Hey Pinwheel...
 

How similar is the Merlin Omega Cam to the Darton CPS? Is Merlin licensing from Darton?

Could you please compare and contrast their similarities and differences?

I just received a merlin catalouge from you... My oh my, that Hunter' s Quest 31 is a pretty sweet looking little bow...

One more thing, can you tell me what kind of foam Merlin is using in their targets?

Thanks...

RE: Hey Pinwheel...
 

bump

RE: Hey Pinwheel...
 

Range-

Not speaking for PW12, but here' s my comparison thus far.

I always had Dartons w/ CPS cams for my hunting bows while using Merlins for target. It was time that I started looking for a new hunting bow with around 35" a-to-a, over 7.5" brace, and then I found out that the newer Merlin Quest 35 was coming out with new grip design and the Omega cam. Looked like a winner to me so I ordered it.

I LOVE Merlin design of riser, captive limb pockets, and pocket locks on previous Merlins, and the Quest 35 was no exception. I believe the only difference between the Quest 35 and Quest 31 is the limb length, and the risers are the same. PW12 can verify for sure.

Very smooth draw, similar to CPS cams but slightly different draw curve, maybe a slightly more pronounced drop into the wall. Rock solid back wall like the CPS cam. With the Omegas you can change draw modules without a bow press. Timing marks on the Omegas are set for the module you have on the bow, as opposed to the CPS cams where you set the timing marks to a particular module peg position and THEN change the draw adjustment to the desired draw length. On the CPS, you may have to " pencil in" new timing marks for your draw length at that position. The CPS' s allow for a wide range of draw lengths on one module, where the Omegas change draw length per modules.

The Quest grip is nice and thin with the wood sideplates, much thinnner than the Darton rubber grips. Personal preference on which style you like, but I prefer thin.

Out of the box the Quest 35 was quiter and less shock than my Darton Mav, but in fairness you' d have to look at brace height comparisons and speed, so it' s not an apples-to-apples comparison. I have not toyed with the newer CPS Extreme version so keep that in mind as well.

Really enjoying the Quest35..... :)

RE: Hey Pinwheel...
 

Thanks Black Frog, your opinion is highly valued. Just wish you' d through it around a little bit more... :)

I don' t think the pro-fusion limbs are offered on the M31. Do you have them? I wonder if the stated IBO fps are M35 w/pro-fusion and the M31 without, as the M31 is actually a tad faster. Do you think these limbs make that much of a difference on a hunting bow?

How do you have your M35 set up? What kind of performance are you getting? Got any pics of your bow :) ?

RE: Hey Pinwheel...
 

Range-

I did snap some digital pics before I had all the goodies put on, I' ll see if I can remember to bring them in for you.

I decided to try a trophy-taker rest on this bow, I got an incredible buy on one still in the box that someone had sitting around, so I couldn' t pass it up. Previously I had been using Bodoodle Pro500' s on my hunting bows which were great. I' m impressed with the ruggedness and simplicity of the TT and look forward to using this year in the woods.

My one teeny-weeny nitpick comment on the riser of the Merlins 35' s and 31' s is that there isn' t two arrow rest mount holes. I' m sure it' s total overkill, but I do like to double-bolt my arrow rests on the riser. I emailed Ben & Chris at Merlin about this and they said they would keep it in mind for upcoming bows. The camo on the Quests is not like " American" camo, more lighter-brownish colored pattern as opposed to the darker/green/grey mix you see in a lot of the Mossy-Oak-type stuff. I' ll see if I can remember the pics....

I have a fairly short draw, around 27.25" so my speeds (even with my Mav) have never been blistering fast. But that' s not what I look for in hunting bows. I' d rather be using heavier arrows, accurate, smooth, quiet, and shock-free at 240fps as opposed to going faster just for the sake of speed and giving up something else. When I first got the bow I put some lighter arrows through my chrono (don' t remember the numbers offhand) and remember thinking that the listed speeds would be about right. A-to-A was exactly at 35" and brace for my draw was 7.75" . I ordered the bow from 60-70#' s at 27.5" and then also bought the next smaller module to go to 27" draw. Currently I' m shooting it for hunting season at around 64#' s. The great thing about Merlin' s captive limb pockets is that no matter where you adjust the poundage to, the limbs are still captured in the pockets the same way. Unlike Darton, Mathews, Martin, etc, where if you loosen the limb bolts you potentially add some slop to the system. I never liked the idea of shooting a bow with the limb bolts backed out quite a bit. But with the Merlin pockets, I don' t have to worry about that. I ordered a 70# bow, backed off the captive limb pockets a bit to the mid-60 range. I get the same performance as having tight limb bolts and yet add a bit more brace height to my setup.

