JeffB

I think this pretty much sums up my feelings as well about the bows themselves.

I would also add that BowTech unlike the vast majority of archery companies is VERY accessible to it's consumers; both dealer and end-user. Their Head Engineer reads these boards frequently and has even posted a bit. So do other execs in the company. Kevin ASKS what all of us would like to see. Everyone I've met from the company is very down to earth and friendly...no attitudes. It's not just the bows but the whole package.

Great bows backed by great folks, and they are striving to improve all the time. No resting on laurels.

muzzyman88

Honestly, I shot them both and to me, it seems as though Mathews started the VFT craze, Bowtech took the idea and made it better, thus burying Mathews.

nubo

I shot a legacy ,Vft Extreme and they're both very respectable bow's But my preference is Bow Tech to start they are about $100 cheaper than Mathew's
At least here in Ont they are.

nubo

Ossage

I'm basicaly looking for points. In other words, I don't see the point in changing a brand, unless I will score better with it, more points , or bag more game. Lots of stuff about features doesn't mean anything to me. I could care less about variety. Mathews bows have stayed more the same over the years, than different, some people see that as a personal insult to their restless natures. I see it as a big advantage, the line shoots basicaly the same year after year.It does improve, but it stays within it's fundamentals

Strings are just a joke to me. It's like tying flies, there isn't anything anyone can do that someone can't copy at home. We are supposed to again believe that some small company has taken Mathews technology one step further than mathews can copy, in the absence of any patent advantage, proprietary materials, or even published technology. It's ridiculous. I had this guy offer to fix my drive years ago. I wasn't going to do it, and he pitched all this technology about putting the crack filler in at hundreds of pounds per square inch. Turned out to be a stick with a nail on the end of it. So here we have some tech for stretching strings with minimal elongation in the first place. Must be real high tech, right?

I shot a slew of Mathews for 3D over the years, currently shooting a conquest II, most accurate bow I have ever had, in terms of how I shoot it. I haven't tried a Bowtech bow, though I pull them back in the shop from time to time. I have shot tons of 2 cams also, and currently own several Hoyts. I don't see any points advantage to them, but if the single cam didn't exist, it wouldn't bother me.

I'm not interested in "playing" with a modular cam. The 30" mathews cam shoots perfect for me. Why would something to play with, get out of tune, or have screws fall out of be an advantage to me? I thought the "playing" was the shooting and hunting.

I'll admit that no dualy isn't going to make some people happy, though it is nice to know you are dealing with a company that has no choice but to make the best single they can, they can't keep playing with cam options to boost sales, and they aparently believe in their particular technology.

Again a lot of variety in cam types is in some ways a nightmare for a pro shop, but also an advanatage, you can always pitch a different format before loosing a sale. But as a buyer, Mathews already makes a cam I like. going into a situation where the salesman hasn't even shot all the permutations he offers, and couldn't possibly have made up his mind in an informed way, doesn't really do much for me. I"d rather they did the R&D in the factory, than in the pro shop.

The three things that I like the best about Mathews is the continuity, i can go in and buy a new bow, and I won't have to fiddle with it to get it shooting up to snuff. I can buy the best accessories made, and they are designed around the Mathews platform, and can be moved between any one of their models. I can get a good resale on my product even when the bow is years out of date. I'm currently selling an early Feathermax, and will probably get nearly what a paid for it, though that is in part because of how much more expensive the new bows are. Check ebay and make up your own mind.

A lot of these other issues don't put any dollars in my pocket, or points on my card.

I've read a lot of Bowtwch threads over the years here, from all the patriot threads, imediately replace with dualy threads when the dust had settled on the orginal. Most of them are so over the top that you would think that some real breakthrough was afoot. But be realistic, that just doesn't happen with every new bow. Wow they put a dual cam on a bow that was originaly designed for a single, next they will invent the mini skirt. It's hype. I don't have any reason to believe Bowtech is anything but excellent. There are lots of good bows, however.

It's like the 1911. Every year someone comes out with a "better" product, but the installed base just doesn't favour adoption. There is a ton of sophistication in those who massage the 1911. You can get lots more well though out aftermarket items or customisations.

