RE: I shot the BowTech "Patriot" :-)
 

Frank,

Congrats!..didn't know you had a little one on the way...you better buy a BT now, cause once the kids come, that's all she wrote..you will watch the money go down the tubes in the form of poopy diapers & spit-up (you wouldn't freakin believe how expensive diapers are, and how fast they go through em)!

Well, I still see the ES as a viable option for you w/ only a slight diff in AtoA (which personally I cannot see making the difference between making a shot, and missing except in a extremely rare circumstance). The mass weights are similar if not favoring the ES a tad..my 2000 ES is lighter than the HTec in hand, I suspect the SandTrap models are comparable... but hey..you want, what you want..

RE: the DTI..honestly I've been having quicker & increased serving wear with the DTI compared w/ the old STI. My slide is set-up correctly for the Excel cam, and the problem started AFTER I had the DTI put back on correctly. I'm a bit dissapointed in that regard. W/ the WC cable I get a bit of discoloration, and my Q2 w/ TT 450 cable has had virtually no serving wear either....go figure..

The limb stop IS fantastic. One of the great things about all the bows I have shot w/ a limbstop is that they make you so much more consistent...there's no way you can draw any further(unless you are intentionally trying to break the darn thing), and on most onecams that's a sensitive thing..and one of the reasons I much prefer the original RL vs.the new models..it's still too easy to overdraw on the peg stop, and get some goofy shots. While the Peg stops are very versatile, I've come to dislike them from an accuracy (or forgiveness) standpoint for 2 reasons. First, the aforementioned "overdraw" circumstance and Secondly, the fact that unless you like 70-80% letoff you get reamed on the length of the valley. I sure wish Hoyt would go back to the original. Ah well... as I said..different directions..

Also the Infinity cam has the "deepest hole" I've felt. when you get back in the valley it's amazing how much tension you can let up and not have the string go anywhere..there's no middle ground..either you are way in or you are way out. For those who relax a bit as they anchor and then start the back tension up, it really is the ultimate. The Limb stop is one of those things that once you try, you probably cannot go back to any other system. I loved my PSE Durango, Fireflight, and Flash w/ LC's for that reason, and also my BM2000..it forces you (without being un-natural or uncomfortable feeling) to be consistent. Even compared to a onecam w/ a super solid stop on the track like the Mini-Max cam or a properly timed SL, it's much more consistent.

C'est la Vie

JeffB :)

RE: I shot the BowTech "Patriot" :-)
 

I see a BowTech Rascal purchase in the future.<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle> Sorry they don't come in 31&quot; draw either.<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle> Now, all jokes aside congrats on the upcoming addition to the family. Hope to meet you someday Frank.<img src=icon_smile_approve.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

Edited by - BowTech_Shooter on 02/06/2002 11:08:28

RE: I shot the BowTech "Patriot" :-)
 

ABM, ill give that glove a try and give an honest opinion, maby ill even bring my martin and show you what noise realy is. i think once you change to the 29&quot; draw and shoot some carbons you will be shocked and wont want another bow, your going to get something like 35fps faster, and to be honest it dont matter what you shoot as long as your happy and you think its the best, great. but i know what i like [:8]
Ron
ill bring a couple of carbons for you to take back for when you get your cams on.

RE: I shot the BowTech "Patriot" :-)
 

Bowtech Shooter,

Thank you for the well wishes. I look forward to meeting you some day as well.

Jeff,

Thank you too for the well wishes...:)...and for reminding me about the diaper issue...<img src=icon_smile_sad.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>

First, I cannot honestly believe that you are getting more wear with the dual track idler. If anything I would have thought less. I have had zero wear with my Versacam....something I couldn't say with the previous Versacam design or the original Redline. (But you and I share something there...I preferred the original Redline HO as well..:)...and I know what you mean about different directions) I have really come to admire the dual track design for all of the advantages that it offers.