I do have the carbon ProFusion limbs on my bow. Do I think they make much difference in a hunting bow? Hmmmmm.... I had their glass limbs on my first Max2000 which performed great and I had no complaints. I think within reasonable hunting ranges that most of us would be just fine with any of the lower-end bows on the market and kill any deer just as dead as with a high-end dollar bow. Having said that, I do like the finer things when buying archery equipment, but I don' t necessarily think they are required to put an arrow through the boiler room at 20yds. But I' ll still elect to buy them....:)

RE: Hey Pinwheel...
 

Rangeball,

Yes, Black Frog knows what he' s talking about.
I value his opinion greatly also!
Get the Pro Fusion Carbon limbs and go with the Quest 35.
The Pro Fusion limbs are awesome!
One of the greatest limbs, if not the greatest, of all time!
I have them on my Max 2000 and Super Nova.
They are superb performers.
Fast, quiet, and top notch construction.



Sag.

RE: Hey Pinwheel...
 

Black Frog, looking forward to the pics :)

Sag, wow, that' s saying something, considering all the " Best Limb on the Planet" discussions we had in past years prior to the release of the pro-fusion.

I' m not really actively shopping for a bow, as my hornet shoots great, but I' m keeping my eyes open. If I go to the HQ35 with omega cam and pro-fusion, I' ll actually be losing 20 fps over my current bow, which I see as a step backwards. I' ve semi-promised my self that I wouldn' t get a new bow until one was available in a shorter ata/7" + brace that would fling a 500 grain arrow 270 at my 28" draw, at 70# max. My bow does 252 with the 500 grain arrow now, but I want a like a flatter trajectory. 270 is about ideal, as with a 500 grain arrow that would give me the best combination of flat trajectory and whopping momentum/ke, enough to bow hunt anything on the planet.

I' m having no problems with the force draw curve of my Hornet at 70#s, so while ultra smooth would be nice, it isn' t a requirement... Yet :)

RE: Hey Pinwheel...
 

Black Frog, I just bought a lite storm 2 and it has two arrow rest mount holes. Thats wierd that all their bows don' t have them.

Rangeball, I can' t comment on the Darton, but I' ve found the Merlin Omega cam to be a very smooth draw with a solid wall.

RE: Hey Pinwheel...
 

My other Merlins (Supernova and Max) have two mount holes as well. I can' t think of a good reason for not having two on the Quest. ??

BUT, If that is my only nitpick, life is good! :)

As promised, here' s some pics of the Quest35:

Left side of bottom Omega cam:


Right side of bottom Omega cam:


Top Omega cam:



Handle:


Fullview:

RE: Hey Pinwheel...
 

Holy &*$% that' s one sweet looking bow...

I may have to rethink my position in the I need a new bow area... :)

Thanks BF, very much appreciated.

RE: Hey Pinwheel...
 

It is very sharp, gets a lot of looks and questions at our club. I was the first one in the area to have a Merlin back when I bought my Max years ago, and now two other people in our club are shooting Merlins and I see others around at the target shoots. My Supernova still gets lots of attention at the spot shoots.....

The camo pattern is very different, but it has really grown on me. :)

The fullview pic is before I had mounted my rest, sight, and other goodies on the bow. But the string is one I built with 452 green and brown mix. The stock string and cables were ok, but I like to put my own on right away. Once again, probably overkill, but that' s just me.......

RE: Hey Pinwheel...
 

I can honestly say that is the best looking bow I have ever seen. I LOVE that camo, and the autum bronzed hardware. Those profusion limbs are damn sweet looking as well...

I just can' t seem to get my mind past the fact that the HQ35 with Omega cams is rated a full 20 fps slower than my Hornet. If it had at least comparable energy to my hornet, I' d be doing some serious plotting and planning on how to get my hands on one...

Quick, someone convince me :)

RE: Hey Pinwheel...
 

I played with some numbers to get a guestimate to see what I would end up with. Assuming I could get 270 with my 375 grain arrow with the HQ35 (my hornet does 90.5% of stated IBO with the same arrow, so that is the percentage I used), that would give me 61' #s of KE and .4489 of momentum. Probably still enough to get pass throughs on good shots with my 1.5" cut Rocket Meteorites...

