem to be in the $100-125 range. Several bino shops told me the same thing- that the Mountaineer’s are well beyond ANY other 10x25 porro, they sort of are in a class by themselves. And for me, the Mountaineer’s are my new favorites. Ok, so they don’t have the “true” compactness that will fit into a shirt pocket, but they will easily fit into a backpack or can be worn on a belt. And they obviously aren't in the roof prism compact category that I started my search with. To me, the little bit of a larger/heavier size is worth it as they outperformed the best of the roof prism compacts. Keep in mind that we are just talking about 10x25 sizes. All bets are off once you get into larger sizes like 10x30’s or 10x40’s. That’s a whole different ballgame.
p.s. …..And being curious if I should upgrade my alternate pair of throw-around backpack Sportstar II’s to the Sportstar III’s, I compared my old binos to the newer model. I thought that maybe Nikon would’ve improved the optics or the light gathering ability with the new version. I was a little disappointed. While the III’s have a wider field of view, the light gathering was not as good as my II’s and I felt that the color of image was a bit brownish. The III’s feel cheaper in design as well. I’ll stick with my Sportstar II’s. Between my Sportstar II's and the Mountaineer ATB’s, I got all my bases covered for now in the 10x25 range.
Now onto the 10x42 size...
So I started my quest to find me the best pair of small or compact binos that fit my needs. And I guess that’s the key phrase, “to fit my needs”. Because the more I compared binos, and the more that I looked through, I came to the conclusion that there is no one perfect pair. There is always tradeoffs in some regards- to gain something in one category, you’re most likely giving up something in another, whether it be size, light gathering, weight, clarity, price, etc… Luckily, I could afford to get just about any priced compacts, but like anyone I want the best value for my money. Obviously I can't test EVERY 10x25 bino out there, but here are some that drew my interest.
From previous binos I’ve had, I knew I was wanting something in the 10x25 roof prism range. Four years ago I had purchased a pair of the Nikon Sportstar II’s 10x25. At the time they were around $110 and I remember that I was very impressed with their clarity compared to the big names and was willing to give a bit on performance, but the price was just right. Over the years I have looked through those glasses hundreds and hundreds of times- I know their drawbacks and their strengths, so it was a solid starting point to launch my new search.
I had been hearing very good things about Cabela’s Alaskan Guide series of binos which claim to be comparable to the big European names at significantly less cost. They offer a 10x28 Alaskan Guide compact for $199, so I thought I would start there. Also, Pentax offers a 10x28 binocular ($229). For comparison of some of the more well known names, I obtained a pair of Zeiss Classic 10x25 Compacts ($269) and upon recommendation of some several serious bino people for the “best of the best compacts”, the Nikon Venturer LX 10x25 ($349). I had multiple people let me know that these Venturers seemed to be brighter and clearer than the Zeiss Victory 10x25, or the Leica 10x25’s , and for a little less cash. The Swaro 10x25 are just way too expensive at $500+ so they did not even enter into the comparisons. That’s just too much dang cash for compacts that might get abused a bit. And just for lower-end comparison I thought I’d try the updated newer version of my old stand-by’s, the Nikon Sportstar III’s 10x25 ($70).
For my comparison “tests”, I compared the binos in daylight, but most any bino will work ok then. The real differences showed up when viewing at dusk, viewing at night with minimal light (or street lights), and trying to read newspaper ads at 12 yds in my basement with varying light levels. Just to let you know, I don’t wear glasses so I can’t comment on how all these binos work with glass wearers. And when I mentioned the differences between the binos, they aren’t necessarily GLARING differences, but can be rather subtle while still noticeable. All of these are 10x binos. Most of these binos have 8x brother models, but I have not tested ANY of them, so if you’re wanting some 8x compact binos this write up is not for you. The differences in comparing all the 8x compacts is another round of comparing and may come out with entirely different comparison results.
First off, the Cabela AG 10x28’s are fairly impressive for the money. They are very compact (4.6”), very light (8.6oz), and gather a lot of light for their size. For me the downside was that I didn’t care for their eyecup design. It felt like a cheaper build, and while Cabela’s is nothing short of exemplary when it comes to customer service, I still felt uneasy about getting repairs or service 10 years down the road compared to known brand names. The AG’s have a dual hinge design, some people like the dual hinge, some don’t. Clarity was very good, but after comparing the Pentax 10x28’s with the AG’s, I thought the Pentax came out a bit ahead. To me the Pentax had a better feel in the hands, better build quality, and slightly better clarity of image. But the downside of the Pentax model is that it is larger (wider) and much heavier (16.2oz). The focus knob of the Pentax is positioned better and is easier to use on the fly, and they have a single center hinge design. And there’s some of the tradeoffs- do you want lighter/smaller for a little less clarity and ease of use, or do you want a little bigger/heavier and easier to use and a tad better sight picture?
