99% let-off???
 

Anybody heard of this company before?

http://www.conceptarchery.com/

I have been following this guy' s threads over on www.archerytalk.com. His written details and his website information has a little left to be desired, they seem to be somewhat incomplete and confusing. However, from what I can compile, he is claiming he has a 300+ fps bow, Concept 99, with 99% let-off. Don' t quote me but it something to this effect, he claims the let-off doesn' t come from a module on the cam, rather notches in the axel, so the amount let-off does not effect the speed of the bow.

RE: 99% let-off???
 

I' ve seen his " Press Releases" on AT.

He really needs to hire someone who can speak english, proofread and/or type. Maybe then we can figure out what he' s talking about.:D

I went to the website too. Not much better. Looks like someone forgot the " A" in " Stealth" [:-]

Existing High letoff makes for a more difficult to shoot bow as it is due to the " noodle-y" string. I cannot imagine shooting at 99%.[:o]

Somebody will buy one I ' m sure. Not me, but somebody...maybe Rangeball..he' s always digging up strange stuff :D

RE: 99% let-off???
 

Hey, just because I dig it up and present it to the masses doesn' t mean I' ll buy it. I' m so cheap I usually wait for one of you guys to buy something and run it through the ringer and give a glowing report before I' ll let loose my hard earned cabbage... :)

I went from shooting 80% to 65% let off, the difference in holding characteristics and steady aiming is astounding... No more high let off for me, in the near future, anyway :)

RE: 99% let-off???
 

I don' t know how anybody could shoot it accurately. Being a finger shooter, I don' t like any let-off above 65 percent.

Seems to me that the axles would have to be very large to accomodate such a set-up without weakening it. Seems to me it would be noisy too.

RE: 99% let-off???
 

Tailor-made for the " Gucci" crowd and the " wannabes" who believe they are bowhunters. The bastardization of bowhunting is severely out of control. [:@]

If I had my way, any bow that has a let-off greater than 65% could only be used by those with a verifiable physical disability or limitation, just as some states do with the X-bow.

RE: 99% let-off???
 

How do I spell dangerous " 99%"

RE: 99% let-off???
 

What is it about the higher let-off that makes it so hard to shoot and dangerous? Is it the fact that you are not actually holding back any weight?

I would imagine that if you unknowingly creeped forward a little from full draw this thing may pull your arm out of socket. With no " forward" pull or weight to hold back I could also see a person trying to over draw or pull to hard against the back wall, almost pre-loading the limbs.

RE: 99% let-off???
 

Joe PA' s signature says it as good as it can be said. " The difference between genius and insanity is that genius has its limits!"

I can' t imagine trying to shoot a bow that only holds 7/10ths of a pound at full draw. Can you imagine the tendency it would have to torque!?! Even the release jaws gotta put an ' S' twist in the string! What keeps the string from popping out of the cam track??

RE: 99% let-off???
 

Would there even be enough poundage left for the cams to roll forward after you released the string? Seems to me it may just sit there at full draw, or go limp causing the arrow to fall.

RE: 99% let-off???
 

I have a sample Concept 99 here at the shop if someone wants to shoot one. It' s nowhere near as difficult to shoot/hold as some might declare.

I guess it takes a ' real man' to handle something that' s different from the norm!:D:D:D

RE: 99% let-off???
 

Seriously Len? How did you get a hold of one?

When I first saw the title of this thread I thought " crossbow" ...:D

RE: 99% let-off???
 

All that' s missing is the shoulder stock.

It' s stuff like this that puts me in a serious anti-technology mood.[:' (] I' m going to go hug my longbow.

RE: 99% let-off???
 

...and sometimes, it takes someone who is a " wannabe" but cannot or does not want to hack all that is required to be a true bowhunter.

That bow, and any other bows like it, will be responsible for putting people with bows in the field who should not be there.

With some manufacturers and retailers, greed for the dollar has become more important than the preservation of the sport.

RE: 99% let-off???
 