I' d be losing 8' #s f KE and .0301 of momentum only to gain a smoother drawing drop dead gorgeous bow.

I can' t imagine it being much more quiet than my hornet, as it' s pretty well silent. Pinwheel' s shot both, hopefully he can point out anything I may be overlooking...

I wonder if you can get the HQ in 80# draw? Brochure only says 70, but you never know...

RE: Hey Pinwheel...
 

Rangeball,

I' ve had a new Diamond Hornet and the Merlin Quest 35, side by side. and I like them both, but Diamond cheats on the draw length, where as Merlin is dead on. The difference isn' t that great. The diamond' s draw is more harsh, but it also has a larger brace height. The Merlin is whisper quiet and it shoots a fixed blade broadhead as well as any bow I' ve ever seen. The level nock travel must have some positive effects on broadhead travel.

Both bows are a step ahead of most others out there, but I' m leaning towards the Merlin for my next bow, because of how straight an arrow comes off these omega cams.

RE: Hey Pinwheel...
 

SA- Where does the Hornet have a larger brace height? I just measured mine at 7.75" with my current configuration.

Range- just for you I went downstairs and weighed a few arrows and threw them through my chrono. Current draw is just a hair over 27" . Current poundage is just under 65# on my scale which I consider to be accurate within 1 pound either way through the 30-70 range. I have string leeches installed on the string, along with a d-loop and two tied-in nock points.

402gr arrow = 248fps (ave of three shots, all within .5fps of each other)
328gr arrow (just over IBO) = 270fps (ave of three shots, all within .5fps of each other)

Keep in mind that chrono' s can differ as much as 3%, so your mileage may vary. I' ve never verified my chrono with a calibrated unit.

So if you go by the general rule of " 7fps-ish" or so per inch of draw, at 30" draw and without the string leeches you' d be over Merlin' s stated 298fps IBO at 70#' s. Plus I have 1/4" more brace than they advertise as well! :)

RE: Hey Pinwheel...
 

Black Frog, you' re right, brace is about the same. :)

RE: Hey Pinwheel...
 

BF, thanks for doing that. It' s a big help. I draw 70#s over a 28" draw, so I' m guessing I could add about 7 fps for the 1" of draw and 8 or so for the 5 more #s of draw weight, which would put the 402 grain arrow at 263. Add 1.5 fps for every 5 grains to get the arrow down to 375 (the difference in your 402 and 327 grain arrow) would add 7.5 fps, guestimating a 375 grain arrow at 270.5, pretty darn close to the 270 I estimated above :), and a full 18 fps slower than my hornet.

I was gonna ask you to take those pics down, as they' re mesmerizing, but I think I' d go through withdrawal if you did . My hornet is cute and I love it, but I' ve always had a thing for redheads :)

Straight arrow, thanks for that info. Can you expand a bit on the draw cycle differences between the Hornet and Merlin? Drawing both at 70#s, next to the Hornet, does the Merlin feel like a 60# bow? Does it make you feel like you could draw more than 70#s to get the same degree of effort it takes to draw the hornet? Also, how would you compare their noise and vibration?

RE: Hey Pinwheel...
 

Oh, I did put on a virgin teflon cable guide before doing those speed numbers. I actually think I picked up a few fps with that.....

Let me know if you want any other closeup pics or views of the bow and I' ll snap them for you. :)

RE: Hey Pinwheel...
 

How bout one of it all sprawled out on a bearskin rug in front of a cozy fire?


:)

You wouldn' t believe how much thought I' ve been putting into this bow... totally rethinking everything I' ve convinced myself I need in my next bow...

Thanks...

:)

How' s the shock and noise when you fling that 327 grain arrow compared to the 402?

RE: Hey Pinwheel...
 

Surprisingly, very little. I have a set of the camo NV System I put on the bow when I got it. Probably not necessary, but I had them laying around, so might as well use them- they can' t hurt. The bow does come with Limb Savers installed on the limbs, and with the string leeches on there as well- there' s wasn' t a whole lot of difference that I could tell.

There' s more noise and hand recoil in my Supernova (which isn' t much) at 54#' s shooting heavy indoor arrows than there is in the Quest35 at 65#' s shooting much lighter arrows.