It's sorta too bad Bowtech has taken the sizzle from Mathews, but I'm still after the steak.

Ossage

I'm basicaly looking for points. In other words, I don't see the point in changing a brand, unless I will score better with it, more points , or bag more game. Lots of stuff about features doesn't mean anything to me. I could care less about variety. Mathews bows have stayed more the same over the years, than different, some people see that as a personal insult to their restless natures. I see it as a big advantage, the line shoots basicaly the same year after year.It does improve, but it stays within it's fundamentals

Strings are just a joke to me. It's like tying flies, there isn't anything anyone can do that someone can't copy at home. We are supposed to again believe that some small company has taken Mathews technology one step further than mathews can copy, in the absence of any patent advantage, proprietary materials, or even published technology. It's ridiculous. I had this guy offer to fix my drive years ago. I wasn't going to do it, and he pitched all this technology about putting the crack filler in at hundreds of pounds per square inch. Turned out to be a stick with a nail on the end of it. So here we have some tech for stretching strings with minimal elongation in the first place. Must be real high tech, right?

I shot a slew of Mathews for 3D over the years, currently shooting a conquest II, most accurate bow I have ever had, in terms of how I shoot it. I haven't tried a Bowtech bow, though I pull them back in the shop from time to time. I have shot tons of 2 cams also, and currently own several Hoyts. I don't see any points advantage to them, but if the single cam didn't exist, it wouldn't bother me.

I'm not interested in "playing" with a modular cam. The 30" mathews cam shoots perfect for me. Why would something to play with, get out of tune, or have screws fall out of be an advantage to me? I thought the "playing" was the shooting and hunting.

I'll admit that no dualy isn't going to make some people happy, though it is nice to know you are dealing with a company that has no choice but to make the best single they can, they can't keep playing with cam options to boost sales, and they aparently believe in their particular technology.

Again a lot of variety in cam types is in some ways a nightmare for a pro shop, but also an advanatage, you can always pitch a different format before loosing a sale. But as a buyer, Mathews already makes a cam I like. going into a situation where the salesman hasn't even shot all the permutations he offers, and couldn't possibly have made up his mind in an informed way, doesn't really do much for me. I"d rather they did the R&D in the factory, than in the pro shop.

The three things that I like the best about Mathews is the continuity, i can go in and buy a new bow, and I won't have to fiddle with it to get it shooting up to snuff. I can buy the best accessories made, and they are designed around the Mathews platform, and can be moved between any one of their models. I can get a good resale on my product even when the bow is years out of date. I'm currently selling an early Feathermax, and will probably get nearly what a paid for it, though that is in part because of how much more expensive the new bows are. Check ebay and make up your own mind.

A lot of these other issues don't put any dollars in my pocket, or points on my card.

I've read a lot of Bowtwch threads over the years here, from all the patriot threads, imediately replace with dualy threads when the dust had settled on the orginal. Most of them are so over the top that you would think that some real breakthrough was afoot. But be realistic, that just doesn't happen with every new bow. Wow they put a dual cam on a bow that was originaly designed for a single, next they will invent the mini skirt. It's hype. I don't have any reason to believe Bowtech is anything but excellent. There are lots of good bows, however.

It's like the 1911. Every year someone comes out with a "better" product, but the installed base just doesn't favour adoption. There is a ton of sophistication in those who massage the 1911. You can get lots more well though out aftermarket items or customisations.

It's sorta too bad Bowtech has taken the sizzle from Mathews, but I'm still after the steak.

Greg / MO

A very well-thought-out and written post, Ossage. I know a few persons will disagree on some of your observations, but kudos to the fact you were (are) willing to pen them in such a down-to-earth, cut-through-the-crap manner.

walks with a gimp

Different brands of bows will always offer different options for everyone. BowTech is willing to let the public in on what they are changing from year to year and it makes us all feel like we're part of their success. BowTech offers more bows all with a different "feel" than anyone else and "feel" is what will end up selling bows in the long run and providing customer satisfaction Good luck with your's !!!!

