RE: What does a hybrid really do that a high end single cam doesn't ?
 

Its talent and dedication , or conpulsion that wins tourny's , ask tiger , given equal equipment, or even lessor quality equipment , and when hes on the top of his game hes going to SPANK eveyone . Thats why I think better technology , more forgiveing setups are going to help the "average" archer , of which I consider myself to a geater degree .

RE: What does a hybrid really do that a high end single cam doesn't ?
 

Bingo. Great post Todd, you too ijimmy.

It's going to be very hard for me to sit back on this one, but as ijimmy has correctly stated, I cannot divulge or get in any deeper without backstabbing others in the industry and seeing as I now work in a high position for a manufacturer honestly that's not what I'm here for---I think it's much wiser to help everyone in the industry whenever possible, that way we all benefit. ;)Good shooting, Pinwheel 12

RE: What does a hybrid really do that a high end single cam doesn't ?
 

Great post Pinwheel 12!!!;)

RE: What does a hybrid really do that a high end single cam doesn't ?
 

I think you have to add, "if shot at the same distance" If someone were shooting the Hooter Shooter at varying distances, you would see just how far this machine canl miss the previous hole. If the Hooter Shooter demonstrates one thing, it's that out-of-tune bows can shoot tuned arrows into the same hole, when the distance on each shot is identical. This is a far cry from what is required of an archer who is shooting at varying distances.

As for pro's shooting like a Hooter Shooter, well not all pros shoot to the same level. A lower level pro should benefit from the better system if there was one. Why can't this be demonstrated? If a pro that is not so machine-like, is shooting a slightly larger group, the group should be smaller with the better system. This doesn't seem to be happening. I don't believe anyone has ever demonstrated that a particular cam system is more accurate than another, when both are timed and tuned properly. Everything I've ever read has not been based on shooter results, but on theory. Theory that is not only unproven, but possibly wrong.

RE: What does a hybrid really do that a high end single cam doesn't ?
 

Kind of makes the lay person (me) wonder what the point of the hooter shooter is. However, it still seems to me like this would be the ultimate proving ground for the equipment to shine, since you have eliminated all other variables, the only variable left to out perform, is the equipment. Eventhough the difference may be negligible at 20 yards surely there would be some difference at say 90 yards if one system were truely superior. JMO

That gets me back to my point. Is that really a consideration? Since, millions of average joe archers are shooting some of the less forgiving types of setups (including myself) equally well or better than they have ever shot anything else (better in my case) and they are shooting baseball size groups at 40 yards (for example) then what do they really stand to gain. Basically, if it doesn't matter what the pros shoot and the average Joe isn't shooting for Vegas type accuracy and probably isn't capable of it (I know I am not). it just seems to me like you would be hearing stories of great shooting ephanies where once guys got a hold of the hybrid cams system they saw the light and immediately began shooting the best groups of their lives etc., unless you subscribe to the "most shooters aren't good enough to tell the difference philosphy", in which case we have determined that it won't make a difference to the pro and it won't make a difference to the average shooter so again it kind of makes you wonder what the point is and if there is really that much difference. Again, this is just the perspective of this individual mediocre archer.

If they are doing that with "inferior" equipment it again raises the question "just how inferior is it"? I have to admit that it all leads me back to the same conclusion, to steal a line from jeffB, "it's the doofus behind the string that matters". Could we be trying to make mountains out of mole hills? Could we be overanalyzing? don't get me wrong i see a place for these conversations and I have learned a great deal from them, I just keep getting led back to these conclusions.

RE: What does a hybrid really do that a high end single cam doesn't ?
 

The HS can shoot ANY arrow into the same hole, does not matter if it's tuned for the bow or if it is really bent and way out of the spine range.

How? You realize how much time that the pros put into tuning their particular setup? It becomes an extension of their body, and they have become intimately familiar with how it feels and how it's balanced. How would you look at a line of shooters and know that Shooter A's ability is not quite up to Shooter B's ability, but Shooter A has a slightly better cam system so his scores are fairly close to Shooter B?