I' m not saying it' s the MOST quiet and shock-free bow I' ve EVER sampled, but it is very respectable in all aspects. :)

RE: Hey Pinwheel...
 

I would suggest taking an actual measurement of drawlength on your Hornet, if you haven' t. Diamonds are notorious for being longer than stated (usually a full inch). The draw cycle on the Merlin is very nice. It definitely feels like you' re pulling less than an equal draw-weight Diamond. How much less, I really couldn' t say.

As far as noise, I' ve always thought Diamonds were on the very low end - until I heard a Merlin with the new omega cam. It' s my friends bow and he has this Hunter' s Quest 35 set up for being quiet. He got the full aray of Sims products on it, no rubber peep cord, and nothing on the strinp except a stringloop. He has a 7" Doinker on it. In this configuration, it' s the quietest bow I' ve ever heard, and I' ve heard them all. ;) I should mention he put a custom string on it, and that made a noticable difference in noise level.

By no means is it a speed bow, but it' s no slouch either. The 31" Hunters Quest is faster if you want the speed and it' s very similar in length to your Hornet.

RE: Hey Pinwheel...
 

Thanks. If I get one, It would probably be the 35, as the 31 is only 7 fps faster and the pro-fusion limbs aren' t available on them...

All I know about my draw length on the Hornet is it has the 28" module, the cam is timed and the fit feels perfect. I' ll measure it the next time I get a chance. Maybe I' ll be pleasantly suprised :)

RE: Hey Pinwheel...
 

I just checked my draw length.

AMO is distance from string at full draw to narrowest point of the grip plus 1.75" , right?

If so, my 28" draw is 28.75" ... Hmmmmm :)

RE: Hey Pinwheel...
 

Range- if you do decide on a Merlin of any kind, be very sure of your AMO drawlength. They ship their bows VERY close to your ordered length, if not right dead-on. I have not seen any fudging of draw lengths with Merlin, and the three Merlins I' ve had all were beautiful to pull them out of the box, draw them back, and have them be just what I ordered.

Whatcha order is whatcha get. :)

Also, be sure to give PW12 a note to order your bow...... He' s the best!

RE: Hey Pinwheel...
 

Don' t quote me on this, but I' ve heard that Merlin is going to the Pro-fusion limbs on all their bows. I think glass limbs will no longer be an option.

RE: Hey Pinwheel...
 

SA-

Really?

I' m kinda surprised if Merlin does do away with their glass limbs. It is an affordable option for those who don' t have quite the budget, but still want to shoot the best. ;) I would think that eliminating glass limbs would take away from some of their potential U.S. bowhunter market. I' m sure PW12 will give us some clarification when he gets back from his vacation.

Target shooters who like the top-line stuff (Sag, you listening?.. along with myself) will usually buy the best there is to offer, even if it is a little more cash, so Merlin will always have that market.

RE: Hey Pinwheel...
 

Yeh, that' s what I' ve heard. In my opinion the price on the pro-fusion limbs still keeps the bow priced in-line with other top-end bows. Arguably, the most critical component on any bow is the limbs. With Merlin, you will now have one of the best, if not the best, critical component on the market.

It is my guess that the price on these limbs will come down when Merlin is producing many more of them. This should happen when all their bows have them, as well as other companies that will buy them to put on their bows.

RE: Hey Pinwheel...
 

Straight Arrow, what' s the time table for the pro-fusion only limb option? ' 04, perhaps? If they were available on the HQ31, I' d go that route. As a bowhunter, I love these little compact packages of dynamite :)

BF, Pinwheel is the only person I' d considering ordering one from if It comes to that. This close to ' 04, I' ll definitely wait and see what they have to offer before making any decisions. Besides, the hornet' s all tuned up and ready to go, plus it' s paid for :)

Is the way I described AMO draw length measuring correct?

RE: Hey Pinwheel...
 

Yup, you got it.

RE: Hey Pinwheel...
 

I don' t know. A friend of mine tried to order a Merlin and was told by the shop, that he could only get it with the pro-fusion limbs. For all I know, he was placing an order for an ' 04, or was asking about ' 04s. I would guess you could still get glass limbs on the ' 03s if they' re still in stock. I think my friend was told the ' 04s would come out sometime in November.

RE: Hey Pinwheel...
 

So how much draw length flexibility is there in the Omega Cams? Suppose I order one at 28.75" draw, and end up needing 1/4" less or more?