I don' t believe it will put people in the field that do not belong. We have two in the shop that I shoot for and you do have to hold it back because there is no valley. Very stout force curve also. The way the riser is designed there is no feeling of torque at all believe it or not actually shoots pretty good alittle bit of hand shock but nothing that can not be tamed with some sims products. Very interesting design though. One side of the axle is larger than the other and the string actually lays down on a groove cut into the axle. I shot a 60# 27" draw with a gt 55/75 arrow (around 375grains did actually weigh it) 258fps.

RE: 99% let-off???
 

sigep1967:

Apparently, you do not understand that there are people in the field today that do not belong, not because they know the truth regardless of the hype, but because they believe the hype. They know little about bow gear and the limitations of it and believe the gear does the work for them.

Hell, right here on this very website you have shooters proclaiming that it will be only because of their choice of bow, a particular type of rest, a popular string, and other various types of non-lethal gear that will be responsible for killing a deer for them.

RE: 99% let-off???
 

c903
I understand that but until you get your hands on one and feel the force curve you will not understand what I am saying. I don' t believe a first time bowhunter will like it very much. It does have 99% measured let off but it really doesn' t feel like it when you are holding it. Unless the shop dampens the vibration before letting someone shoot it a first time bowhunter will not like it! They will not understand about having to put all of the assecsories on it to dampen the vibration when a PSE Ar Hoyt or Bowtech doesn' t have to have it.

RE: 99% let-off???
 

sigep1967, Len,

If it handles half decent then what is it that has kept it from catching on? Is it the company, lack of advertising or just the public waiting for those “select few” to try it and like it before their money is spent on a gimmick? I can understand why so many may not care for it but in this age of modern technology there is nothing else like it. I would have to believe that it fits at least a small niche.

RE: 99% let-off???
 

Very new company so not much exposure yet. Now don' t get me wrong it is a very well built bow comes standard with WC strings and cables and laminated barnsdale limbs. He also has a very fast dual hatchet cam bow that is very nice. The workmanship is very good also.

RE: 99% let-off???
 

sigep1967:

Good observations and you' ve got you facts straight. Don' t let some of the posts bother you. Sometimes we have posts that " do not belong" .;)

Frank:

The owner/designer stopped by the store a few months ago and left us a bow to demonstrate. Like sigep1967 said, he' s a small company with some interesting ideas and progressive designs. Very good quality but limited advertising/finances.[:' (]

RE: 99% let-off???
 

Appears he is getting some " freebies."

RE: 99% let-off???
 

Toby from mo


The answer to your question about why is it harder to shoot high letoff bows is simple.

Take your bow and hold it at arms length and see how steady you hold it without drawing it and then draw it back and see which is steadier.You will notice you need the tension against the bow to hold it steady,basically making the bow feel lighter in your hand with lower letoff.


I can imagine the 99% letoff could be pulled off if the bow requires you to pull very hard in the wall to maintain full draw but this will actually take the letoff down a bit.In any case,doesn' t sound like a bow for me.But I would be willing to shoot one.

RE: 99% let-off???
 

Len... I' ve typed about 15 different drafts of this response to your high horse OPINIONS, but none of it wound up suitable for a family website. [:@][:@][:@]

RE: 99% let-off???
 

I may be wrong Arthur but I have a feeling that Len was not necessarily referring to your earlier post.

Thank you for keeping this civil though. This is only the second time I have seen a reference to these new bows and would like to keep the thread going if for no other reason than to promote awareness of some of the far ends of the spectrum of bow design.

RE: 99% let-off???
 

Arthur:

Please ' chill' .;) I was in no way referring to your posts. Although we many times disagree, I respect you and your opinions because you are a gentleman adversary.:)

How you hold, grip, or address the bow arm is the secret in shooting any bow effectively. Many, and maybe most, initiate too much influence on the bow and therefore find it more difficult to shoot higher let-off bows. The hard back wall available on most bows today associated with proper draw length will also make shooting higher let-off bows easier.

I don' t personally care for the very high let-off bows; but, I find that I can shoot them very well. I have a 4 time national champion who learned to shoot with 80% let-off. He has tried using the 65% modules many times but doesn' t care for them. It' s all a matter of how you' re conditioned associated with your fit and form.

RE: 99% let-off???
 