Second, not to come on too strong but I hated the limbstop on the Lightning cam. I had endless problems with mine. If I drew too hard into it then it eventually torqued the cam. The problem, as I saw it, was the the limb was too far from the center of the cam itself. The limbstop, being long in length to compensate for the distance between the center of the cam and the limb, would keep twisting the cam as it hit the limb.

The cablestop that I have been using is shorter in length and because the cable is closer to the true center of the cam/axle it doesn't twist the cam. Granted, the wall isn't super hard like the limbstop variety but I wouldn't call it, in any way, mushy.

Again, I do/did prefer the original Redline to any of the current cam designs. Maybe Hoyt will take a more aggressive approach to cam design next year.

Hmmm, if I order a 31 inch Extreme Solo now then I will have to put the Havoctec up on Ebay (any takers? <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>)....

...let me feel one and really check out....then I will get back to you on this issue.

Matt..paging Matt...I am waiting for that address/phone number.....<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>....I don't have a Bowtech dealer in my area....

RE: I shot the BowTech "Patriot" :-)
 

Frank,

My son is just now getting to the early potty training age…honestly the diapers are much better than having to read him books like “Everyone Poops” (no lie, imagine reading a cartoon book about animals, birds, and humans anatomy and how we all do poop…you should see the rhino picture..EWWWWW..looks like someone turned on the garden hose!


RE: the DTI. Yup…I couldn’t believe it either! My HavocTec has as much or more wear on it than the original cable on my Y2K Defiant! (that bow has had a thousand and a half arrows through it I’m sure, if not more). I love the advantages of the DTI as well, it’s just the cam technology that’s “lacking”, IMO. And yes the stop is pretty good, not mushy. But you still can pull back a bit farther than you should.

The PSE LC cam bows did have a bit of torque applied, especially the LC1 (the one w/ 5 different stop “mounts”). They sold different size stops for each draw length module for this reason. This is also a product of limb torque (The Magna-glass limbs are worse than the Barnsdale limbs on the Durango) and quality of bushings. I’m familiar w/ the problem, but it has not surfaced on the Infinity cam to my knowledge.

I think the real reason the limb-stop works so well is nock travel: As most of us here know or have read, Most one-cams have uneven, and non-level nock travel. We also know that when a singlecam gets out of time it starts to affect the nock travel, and how well they shoot. The reason that the wall of single cam bows has become more solid is to make sure that the deviation of nock travel is consistent. When it’s consistent, the problem is minimized. When the first generation Mathews and Jennings cams came out, they really didn’t have that great of wall (especially by today’s standards), and they also had wider valleys. They also had very poor nock travel. Combine the three and you’ve got a recipe for accuracy disaster. By varying tension on the wall, or shooting from various points in a wider valley, it was seriously screwing up the accuracy, because the “mistake” in arrow flight was anything but consistent. As the one-cam’s have progressed those walls have become more solid, and valley’s have become tighter…and the reason is nock travel. The less variation (even minor) you have in draw length the more consistent the “mistake” and hence the increased consistency and accuracy. By designing an extremely narrow valley, and rock solid wall, you’ve got the best combination. On a 2 cam bow you can just tiller and synch tune the cams so that any variation at the wall or valley can be compensated for: no can do on the one cam.

And that’s why I love the limb stop (assuming it’s a good design w/ quality parts), as it makes the variation as absolutely minor as possible, and translates that into the most consistent arrow flight and accuracy. If you are drawing, anchoring, and executing the shot like a normal person, you can’t overdraw on the stop (creating a variation), and as long as your draw length is correct, you don’t create a variation by creeping. That, in addition to great construction is why I feel they (Bowtech) have the extra edge in the accuracy department. This is the reason why my Mathews Rival Pro to this day is the most accurate shooting Mathews I’ve ever owned. The wall was similar in feel to a limb stop, and that’s why the majority of the Mathews Pro’s shoot the Min-Max cam on the Conquest and C2 If their draw length warrants it.