Orions_Bow

I can see where you are coming from on this. The basic design Mathews introduced with the MQ1 is showing up in a lot of bows on the market. I can see where someone would say they sort of look a like.

Now to answer your question I think honestly they are very different bows. I'll take 2 models as comparisons.

Mathews Q2 - Harmoni Dampers, tight limb pockets, slitghtly parallel limb design, single cam with large idler, wood grip, straight slightly reflexed riser, short ATA with 34", IBO 308.

Bowtech Liberty - no dampening in the riser, tight limb pockets pivoting design, more radical parallel limbs, single cam - modular & adjustable for letoff, Single Cam & large Idler, wood laminated grip, almost straight reflexed design, IBO 308.

What you are seeing is that Bowtech is using the parallel limb design to a much more radical level to acheive low shock at the shot while Mathews is using a more gentle parallel design with harmonic dampers to remove the rest of the shock. Both bows are great design yet they are different. The mathews cams are unique but don't allow for much adjustablility while the bowtechs does. You will also find that the bows are different weights with the mathews being a little heavier. Both companies are moving in a direction, Bowtech listens to a lot of ideas by their customers while mathews is moving in a direction they feel will yeild the best shooting bows. Hoyt & Mathews are dicatating the technology while bowtech seems to lsiten a bit more to the consumer.

I like both bows & I own both Mathews & Bowtech. I like them for very different reasons. It all boils down to what you like out of a bow and which one feels better to you. if you look at other bow companies you will see similar design traits as the Mathews & Bowtechs as well. It's just the way consumers seem to like the bows & most comapnies are giving them what they like.

I will say ossage has a great point - I like the simplicity of my mathews cams. I know on my Q2XL nothing will come loose or move while I have had screws work loose out of my Bowtech's moduals. I like the Mathews cam design & I like their bows. I feel they make a high quality product. Nothing against Bowtech but I feel a Mathews is hard to beat for quality. Like I said I like them both for different reasons but in general I like the shooting charectoristics of my Mathews better. Jsut a different feel & honestly that is what sets them apart! Thats why I am so excited about the 2004 Bowtech's they fixed a few things I really wanted to see them do & now I think those Liberties & Justice's are looking really good! That new cam & idler looks like the bomb and those 2 bows are more like the type of bow I like over my Extreme VFT (speed demon for sure but still shootable!).

Thats the best part about archery, you get a wide variety!

Ossage

Sorry about the double post.

And again, I'm not saying anything against Bowtech, just taking some of the "benefit" issues, and saying they don't benefit me.

Users come in a variety of types, newbies, upgraders, quick flippers, and people like me who have been in it for a long time. We are all looking for something a little different. Bowtech, as a new company. is looking to build market share. So you get an intersection of bow company and user needs. The result isn't going to be for everyone.

Ossage

Here is another thought, let's say you want to improve the gear you have. So maybe you want to change teh grip, or rest, or just fiddle with the cables. There is an old saying science cycle, "Change only one variable at a time". Amateurs want to through everything up in the air, and hope they get lucky. But the fact is you can't change everything at once, and refine your seltup. Now obviously people with a lot of skill, budget expertise can switch bow styles, it is possible. But why shortof changing sponsors would you want to (I'm a total amateur, no sponsors or archery business). So go back X years. I bought an Ultamlight, and a hoyt Enticer in the same year. The latter for targets. I really liked the Enticer, but I changed next year to an Alphatec, then moved everything into mathews. I have a similar thing happening with my Hoyt Oasis (for sale). The point here is, where is the enticer, or Oasis in the current Hoyt line? They are so many riser and cam combos down the line it isn't funny. I have no idea what would work today, I guess they still make a round wheel. If I had to cash in by Mathews Conquest II and go back to the Ultralight, or move in the other direction, there very few points in the change. The ultralight, minus parallel nock, 80% let-off, parallel limb, with a Different cam, shorter ATA, etc... etc... very similar bow. For someone of my skill it's almost a wash. Over a short course of fire, I would probably shoot much better with the CII, with a long course, the lighter UL with more perimeter stability would be pretty hard to beat. Like someone else said, it's all about feel, the feel hardly changed.