And you never will. If a machine can be the ultimate in accuracy with ANY bow, how do you propose that it be demostrated which cam system is more accurate in the hands of an archer? An archer of what skill level? At what range? With what arrows? And who decides which arrows are best to use with that bow? Who decides what drawlength or form the archer should have? Maybe the back wall of one cam system lends itself to better shooting to an archer that prefers that vs. a soft wall?

There are just too many variables to PROVE that a one cam system is inherently more accurate and/or better than another. All you can do is find what works best for YOU, your style, you likes, your form, and your wallet. :)

RE: What does a hybrid really do that a high end single cam doesn't ?
 

There's always that factor involved with archery. That's what makes it fun!:D

RE: What does a hybrid really do that a high end single cam doesn't ?
 

The HS is the ULTIMATE tool for sorting through arrows! You go through a dozen of your arrows and see which do not impact with the others- it might surprise you..... It's great for checking draw length, drop-away rest timing, cam timing (once you know what you're doing).

The HS does eliminate on very important variable- the "human" factor. And I think THAT is where the differences in cam systems can show up, and why they may be so elusive to "prove".

I know that the HS can shoot a bent arrow out of an out-of-time bow into the same hole every time. Now, if I try and take that same combo and shoot it, I'll be all over the place and my groups will not be anywhere near the size of my groups being shot out of my well-tuned and primed target rig. Why? The HS can shoot my target rig into the same hole, and I can come close to shooting my target rig into the same hole, but I'd be all over the place with the out-of-time bow shooting a bent arrow.

The human factor starts to get into the grey area of "forgiveness" of a certain bow and arrow combo and/or cam system. How much can the archer's form screw up, yet still shoot an arrow rather accurately? How far from being machine-like can the archer get, yet still group well? What may lend itself to better performance for one archer may not lend itself to another archer because of personal likes, form, style, etc...

RE: What does a hybrid really do that a high end single cam doesn't ?
 

That was my understanding of what the primary purpose of the hooter shooter was, however I took your above qoute to mean that it would infact shoot any arrow into the same hole.

RE: What does a hybrid really do that a high end single cam doesn't ?
 

If all arrows were the EXACT same, they would (should) all hit the same hole.

But we all know that arrows have manufacturing tolerances for spine and straightness. These tolerances start to show up from arrow-to-arrow using the HS. You can go through a dozen arrows and see the difference in impact points (if any) on the target. It's easy to weed out problematic arrows, and makes for much more consistent broadhead flight as well.

BUT, the HS will shoot any GIVEN arrow into the same hole time after time, no matter how out of tune the bow, or even if the arrow is bent.

RE: What does a hybrid really do that a high end single cam doesn't ?
 

That's the part that always get's me :)

I think based on technical concepts, one of the cam systems can be technically proven to be superior to the others, but I get the feeling in the grand scheme of things, the superiority is minute at best, with the winning system nudging out the others by a slim margin in real world application.

That being said, it seems to make sense that the straightest and most level you can launch a fixed head out of a bow, the more forgiving it will be. Some single cams can do this, as can some hybrids and duallys. But not all of each design can, apparently, so it's hard to generalize and say X is better than Y & Z.

I know people on this board whom I totally trust who've reported much easier tuning with fixed blade heads when going from a SC to a Hybrid, and these fellas can shoot lights out. If they noticed a difference, they're must be something to it, no?

While I respect and understand his decision, I wish Pinwheel could elaborate. I also notice that Len has chosen to stay out of the fray... :)

RE: What does a hybrid really do that a high end single cam doesn't ?
 

I was speaking of groups of arrows, not just one single arrow. Tournaments are shot with multiple arrows. I think most pros would proclaim "matched", tuned arrows to be far more important then the cam configuration.