Frank, Len.. It doesn' t matter if Len was referring to my post or not. No matter how many smilies you stack on the end of comments like " real men" do this or that, or that ' some posts don' t belong" as a complete dismissal of a differing opinion, those comments are rude, immature and offensive.

But I do agree about the need for keeping up with the outer limits of bow design. Not out of interest - more like keeping an eye on the enemy.

Regardless of the shooting characteristics of the bow (and I have yet to hear either Len or sipeg talk about doing any 300/60X indoor rounds with one), the philosophical opposition that C903 raises is SPOT ON.

For me, this bow is an abomination that represents the end result of the influx of narcissistic ME generation types into archery. " To hell with ' the good of the sport' because it' s what " I" want that counts!" And the manufacturers are now happy to oblige with an attitude of ' To hell with the good of the sport, it' s the bottom line that counts." One thing for sure, things can' t get any worse. What? Mathews is going to come out with 99.2%? Hoyt with 99.3%? It would be funny if it weren' t so serious.

RE: 99% let-off???
 

Arthur,

Though I do not foresee myself shooting one of these new bows for the simple fact that I do not see an advantage for my personal tastes I do believe that it is a good thing to continue to experiment with different equipment designs in our sport. I do not feel that I fit into the group of archers who believe that technological change is a " bad" thing however, I trully respect their right to express their opinion as such.

In no way am I trying to be argumentative however, by the way in which your post reads to me it would seem that you almost take this issue personally.

RE: 99% let-off???
 

Arthur:

The " real men" comment was taken from a commercial and was meant to be a joke. Sorry if you took any offense. None was intended to anyone.

I' ll stand by my " Sometimes we have posts that " do not belong" . comment. There are some that are blatantly, harshly sarcastic. I welcome differences of opinion as I expect to offer my differences of opinion. How those opinions are presented is what I sometimes question. It' s those blatantly, harshly sarcastic posts that are " rude, immature and offensive" .

The ability of anyone to shoot 300/60X indoor rounds has absolutely nothing to do with the acceptance of any bow. I' m sorry but we' ll have to totally disagree on this one. My reasoning is that the shorter ATA bows do not lend themselves to indoor rounds; but, are very popular with the hunting community - and rightfully so. I wouldn' t use one, but that' s my choice. At least I' ve got a choice; which is what the archery community gets with let-off.

One man' s junk is another man' s gold. Some like the higher let-off where others do not. At least we have a choice and the manufacturers will pursue the variations and weed out those which do not sell. If the majority of archers want a specific design and any one small group is offended - they loose. I' ve had the misfortune of a manufacturer discontinuing a bow that I really liked. That' s life.

I agree with Frank that you may be taking this post too personally.

RE: 99% let-off???
 

Wow..this got out of hand…Everyone go to their neutral corners :D

As I see it, the guy is hardly ever gonna sell any if he’s relying on his own marketing/advertising skills ;):D

I suspect this will be like the Accu-draw or Accu-rest bow or whatever it’s called that’s been around for 10 years plus. If the guy didn’t have a good looking girl at his booth at the old BTS in 1996, no-one would even look at them ( I know I went back a few times to get another catalog and strike up a conversation with the cutey :D )

Regardless of the quality of the design, I think the vast majority will see this bow as a gimmick (I certainly do), and the interest shown over at AT (virtually zero..but possibly because no-one knows what the hell he’s talking about..hee hee) seems to confirm my own feelings.

Len perhaps you could elaborate on the design? My understanding is that it uses a tight bushing or bearings that causes an abnormal amount of friction on the axle? If so, what happens when the bushings start to wear? I can see this bow being very inconsistent after awhile if that indeed is the case.

RE: 99% let-off???
 

Arthur is a TREE-HUGGER!!!???? [:o]

;):D[:-]

RE: 99% let-off???
 