I’ve had 2 “pro”-shop employees tell me that they could not shoot the BM2000 and Bear Codes (both w/ Supercam) worth a damn past 25 yards (because they were so poorly built) one day when I brought mine in for a new cable. I asked if those guys were shooting the stop, and they both said “no”, they had wanted the extra valley for hunting (both of these guys are good shots too). I tried to explain the whole nock travel thingy and they kind of just shook their heads and rolled their eyes. After I got my cable on, I went out to the indoor 3D range, and proceeded to shoot a 3 inch group of 220 FPS 2413’s out to a 40 yard McKenzie Caribou once I sighted in at 20. I told them I must have got a really well built one.

It’s not a perfect solution, but it’s the best one so far, IMO.

JeffB

RE: I shot the BowTech "Patriot" :-)
 

Frank,
You've got mail....!! Sorry I'm at work when I read these things and I am helpless to respond if you know what I mean!

Oh yeah.....I forgot! In my e-mail I wanted to mention that I think the &quot;Infinity&quot; cam is extra over the base price of the bow? At least I'm pretty sure some dealers are charging a bit more.
If that deters you, the original &quot;Post Feed&quot; cam is just fine!......That's what i had on my Mighty Mite, and my buddy swapped out his Tech29's PF cam for an &quot;Infinity&quot; cam for $40.00........I didn't see it being worth the extra $$, performance was the same, you can just play with the let-off and valley......and to a tiny degree the draw length.
Knowing you......you'll want to play.<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>

And congrats on the upcoming &quot;PABowbaby&quot;...I bet the kid will ba a real Mighty Mite.:)

RE: I shot the BowTech "Patriot" :-)
 

Thanks for the mail Matt. I am going to go check out some of their models this weekend. I found two other shops besides the one you mentioned that are listed as Bowtech dealers and that are reasonably close. It can't hurt to go to all 3...<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

And thank you for your kind remarks about PABowBaby.....but I bet he creates Havoc with all his TEChnologically oriented toys....<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

Edited by - PABowhntr on 02/07/2002 05:49:12

RE: I shot the BowTech "Patriot" :-)
 

Frank.........don't you mean TECHnology oriented toys?? <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

RE: I shot the BowTech "Patriot" :-)
 

All,

You will notice now that Frank is ignoring my posts... I think the whole poopy diaper thing has got him a little shaken up ;)

JeffB :)

RE: I shot the BowTech "Patriot" :-)
 

Matt,

Come to think of it, it is kind of funny how Bowtech picked that name after Hoyt had already introduced their TEC bows....<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

Jeff,

My apologies. I am in no way ignoring your posts...it was just that Matt got my attention quicker with that little witty comment about &quot;Mighty Mite&quot;...<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

...and I admit the poopy diapers had something to do with it. I wonder if they make Scent lok diapers??? <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>

Back to what you stated earlier.....considering what you posted about serving wear and my personal findings I can only come to two conclusions.....either Hoyt put together a really poor quality bow for you or the Excel cam shows much more wear than the Versacam. As I stated before I have zero serving wear now with the dual track idler Versacam....and I have checked several other 2002 Versacam equipped bows in the recent weeks...non showed cable wear...regardless of draw length or axle to axle length variations.

Could it be just a &quot;lefty&quot; phenomenon? <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

I am glad to hear that the Infinity cam does not have some of the same problems that the Lightning cam did. That was a big turn-off for me buying any other PSE Lightning cam equipped bows.

Second, you brought up the issue of level nock travel...... How is the nock travel with the Infinity cam? Have you checked it out yet? Is it typical of most single track idler wheel single cams?

I have always preferred cams with short valleys because I feel that they tend to promote less creep and better overall form....but there is a limit to everything and I am wondering if having such a sharp drop of into the valley and such a short valley could be detrimental to the shooter in terms of physical endurance? ie....how long before shoulder problems arise?