Each individual archer would know if his groups were noticably better with a particular cam type. A company couldn't pay him enough to go out and lose with an inferior set-up (for very long). I contend they shoot equally well with each type and are very comfortable going with who pays the most. If this is not true, then obviously Mathews has the best cam.

RE: What does a hybrid really do that a high end single cam doesn't ?
 

Tuned arrows- you bet! :) That's why the HS can be so valuable just FOR the reason that it CAN shoot an arrow in the same hole over and over. You then have a baseline for consistency across a group of arrows.

The individual archer has many variables when switching from one bow to another. Using the same arrows? Is the new bow faster, more power? Is that potentially different power equating well to the spine of the arrow? Same arrow rest? Ok, so lets say the archer likes some new cam for HIS shooting style.

What about another archer that has tried many cam configurations and thinks a different cam style works best for THEIR shooting style? Both will claim that their perfromance improved when switching to their respective new cam styles. Who is right? Potentially both are. They may both be right for their individual styles.

An average bowhunter that has used the same bow for the last 10 years and finally decides to buy ANY new bow on the market will most likely be much happier with the new bow vs. what he had. The average archer doesn't get to try enough different cam styles side by side to deteremine what ultimately works best. And even if they do, it is only what works best for their personal style. They may get to try a few shots of different cams in the store- but no real in-depth tuning to the "nth" degree to eek out every last potential point.

What I like may not be what you like.[&:] That's why manufactures offer 31" bows up to 45" bows. Rather harsh draw cycles for ultimate speed, or round wheels for smooth target shooting. Heavy, light, and everything in between.

RE: What does a hybrid really do that a high end single cam doesn't ?
 

[quote]ORIGINAL: CBM SC

Matt check your math that comes out to 1 fps for every 3.45 grains
BD

RE: What does a hybrid really do that a high end single cam doesn't ?
 

ANY bow can be made to shoot arrows over and over into the same hole. I attended a seminar some years ago and watched how a bow with a cam on one end, wheel on the other, and two different limbs of different poundages and lengths, (one recurve and one straight too![:o] ) was tuned to shoot a perfect bullethole and put arrow after arrow into the same hole out of a machine!! Yes, the arrows were matched![8D] ) But to actually feel and shoot the bow----well, that is a whole 'nuther ball game--awful! The same thing applies here---it's all in the geometry and forgiveness for the application, and which bow and cam design will fit a wider variety of people more comfortably and perform at it's best at the same time for everyone.;)


VERY true but only to an extent---yet again depending upon ability also. I have also seen when one bow will actually group excellent when everything is absolutely perfect and the archer is standing on perfectly level ground---but throw a little terrain or put him slightly out of "perfection" and that same bow will perform much differently and is almost impossible at times---downhill shots quickly come to mind.... I know one particular bow brand that shoots great when everything is absolutely"perfect", but one has to work very, very hard to get it there and can actually shoot another brand of bow much better no matter what position or even if that person is seemingly standing on their head---this makes the archer much more comfortable and confident in their equipment, even tho another design may in fact also throw great groups when everything is perfect. When you add this increased archer confidence and equipment forgiveness into the mix, the archer will thus beat out the others every time, even if their abilities are slightly less than others. All about the equipment itself in this scenario. Pros of course will have a much lesser window to work with because of their increased abilities, and I can tell you from experience that they go where the money is--- because being on a Factory Pro Staff that is their job, and one will of course work for those who will pay the most money for as long as they can, they'd be stupid not to if they are trying to make their living shooting a bow.;)

Hope this helps a bit. It's killing me but that's about as far as I can go here, in fact I'm going to say I'm definately done here----tho again I emphasize that I will still stand behind my original statements and opinions in previous posts.;) Good shooting, Pinwheel 12

RE: What does a hybrid really do that a high end single cam doesn't ?
 

Hey BD ......that's not my quote !

Interesting info. everyone !!