Hey guys I posted this question from a completely neutral position. I have only been bow hunting for about 10 years so I guess you veterans would consider me to be of the “new era”. This is a new technology that I hadn’t seen nor heard of before and I only wanted to know if it was legit, not if it had a place in our sport. Again, I can understand why some people wouldn’t like this technology but remember this is “our” sport and some us like 80% let-off, fiber optic sight pins, electronic range finders, artificial cover scents & lures, GPS units, gore-tex rain gear, in-line muzzleloaders and black powder substitutes. We also sometimes cook is microwave ovens, change channels with a remote control, talk on a cell phones and communicate with our fellow outdoorsmen via hunting forums on the internet. The fact that we have advancing technology and right to choose is why I choose to live on this side of the pond, take away those things and I would choose not to support.

So lets get back on the topic because though I may or may not choose to buy a bow with 99% let-off I definitely want to hear the pro’s and con’s behind the technology.

Thanks for understanding,

RE: 99% let-off???
 

You work for a marketing firm/department, don' t you Jeff? Care to volunteer your services???

:D

Sorry Toby, both for getting off track initially and for my last comment. :) I would like to see some pics of the bow personally as well as hear what Len has to say about his experiences with it.

RE: 99% let-off???
 

Don' t sweat it.

http://www.conceptarchery.com/sglcam2.jpg

RE: 99% let-off???
 

Frank,

Hee hee. I used to work in the Marketing Department of my company, so you are correct. My role was kind of a jack-of-all trades, doing a variety of tasks from keeping track of materials inventory to editing and writing those materials.

Volunteer? Nah. However, I know I could clean up his press releases to the point where the English Speaking World (and maybe even parts of West Virginia ;):D) could read and understand them :D For a price of course ;)

Toby,

Excellent comments. While I am joking around about the “press releases”, and I personally think the item is a gimmick and would never use it, I am interested in how it works too, just to satisfy my own curiosity.

RE: 99% let-off???
 

Jeff actually it uses needle bearings pressed into the limbs not the cam The axle turns with the cam. It is larger on one side than the other with 2 step downs if I remember right. The axle has a cut out in it where the string goes down into it like a track that is how he got the 99% let off. The axle is holding the weight. It is a very intersting design we will just have to wait and see how durable it will be in the long run.

RE: 99% let-off???
 

There was a time when bowhunters who stayed the course and endured the rigors of the sport were all a breed that hunted with a bow only to pit their skills against the superior abilities of the animal. Because the gear was simple and common, debates about how one piece of equipment was better than another seldom occurred. Most of the time, the discussions and exchange of information was about improving shooting accuracy and hunting skills.

Today, the sport has been bastardized by too much technology and too many manufacturers and retailers who speaketh with forked tongue. Bowhunting has been invaded by growing population of people who are more into flaunting what they believe is their latest and better-than-what-the-other-guy-has gear. They are constantly seeking any gear that they believe will simplify the sport and put accuracy and a kill on autopilot.

For these types, having to be in the " field" is probably a necessary inconvenience, necessary to allow them to put an arrow somewhere in the body of an animal so they can boast that they have now certified that their gear is indeed the most rad …and to justify the cost. Luckily, these types do not stay long. However, for the short time they are around, they do their damage. Sadly, others will take their place.

Due to a great increase of bowhunters and the advanced technology of certain gear, the deer kills (nationwide) have been on the rise for several years. It was reported that the number of deer kills (bow and gun) in the 2002-2003 season were incredibly and uncommonly high in comparison with earlier years (seasons), and that it is expected the numbers will increase. Where will (it) lead? I believe it will eventually lead to shorter seasons, a reduction in game limits and possibly (in some states/locales) an intermittent suspension of season.

In the past, states have suspended hunting season for certain game. I cannot remember which state it was, but I recall one state, several years ago, suspended rabbit hunting for 5 years. In my state of Illinois, there are now counties that you cannot shoot a doe for the first 30 days of the season. Due to more people getting into bowhunting large game, great increases in bow kills, diseases affecting the large game populations, loss of habitat, etc, the population control could easily become a population decline.

If you believe that the state (animal) conservation part of the state government is primarily in existence to provide you hunting recreation, you are sadly mistaken. The primary objective of any wildlife conservation arm of any state is to control and preserve a certain population of wildlife in accordance with the amount of habitat available at the least cost to the state. If a state government can meet their wildlife conservation goals with less cost to the state, called " budget," the state will leave your interests in the dust and you crying in the hallway.