Finally, some day you and I are going to have to get together and you are going to have to show me this &quot;give&quot; that the Versacam's cable stop has. I have not experienced this issue...but that have more to do with my shooting form than the bow itself?

Thanks again for the great discussion Jeff....maybe we should move this technical discussion over to the technical forum?

RE: I shot the BowTech "Patriot" :-)
 

Hey Frank,

I was just razzing you about ignoring my posts… and feel free to move my posts wherever it is most approriate.

As I said, I’m as surprised as you are. Perhaps the new Excel cam is more similar to the old Saber in more ways than one.

Don’t forget that those of us who are draw length challenged get a substantially different feel on adjustable cams than those who have the cam maxed out. You’ll notice on some cam designs and settings that the cable/string will bottom in the track before hitting the cable stop (depnding on design , letoff setting etc). Oftentimes for shorter draw length shooters the cable will hit the stop w/out the luxury of having the extra reinforcement of the track as well.

Again, the amount of “play” (for lack of better word) is very small, but is noticeable in Hoyt cams at my draw length. Tug on a Mathew Conquest w/ a 28” standard Max cam, or a B/J PWCII w/ a 28 or 29” module, and you’ll feel what I’m talking about. You can put a bit too much pressure on the wall, and this can give you some those flyers.

As far as nock travel goes, I’ve had 3 reports on 2000 model G-3’s w/ the FM. One I witnessed, and 2 are reports from members here whom I consider quite knowledgeable and trustworthy (as would you). Those 2000 models did not have level nock travel. The new 2002 G3.2 and the FM has apparently been re-machined to insure that it does indeed have level nock travel. Don’t know otherwise. The Infinity/PF cam does not have level nock travel either (and BT makes no such claim), however I’m inclined to believe its minimal from the nocking point settings I need to get bullet holes.

Be that as it may, I was not necessarily discussing the amount of nock travel deviation, but rather the consistency of said deviation.

I find the Infinity/PF cams valley quite comfy and narrow at the same time. You have the feel of wider valley without having a wider valley. That’s what I mean by the “deep hole”. I’ve heard other folks who are not BT owners say the same: they love the way the PF cams “hold”. The valley on the Infinity cam does get narrow at below 65% letoff and is not as comfy, however there’s no “grey area”, you are either in or out, and you will know it.

If you happen to like High letoff (75%), you might want to stay w/ the standard PF cam, as the wall on the largest modules sizes is as hard as it gets for a non-limb stop design. But the Infinity cam is so much more fun to play with (amazingly, I’ve adjusted the letoff from 65 to 75 to 60 just to shoot the bow w/ different feels, and when I returned to the appx 65% position my sights were still dead on as before. The cam is quite consistent).

As far as speed on the ES, I know a fellow who was shooting an option 2 2000 model in the 320’s w/ a 31” module (5 grains). Even though the 2000 models ran long in draw length, the 2001/2002 models are getting the same or better speed w/ AMO draw lengths, due to the improvements made each year. My 29” MM shot 308 on the spec sheet, and shot 306 w/ loop, and tru-peep, and leeches close to the cam/idler). You can figure the same or better performance on the option 2 ES but add in about 15 to 20 FPS due to draw length and then you’ll need to compensate for heavier or lighter string stuff. (at 70 LBs.)

My 2000 model Option 2 w/ a 28 ¾” AMO draw(60LB peak 300 gr. arrow) shot the same speed as the spec sheet said w/ 1 brass nock: 296 FPS.

JeffB :)

RE: I shot the BowTech "Patriot" :-)
 

Frank,
Wooohooo! Another &quot;Matt / PA&quot;!!<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
or maybe a &quot;Matt / PAJr&quot;?....