I pulled out my old trusty Nikon Sporstar II’s to see how they would hold up against the new guys in town. Well they certainly don’t have the light gathering ability that the AG’s or the Pentax does, and that wasn’t too difficult to see once the light started fading. Not a terrible difference, but still noticeable in waning light. But where I WAS surprised is that the clarity of the Sportstar II’s in good light was as good, if not better. I almost couldn’t believe that I could read newspaper print better with my old bino’s than I could with either the AG’s or Pentax. Now I know why I liked them so much years ago.
The Zeiss Classic’s are the dual hinge design and have the clarity and light gathering that Zeiss is known for, but I didn’t care for the limited eye relief of those binos, the small eyecups, or the built-in neck cord. But they are very small and compact (4.7”, 7.1oz)- the fold up into a “Z” shape for storage. But, the Nikon Venturer’s were better in every category. Better design, better clarity, better light gathering, yet small and compact (4.3” 10.9oz), These are very impressive compacts, but they should be for $349. The edge-to-edge clarity was better than any of the others. And that’s part of the problem of bino shopping- once you start comparing higher end models and see the differences, it’s tough to go back to lower end products. Nikon doesn’t get the recognition of their top of the line Venturer series as does the Swarovski, Leica, and Zeiss names. I suppose it’s because Nikon also makes very affordable models and everything in between. But from every serious bird watcher and binocular “know-it-all” that I’ve talked to says the same thing: that the Venturer line is EVERY bit as good (and maybe better) than the big name European models. But they are just as pricey. These are awesome compacts and I thought I found my new favorites.
On a whim I decided to test one last 10x25 pair, but of a different flavor. And that was the Nikon Mountaineer II ATB’s ($219) and I had read many good things about. They are a porro-prism design but not too terribly heavy or bulky (4.3” 15.9oz), but they are about as wide as the Pentax, and a lot wider than the Venturer’s. They are rubber coated, water proof, and have an all-metal chassis. Being a porro prism design, they may not be quite as bullet-proof as the roof prims, but these Mountaineer’s seem to be built very well. And with Nikon’s “No Fault” warranty I wouldn’t be worried. I’ve used Nikon warranty service a few years ago when I dropped my binos from a treestand. They landed directly on the only stump within 20yds in any direction.
It wasn’t pretty. But Nikon kept up their part of the warranty- send in $10 with the binos and they will repair or replace, even if it’s due to my stupidity. I got them back as good as new a few weeks later. The Mountaineer’s are some beautiful binos. Clear, sharp, bright- everything I could ask for. The porro design must allow for better light transmission because they gathered slightly more light than the Venturers which cost quite a bit more. I was very surprised. Viewing at night and with street lighting I could see a little further into the shadows and pick out more clarity with the Mountaineers than ANY other 10x25 I’ve tried so far. Keep in mind that it wasn’t a huge difference between them and the Venturers, but when you look at the price tags it becomes a significant parameter. They have a single center hinge and a nicely placed focus knob along with click-stop diopter wheel.
The downside to the Mountaineer’s is that they don’t have the field of view that some of the others do, in fact it may be one of the most narrow fields of view of any 10x25. For trying to follow fast action or pick out a moving target at a distance that might be a factor to consider. They are a bit more bulky and heavy than most of the other compacts, but once again it comes down to the tradeoffs you’re willing to make. All this got me to thinking about other 10x25 porro designs, all others seem to be in the $100-125 range. Several bino shops told me the same thing- that the Mountaineer’s are well beyond ANY other 10x25 porro, they sort of are in a class by themselves. And for me, the Mountaineer’s are my new favorites. Ok, so they don’t have the “true” compactness that will fit into a shirt pocket, but they will easily fit into a backpack or can be worn on a belt. And they obviously aren't in the roof prism compact category that I started my search with. To me, the little bit of a larger/heavier size is worth it as they outperformed the best of the roof prism compacts. Keep in mind that we are just talking about 10x25 sizes. All bets are off once you get into larger sizes like 10x30’s or 10x40’s. That’s a whole different ballgame.