With the increase in the number of deer being killed. -nationwide, I highly suspect that most states are watching the situation with a close eye and a grin on their face. Why? Because; if a state can find a reason to shorten the season, or suspend a season, but still keep the deer population controlled and preserved, they will jump at the opportunity in a blink of the eye. Shorter or suspended seasons means less conservation personnel are needed, less salary and benefits paid out, less overtime, less vehicles, less gas, less maintenance costs, less paperwork, less supplies, etc, …but the license fees will remain the same.

Can a 99% let-off bow be solely responsible the demise of the sport? Not quite, and ridiculous to believe so. However, it is relative when combined with all the other advancements that have degraded the sport.

Last: Huntingnet.com, other similar sites, bow/gear manufacturers, retailers, etc, do not control the sport; you do -the (true) bowhunter. Better wake up and smell the roses and take control.

Now, I am going to go hug Art' s longbow... and I might hug Art too. :)

RE: 99% let-off???
 

C903,

You make some great points, and I don' t disagree with all of hhem, but your argument falls flat because of one big piece of information you neglected to mention.

Deer populations (and Turkey, as well as some other game) over most of the country are totally out of control (especially in the South and East). Hunter' s can' t kill enough of them regardless of season or weapon. Bag limits are going up, seasons are longer, more effective weapons are desired by game commissions (hence inline-Muzzleloader & Crossbow restrictions being loosened up in many states over the past several years) .

Certainly in some small areas that may not be the case, but on average it is indeed. Your Rabbit example likely has more to do with the massive decrease in farmland, and the explosion in urban sprawl than it does with hunting ( a problem upland game has had for the past 30 years, really)

Irregardless, times change. I think Ho-Ho' s or Big Wheels don' t taste nearly as good in the plastic wrappers as they used to when they were in tin-foil :shrug: No going back.

RE: 99% let-off???
 

JeffB:

I did not neglect to mention the " big piece of information. I did not because in the scheme of things, the " down the road" conditions, the present size of the game populations are irrelevant. Nature is fragile and its (nature) stability can change rapidly once the wrong block is pulled from the stack.

As I indicated, you have to factor in all the influences; e.g., decline in habitat, diseases, greater numbers being killed by vehicles, increase in wounded and unrecovered deer, overkill of best bucks, etc. At anytime, the wrong block could be pulled from the stack.

RE: 99% let-off???
 

This is the fundamental point where we will have to agree to disagree. I think it' s extremely relevant to this discussion.

However, this thead has gotten way off track[:o], partly due to my own comments,[:' (] so I' ll refrain from posting further unless directly related to the thread title.:)

RE: 99% let-off???
 

What you are contributing is totally relevant. The discussion appropriately swung to the good and bad about some tech advances in the bowhunting sport. Namely, a 99% let-off bow.

In my opinion, today there are far too many people with tech bows that treat bowhunting as target shooting rather than hunting. All you have to do is read many of the posts on this site to realize it is so. Some of the shooters go out and stick a deer but cannot track an elephant in 6 feet of fresh fallen snow. After they stick a deer, they run to their computer and come to sites like this one to ask what they should NOW do! Gimme a break! [:@]

PS: Does the present size of game populations mean the populations will always remain static, and therefore let us all just blow the hell out everything by using every piece of scientific gear available?

RE: 99% let-off???
 

I grew up using modern equipment, love too hunt, and want to learn everything about bowhunting, including its history and its future. In Michigan you can take a doe everyday on private land until the DNR' s quota has been met. The DNR needs us to do that job, otherwise the deer population would explode. I believe that modern equipment (compound bows) has allowed us to be more efficient hunters. I could see the season being shortened if the deer population required it, but I don' t see technology being the downfall of archery, or its season. Hunters are more important than just controlling the deer herds, they help support some economies in rural areas, our licenses buy land and pay salaries. Technology puts money into the sport, and I believe helps our sport and the people it supports grow. If it is unethical or not pure enough to kill with 99% letoff than let the bowhunter and his dollars make that decision.
There is a certain element that is always going to feel that hunting is a competition, but where I am from its a way of life.