Speaking of names......that's BowTech with a CAPITAL &quot;T&quot; so that makes it an original idea!<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>

You know I never heard such a big guy whine over bow weight,Bow length, heavy draw force curves, sharp drop off's into fatiguing valleys.....geez Frank what are you 6'4&quot; of porcelain?<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
&quot;I can't carry a 4lb bow.....it's just tooooooo HEAVYyyyyyyy&quot;(in my best whiny typing):)
&quot;I don't want to hurt myself with a harsh draw cycle.......ouch......&quot;

You could probably draw and shoot a 100lb Black Knight comfortably (heck you could probably bend a Black Knight in half!<img src=icon_smile_tongue.gif border=0 align=middle>)....and your torn over a 1/2lb and a few inches......WAAAAAAAAaaaaaaa!!!!!<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

What do you have like a 2 minute walk to your stand? I'll tell you what, you pick up a &quot;Pro38&quot; and I'll come and carry it to your stand for you. <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

Hehehehe.



Edited by - Matt / PA on 02/07/2002 23:18:36

RE: I shot the BowTech "Patriot" :-)
 

Ok, I will take you up on that offer...<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

Alright, I am not whining.....but when I get a taste of the good life then why would I want to go back to a longer, heavier, stiffer to draw bow....just to gain 10 fps and some more kinetic energy that I already have more than enough of anyway?

90% of my shot opportunities are limited to 20-25 yards...with the other 10% being between 25-35. I haven't done trajectory comparisons between a bow shooting my setup at 275 as opposed to one shooting 285-290 but I can't believe that the difference would be significant especially at those distances.

Kinetic energy levels are really a moot point in my case. I am generating 70 ft. lbs of kinetic energy now....what do you want me to do..shoot 3 inch cutting diameter expandables so I need to up my kinetic energy level another 10 ft. lbs?<img src=icon_smile_shock.gif border=0 align=middle> <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

Let me &quot;turn the tables around&quot; and ask you this......from a hunting standpoint why did you need to switch from that 31 inch axle to axle length-7.25 inch brace height bow that you were shooting with 80 ft. lbs of kinetic energy to a 38 inch axle to axle length bow with a 6.75 inch brace height that is generating 90 ft. lbs (? I forgot) of kinetic energy?

It isn't because you need more kinetic energy to open those expandables you are using...nor is it because of any flatter trajetory that you are going to get going from 319 fps to 336 fps.

So, in essence, you have gone to a longer bow with a shorter brace height to get an additional 17 fps, which from a practical point of view, doesn't make that much of a difference when we are comparing speeds at that end of the spectrum.

Matt..I am playing devil's advocate here and you know darn well that I never condemn anyone for their bow choices..
.........especially not in your case...since you have such fine taste, but I am trying to relate that all of this is a matter of perspective. I know you switched bows because you wanted something that would make you a little more competitive on the 3D scene.

A 10 fps increase is not substantial in my situation and the only way that number would change would be if I switched to a lower brace height bow or a lighter arrow or a heavier draw weight....all of which I could do but I don't see the need to. I have finally found a combination that works perfectly for me for hunting.

Something else to consider is the comparison in speeds between the two bows in question...the Extreme Solo and the Havoctec Versa. Given your estimations on speed...as well as Vic's I would gain roughly 10 fps with my current setup (using the 420 grain arrow) right? Ofcourse, they are just estimates but still.... Now, what is the IBO speed rating for the Extreme Solo with the Option 2 ....312-319? The Havoctec Versa's is 300 fps which is, obviously, 12-19 fps slower than the Extreme Solos.......Now I am only about 11 fps slower than the Havoctec's IBO speed with my setup.........but your estimates on speed could place me as much as 19 fps slower than the IBO speed for the Extreme Solo. Would that imply a higher efficiency rating for the Havoctec Versa even though its draw cycle doesn't help to store as much energy? Could that be because of the design/configuration of the riser/limbs? The materials used in the limbs, strings, etc??? Or something else?