p.s. …..And being curious if I should upgrade my alternate pair of throw-around backpack Sportstar II’s to the Sportstar III’s, I compared my old binos to the newer model. I thought that maybe Nikon would’ve improved the optics or the light gathering ability with the new version. I was a little disappointed. While the III’s have a wider field of view, the light gathering was not as good as my II’s and I felt that the color of image was a bit brownish. The III’s feel cheaper in design as well. I’ll stick with my Sportstar II’s. Between my Sportstar II's and the Mountaineer ATB’s, I got all my bases covered for now in the 10x25 range.
Now onto the 10x42 size...
03-02-2004, 11:59 AM
#2
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Lehigh County PA USA
Posts: 12,157
RE: Compact binoc ramblings....
Todd,
Excellent review! I, too, am somewhat fascinated with binoculars and have had quite a few compact models over the years. None of which I have been particularly happy with until I picked up a pair of, guess what, Nikon Sportstar IIs this past year. They are the 8x model but I am still very impressed with their image clarity, color and overall brightness levels. I have been using them on the 3D course specifically.
I have read alot about the Venturer models since visiting www.betterviewdesired.com. I think one of the reasons they aren't as popular as the Swaros, Leicas, Zeiss, etc... is because I have yet to see that particular product line in any of the outdoor catalogs. Pick up a Cabelas and the top end Nikon model is the Monarch ATB (which I also bought for hunting this year). Nothing about the Venturers whatsoever.
I would have also liked for you to have tried the Brunton compacts. I have a pair of 10x25 Lite tech binos that are very impressive though bulkier than most compact models. Maybe I could send them out for you to examine a bit. They do show a little wear and tear along the edges but are still in very good shape. I also see that Brunton also has a new top end binocular on the market. I believe they are the Epoch series. I think the large objective roof prism models are in the same price range as the Swaros if not a bit more but I am not sure if they offer compact models as well.
Once again, excellent review.
Excellent review! I, too, am somewhat fascinated with binoculars and have had quite a few compact models over the years. None of which I have been particularly happy with until I picked up a pair of, guess what, Nikon Sportstar IIs this past year. They are the 8x model but I am still very impressed with their image clarity, color and overall brightness levels. I have been using them on the 3D course specifically.
I have read alot about the Venturer models since visiting www.betterviewdesired.com. I think one of the reasons they aren't as popular as the Swaros, Leicas, Zeiss, etc... is because I have yet to see that particular product line in any of the outdoor catalogs. Pick up a Cabelas and the top end Nikon model is the Monarch ATB (which I also bought for hunting this year). Nothing about the Venturers whatsoever.
I would have also liked for you to have tried the Brunton compacts. I have a pair of 10x25 Lite tech binos that are very impressive though bulkier than most compact models. Maybe I could send them out for you to examine a bit. They do show a little wear and tear along the edges but are still in very good shape. I also see that Brunton also has a new top end binocular on the market. I believe they are the Epoch series. I think the large objective roof prism models are in the same price range as the Swaros if not a bit more but I am not sure if they offer compact models as well.
Once again, excellent review.
03-02-2004, 12:13 PM
#3
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: WEST PALM FLORIDA
Posts: 2,890
RE: Compact binoc ramblings....
Black Frog , Bino's seam to be very subjective , but I did a trial similar to yours years ago and wound up with , wind river olimpics , Not the plain wind rivers , which were definatly blury , The wind river olimpics , made by lepole , are very nice , the only other binos I thought were clearer were swarofskis and at a cost of $1500 as opposed to $250 it was very littel diferance .
03-02-2004, 12:23 PM
#4
Fork Horn
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Kenosha, Wi USA
Posts: 499
RE: Compact binoc ramblings....
Yup. The only way to compare binos is to do side-by-side comparisons with lots of variety and different conditions to see how they perform.
Frank, I would've liked to try the Brunton compacts, but didn't have a place nearby that carried them. I guess we both thought the Sportstar II's were a good deal. Much better than the Sportstar III's- don't waste your time. I'd like to see how the II's compare with the Tech-lites? I can send you my II's for a 10x25 comparison.....
Now that I possess my new favorites, I can take them with me wherever and use them as my new 10x25 benchmark against other 10x25's.