RE: What does a hybrid really do that a high end single cam doesn't ?
 

This is an interesting discussion and I'm sure there are many factors that make a bow more "shootable" over another, or that makes for tighter groups. I think the jist of what I'm trying to say is, out of all the variables and factors that account for one bow performing better then another, cam style is rather low on the list. For instance, if I was to categorize items in importance, it might go something like this.

1) Archer's ability to repeat their form and technique
2) Degree to which arrows match.
3) Ability of an archer to tune their bow to perfection.
4) Shooting the perfect draw length
5) Archers comfort shooting a particular release
6) ATA of bow along with brace height (forgivenesss factor)
7) Grip design and comfort matching individual's preference.
8) Draw cycle (most importantly the characteristics of the valley and wall)
9) Bow's balance
10) Bow component quality (high quality for consistancy in the equipment)
....
....
....
123) Bow color
124) Type of cam

Well, maybe you could switch 123 and 124 around, but you get my point. ;)]

RE: What does a hybrid really do that a high end single cam doesn't ?
 

SA,

I think you could have stopped after #2. All else is of very little importance. Afterall, if you can consistently repeat your form you are basically a machine and a machine can shoot them in the same hole regardless of tune. Like rangeball said, Ragsdale won Vegas with a bow that was so out of tune that most would swear you couldn't win your back yard tournament against the neighbors kid, shooting it;)

PS I knew that you would find that troubling;)

RE: What does a hybrid really do that a high end single cam doesn't ?
 

The 3 track cam is the best going and superior to the one cam or cam and one half.
Yes, Pinwheel, "no explanation is necessary". :D


Sag.

RE: What does a hybrid really do that a high end single cam doesn't ?
 

I got to shoot a Darton with the CPS a few day's ago at my local pro
shop. I put an old used TM hunter style rest on the bow and adjusted
center shot and nocking point to where both were close. Using my
55/75 Goldtips with 125 gr. points I went outside to shoot. The first thing
I noticed was my arrows were flying beautiful on every shot. This was
a 60 lb. max bow so I asked if he had a 70 lb. max in the same bow.
I set it up in the same manner and got the same result. I have been
reading about the Hybrid's here and had to see it for myself. Well now I
know. Compaired to my Max cam bow I have this CPS Hybrid is much
easier to tune and was fun to shoot.:D

RE: What does a hybrid really do that a high end single cam doesn't ?
 

I own a Mathews Q2 and a Hoyt Razortec. One is a solocam and the other is of course the cam and a 1/2 system. Both are fine bows. I can stack arrows with my q2 out to 45 yards. I can stack arrows with my Razortec out to 45 yards. I have always been able to easily tune the Q2 (which I have had for 3 years) and always get good broadhead flight and accuracy. I have only had the Razortec for one year but it was also easy to tune for good broadhead flight. Was it easier to tune? Naaa, no more or less trouble than the Q2. In fact the only real difference to me is that due to the different cam configurations they do have a very different feeling draw cycle. But nether is unpleasent to draw so even that would be a matter of opinion as to which feels better.

If an average smoe like myself can't see a meaningful difference and we have already established that the pro's can shoot anything well then I fail to see the big frickin deal. Design features can seem vastly superior on paper but if they don't deliver noticable improvement in performance, reliability or durability then I'm sorry but they are no big deal.

RE: What does a hybrid really do that a high end single cam doesn't ?
 

Sorry CBM SC it was Matt/PA's math, I just have no idea how to do the quote thing.
BD:eek:

RE: What does a hybrid really do that a high end single cam doesn't ?
 

Hey.....quit makin fun of my math skills already!![&o]:D
At least I got the addition and subtraction part right! That long division will get me everytime.;)

The calculator will be standard issue from here out.:eek:

RE: What does a hybrid really do that a high end single cam doesn't ?
 

Moves inferior product lines.

means you don't have to pay single cam rights fees?