So, if we tear this down even further we could surmise that the only difference between the two bows is the aggresiveness of the cam itself. If I were to put the original Redline 65% letoff cam on the Havoctec I would be willing to be that I could get 311-315 out of the bow at IBO specs. We compared a very similar situation last year with your Mighty Mite and my Havoc Redline. We were able to achieve roughly the same speeds because the one inch longer draw length I was using was roughly equivalent to the one inch shorter brace height you had on the Mighty Mite.

Jeff mentioned that Hoyt went in a direction different from the one he wanted to go in. Judging by his current choice in bows I would be willing to be that he felt Hoyt sacrificed performance in order to gain adjustability/marketability of their bows while reducing production costs....hence getting rid of the Redline cam, heavily pushing the Command Cams Plus and the Versacam...while still keeping the Saber/Excel cam for those few folks that still prefer a super soft drawing single cam.

Like him, I wish Hoyt would have redesigned one of the single cams to produce blistering speed...the new Redline that was introduced last year just doesn't do that with mid range brace height bows. Hopefully they will come up with something to remedy that for next year.....because that was also my only complaint for the 2002 lineup...they were all slower than last year's.

Ok, now we are going into a totally different area so I will stop....hope I didn't confuse, disappoint or tick you off.....I was just rather trying to related my point of view on this issue.

I am still going to go check some out this weekend....you convinced me enough to do that...<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>

RE: I shot the BowTech "Patriot" :-)
 

Hey Frank, it just so happens that I have an extra post feed cam from Bowtech from when I switched my Pro38 over to the infinity cam. If you ever feel like really tinkering....


Rod

RE: I shot the BowTech "Patriot" :-)
 

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Jeff mentioned that Hoyt went in a direction different from the one he wanted to go in. Judging by his current choice in bows I would be willing to be that he felt Hoyt sacrificed performance in order to gain adjustability/marketability of their bows while reducing production costs....hence getting rid of the Redline cam, heavily pushing the Command Cams Plus and the Versacam...while still keeping the Saber/Excel cam for those few folks that still prefer a super soft drawing single cam.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>

Frank,

The &quot;direction change&quot; I spoke of is not only cam design, but really that Hoyt has turned down a different path then they have historically walked.

Excluding the Tec riser, Hoyt bows of today have nothing in common w/ bows they made only a few years ago. Barring a very few leading edge ideas, they have basically become another follower rather than sticking to their guns like they did for so many years.

Doesn't mean they don't make a great product, it's just a very different product than it used to be.

I'm quite positive that market pressures are playing a significantly larger role in the decision making process these days at Hoyt than they used to.

JeffB :)

RE: I shot the BowTech "Patriot" :-)
 

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>I'm quite positive that market pressures are playing a significantly larger role in the decision making process these days at Hoyt than they used to <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>

...that statement would somewhat confirm my earlier comment.

Would you care to elaborate further on this issue?

RE: I shot the BowTech "Patriot" :-)
 

Pages back someone mentioned that folks had said that VFT is a lot like the Mathews long riser stuff. I watched the videos on Bowsite, and I have to say that it sounds exactly like the Mathews concept, which is hardly surprising given Bowtech's track record. The fact they may have taken it a few steps further than Mathews is just building on Mathews' base: A lot of people don't like the way this system looks and mathews has been breaking a trail for a while. Also Btech has been doing the same thing with its P38-40 bows. I don't know who first came up with the idea of a long riser short horizontal limbs. Drake compounds have looked like that (the limdbs part anyway) for years, though I don't recall anybody mentioned recoil as the reason, since in any even we didn't worry so much about that when bows shot heavy arrows at 200 fps.

I still think that Btech has some of the nicest looking bows this year. The BK2 is very interesting, can't believe (just an expresion)the velocity they are getting with this system, in a package which is pretty close to a target bow in length. What is the brace height now?