Kills me when people say, "oh yeah, look through these..." and they hand me some 8x40's or something. Apples and oranges there.
Frank, I would've liked to try the Brunton compacts, but didn't have a place nearby that carried them. I guess we both thought the Sportstar II's were a good deal.
Much better than the Sportstar III's- don't waste your time. I'd like to see how the II's compare with the Tech-lites? I can send you my II's for a 10x25 comparison.....Now that I possess my new favorites, I can take them with me wherever and use them as my new 10x25 benchmark against other 10x25's.
Kills me when people say, "oh yeah, look through these..." and they hand me some 8x40's or something. Apples and oranges there.
03-02-2004, 12:38 PM
#6
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Lehigh County PA USA
Posts: 12,157
RE: Compact binoc ramblings....
You are going to do a 10x42 review too? I cannot wait. But I have a feeling you are going to need a bigger budget.....
I will PM you about the Sportstar IIs. For the record, my only beef with the Tech lites is that you cannot get the eyepieces extremely close together. The way that they are designed does not allow them to fold past a certain point. That may be a problem for folks whose are eyes are located close to each other.
.I will PM you about the Sportstar IIs. For the record, my only beef with the Tech lites is that you cannot get the eyepieces extremely close together. The way that they are designed does not allow them to fold past a certain point. That may be a problem for folks whose are eyes are located close to each other.
03-02-2004, 12:46 PM
#7
Fork Horn
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Kenosha, Wi USA
Posts: 499
RE: Compact binoc ramblings....
I won't be buying 10x42's for quite a while, I've been spending too much cash lately and I'm trying to remodel a bathroom.....
To compare all the 10x42's I'm interested in is going to be pricey!! I'm afraid that I'll really like the pricey stuff. [
]
that scares me.
To compare all the 10x42's I'm interested in is going to be pricey!! I'm afraid that I'll really like the pricey stuff. [
] that scares me.
03-02-2004, 12:52 PM
#8
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Lehigh County PA USA
Posts: 12,157
RE: Compact binoc ramblings....
I can see the credit card bill now....
...Swarovski EL 10x42s ...... Brunton Epoch 10x42s...... Nikon Venturer LX 10x42s...
With the money you would spend on those three alone you could buy my Kia off of me.....
...Swarovski EL 10x42s ...... Brunton Epoch 10x42s...... Nikon Venturer LX 10x42s...
With the money you would spend on those three alone you could buy my Kia off of me.....
03-02-2004, 01:32 PM
#9
Fork Horn
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Kenosha, Wi USA
Posts: 499
RE: Compact binoc ramblings....
Once you get into 10x42 size, you could realistically do some multiple levels of comparisons. There's enough offerings out there to do a $200-400 range, $400-700 range, and then the "open" class (get the fire hose to cool down your wallet) range.
The nice thing about the compacts is that even the best of the bunch is not going to absolutely kill you on price. And some may wonder how I could like a pair of $219 10x25 binos better than the top-of-the-line 10x25 Venturer's? Like I've mentioned there's always tradeoffs. I think the Venturer's are the best COMPACT bino, but you pay a premium price to get that beautiful clarity and light gathering ability into a package that small. The porro design of the Mountaineers allows for slightly better light transmission by using bigger reflecting surface areas of the glass inside while still keeping the outstanding clarity. The trade off is that it takes a bigger package (a little heavier and bulkier) to do it with that method vs the roof prims Venturer's. So a little bigger/heavier but with equal clarity and a little more light gathering ability, and for less cash. I'm willing to make that trade for MY binocular needs and useage. Your mileage may vary.
The nice thing about the compacts is that even the best of the bunch is not going to absolutely kill you on price. And some may wonder how I could like a pair of $219 10x25 binos better than the top-of-the-line 10x25 Venturer's? Like I've mentioned there's always tradeoffs. I think the Venturer's are the best COMPACT bino, but you pay a premium price to get that beautiful clarity and light gathering ability into a package that small. The porro design of the Mountaineers allows for slightly better light transmission by using bigger reflecting surface areas of the glass inside while still keeping the outstanding clarity. The trade off is that it takes a bigger package (a little heavier and bulkier) to do it with that method vs the roof prims Venturer's. So a little bigger/heavier but with equal clarity and a little more light gathering ability, and for less cash. I'm willing to make that trade for MY binocular needs and useage. Your mileage may vary.