Also if we want to give credit where credit is due, at least Mathews and North american are offering bows which essentialy use the Saunder's string damping system. I have mentioned this option several times on this board, and how to make your own from a rear mounted stabilizer hole. I would certainly prefer to have it done OEM. There have been other bows that used something simmilar, but the string slammed into weighty pillars, and it looked high maintenance in some regards.

I like what I see from Bowtech. So far I think they have the most inovative line. Mathews has some inovative features also, It is much harder to evaluate from pictures what the benefit of a bow shooting a claimed 300 fps with a round cam is compared to one shooting 350 in the case of the BK2, but it may be a very effective package. In my case, what I need this year is a new hunting bow, so I am looking more in the Patriot's direction, or the Icon ? (is that the new Q2?). I also think the genesis stuff is important, the huntin/fishin model has a 30% let-off, didn't the kid's bow have zero? If this thing had a mechanicaly adjustible draw stop, it would be very important for beginers or folks who just don't care about the hyper technical approach.

What is the hot news from Hoyt? New variations on the tec risers don't impress me much. What am I missing?

RE: I shot the BowTech "Patriot" :-)
 

Frank,
Did I ruffle your feathers!?:) I didn't mean to.....just having some fun(you know that tho)

You know what you were saying got me to thinking.......I finally realized why you are such a &quot;Hard Sell&quot; on these bows.
You and to some extent myself are the exception to the rule when it comes to draw length.....especially you.
You said it yourself, you can pretty much get good KE with any bow you want (provided they offer a 31&quot;er<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>)......heck you could probably get 60+ out of my old Bear Whitetail Hunter.
Anyway here's my point......for you and me and Arthur P(poet and don't know it<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>)
We don't &quot;Need&quot; the extra KE.....I know I don't, I just enjoy the added &quot;Play factor&quot; that comes along with the fact that I got a great versatile bow.

However for the 29&quot; on down crowd......that difference in speed rating could mean the difference between a guy shooting 50ft lbs of KE with one bow......and maybe 60+ft lbs with a faster bow like many of the BowTechs......you and I know THAT'S where the real meaningful numbers are.
Not with us goofing around with 80 and 90ft lbs of KE.....or even your 70(which is upper end I'd bet of everyone here if we took a poll)

You aren't impressed with 20fps speed gains because you ,like me, are already faster than the average Joe......but to the &quot;Draw Impaired&quot; crowd 20-30fps increases are dramatic.
For that guy with a 27&quot; draw, the ability to own a bow that can shoot over 300fps!!.... for him could be a BIG help......at the very least it might help with any inferiority complex.<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>

I personally like to play......(so do you, you just forgot<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>) I like all the options a bow as fast and smooth as mine gives me......If I want to shoot it at 336 to impress the chicks I'm in!<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>......if I want to slow it down to 280 or so with a 500 gr arrow to impress the deer.....that'll work too.

If I want to shoot it at 65#, I can still shoot as fast or faster than everything out there or simply raise arrow weight to meet 3D speed limits......for hunting I'm also not going to be limited in broadhead choices either by a long shot.......I like functional extremes.

And that goes for SHORT bows as well.......I really loved that Mighty Mite, and I will own another one, I didn't pick up the &quot;Pro38&quot; to kill tanks......I got it for the versatility. It will do EVERYTHING and if it's the ONLY bow I own for a while I won't feel handicapped in anything I choose to do with it(from indoor spots to anti-terrorism). I feel for right now the trade off is well worth it.

The only other point I guess I'm trying to make is that I really feel like you are disregarding a great many terrific bows based on a current preference......I'd love to see your face after a 345fps arrow rips thru a chronograph with a nearly 7&quot; brace height! And smoothly and quietly at that. Who gives a poop if it's a little heavier or longer......and maybe some aren't a huge raw performance advantage, some of them are just great shooting bows that have design attributes to just make them easier to shoot and inherently more accurate.....And I don't just mean BowTech, I'm talking everything right back to Hoyt.

I'd be interested to hear how you like or don't like an &quot;Ultratec&quot; or a &quot;Maverick&quot; or a &quot;BKII&quot; or a whatever.....life's to short, Shoot hard!!:)There's a whole other world out there over 34&quot;.
Boy there's just too much good equipment out there these days isn't there?

You want the honest to gods truth about what bows I would be shooting right now if BowTech wasn't in the picture?......I know you're gonna love this.:) I'd be shooting a 60# Hoyt &quot;Ultratec CC+&quot; for 3D and target and a 70# &quot;Havoctec&quot; versa for hunting......there I said it! You happy?<img src=icon_smile_tongue.gif border=0 align=middle>

RE: I shot the BowTech "Patriot" :-)
 

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>For that guy with a 27&quot; draw, the ability to own a bow that can shoot over 300fps!!.... for him could be a BIG help......at the very least it might help with any inferiority complex.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>

Matt, correct me if I'm wrong, did you just slam the heck out of me? <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

My inferiority complex should be fixed here next week. I have a 29&quot; cam coming for my Q2XL. Glad I didn't just buy those dozen 27&quot; Carbons last month!!!

You are right though, the 20fps gains are priceless with us stubby shooters. I'll hopefully gain around 30-35fps total with lighter arrows, and 2&quot; of extra draw. My KE before was right around 60, so hopefully now I can branch up to around 70. I will be shooting lighter arrows though, so I'll have to find out my total set up specs before I can figure out what I'm hitting.

RE: I shot the BowTech "Patriot" :-)
 

Matt- if you end up carrying Pa's bow for him- the new Bow Tech- I'll buy perogie dinner for us all!!!!

RE: I shot the BowTech "Patriot" :-)
 

Matt- if you end up carrying Pa's bow for him- the new Bow Tech- I'll buy perogie dinner for us all!!!!

RE: I shot the BowTech "Patriot" :-)
 

......and after the 6th day God said let there be Pierogies, and there was......and a warmth and hapiness fell upon the land like had never been seen before......potato filling in a pasta pocket had been born and and a smile spread quickly among the creatures of the earth......:)

I gotta go check the freezer.........

RE: I shot the BowTech "Patriot" :-)
 

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Would you care to elaborate further on this issue?
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>

Not really...


JeffB :)

RE: I shot the BowTech "Patriot" :-)
 

Hee hee..jes kiddin..

Actually I'm a bit pressed for time at the moment,and elaborating on the subject would require a little more time than I have.

However, As soon as I am able, I would be glad to!

JeffB :)

RE: I shot the BowTech "Patriot" :-)
 

<font size=4></font id=size4><font face='Verdana'></font id='Verdana'><font face='Lucida Console'></font id='Lucida Console'>
New guy on block...Last time I posted on here was about 18 mo. ago. I posted a bow in the auction. Anyway, I recently got my new patriot that Matt talked about. GOODLUCK TRYING TO CONVINCE ME THAT I HATE IT ;). Lets move on. This bow is awesome. I recently put it through a chrono with IBO spec. arrow (350gr) I have a 28in draw, and the bow is at 70lbs. with strong loop and leeches. It punched out @ 293ft per sec. SWEET! Bowtech has really come through with the performance of their bows. A short draw like me is getting speeds that I would have never dreamed of before. I also own a Tech 29 and a Dual Pro on the way from an eBay auction that I recently purchased. The Hype is FACT!! I havee never shot with such consistency UNTIL the smooth as butter PATRIOT. By the way..I am shooting my 440grain Hunting arrow at 264ft per sec..never mind the speed do the math on Kinetic Energy. NICE. Just thought that I would give my 2 cents on the matter from an actual PATRIOT owner.

RE: I shot the BowTech "Patriot" :-)
 

Sorry about that, The new bow is a pro 38 Dual cam, Black and silver and also I had a peep on the string also when I put the PATRIOT through the Chrono.