I believe with Darton' s CPS you can set at 1/8" increments, pretty flexible. Is the Omega similar?

Also, I' m hearing rumors that the new Darton cam is still silky smooth but even more smoking fast... I wish Merlin would play the energy game a bit more.

RE: Hey Pinwheel...
 

The omega cams have interchangable modules for each 1/2" of draw range. I didn' t look close, but I think there are a couple pegs for adjusting minor amounts. I' m sure you can get whatever draw length you need. The dealer you go through should be able to give you the details on the cam.

RE: Hey Pinwheel...
 

Range- You change draw in 1/2" steps with the interchangable modules. I think Merlin has 3 different sizes of the Omega cams to cover certain draw ranges. Setting the adjustable peg on the Omega is for whatever particular module you have on the bow. Like for the 27.5" module I had on the bow the peg was in one position, but when I installed the 27" module I had to put the peg in a different position. The instruction sheet details where things should go for which modules and which version of Omega.

For the between module draw lengths, I assumed it was just done by string/cable twisting and untwisting. As long as the cables are in the tuning marks for your setup, things should be fine. This is different than Darton where you have 1/8" pegs on the cam that give 1" draw adjustment.

RE: Hey Pinwheel...
 

The pro fusion method is also used in the case of the fiberglass limbs. They not be as efficient, or as fast. But believe me. They are on my Quest 35 and I love them.
Dylan

RE: Hey Pinwheel...
 

You guys have been busy while I' ve been away!;) Now, I' ve got a million e-mails/PM' s to catch up on, but I' ll try to give you my quick thoughts on this bow---

EXCELLENT.

The bow has all of the attributes that the guys have stated above, and the Omega system is by far the best hybrid system on the market IMHO because of it' s simplicity and the fact that you gain straight and level knock travel at ALL drawlengths as it has been configured that way.

The Quest 35 is super quiet, handles great, and is extremely accurate. I also sell Diamond bows--the Diamond is a nice bow, but when you set it next to a Merlin it' s like placing a bowie knife next to a scalple-- it just doesn' t have the same craftsmanship or as many attributes. All depends on what you need and/or want I guess.

The HQ 31 is glass limb only.

I' ll try to get back and answer more on this later. Good shooting, Pinwheel 12

RE: Hey Pinwheel...
 

A slight overstatement in my opinion. ;) In fact, with them sitting side by side, I prefer the finish and look of the Diamonds, though I do like Merlin' s camo pattern. The machining on the Diamond riser is top-notch and the design vastly prefered by me.

I own a new Diamond and will probably own a Merlin shortly. A friend has a brand new one and I' ve shot it quite a bit. The Diamond' s limb pocket is an incredibly simple design that works very, very well. It is machined impecably and the simple limb pocket, limb rocker system they use, is very good. Tolerance and fit on this limb pocket is fantastic. Your limbs will not move in this pocket. The Merlin' s limb pocket is far more complex and I for one, don' t like having to untighten, adjust and then re-tighten those 10 or 12 limb pocket screws each time I adjust draw weight. The reason I' ll put up with this, is because I really like the new Omega cams. If it wasn' t for those cams, I doubt I' d buy a Merlin.

When I bought my Diamond, I checked the limb pockets and cam alignment on every Diamond in stock (about 20 of them). They were all very close. I' ve yet to see this close of a tolerence from any other manufacturer I' ve checked. I put their limb pocket tolerances and cam alignment way above average.

I will say the string supplied by Diamond isn' t so hot, but then again, I replace the string that comes with any bow.

RE: Hey Pinwheel...
 

I really, really, really love my hornet, but at this point if I was going to choose a bow purely on aesthetics, it would have to be the Merlin HQ 35. But, at this point that' s not enough to make me pull the trigger and buy one. I don' t want to lose any energy that I' ve already paid for :)

Straight Arrow, what don' t you like about the stock Diamond string/cable? I got a new one from them last year, $25 for the set, after it shot in, re-set and it hasn' t moved yet.

I asked the following questions on Merlin' s website feedback sheet, and Ben Jones responded-

Q- Do you ever see your company producing the HQ with some
version of the omega cam with an IBO along the lines of 320+, similar to
Darton and Bowtech? I draw 28.75" at 70#s, and would like to fling a
425-450 grain hunting arrow at least 270-5 fps. Is this performance
possible with your current HQ bows, assuming only 2 brass nocksets on the
string? Also, do you have plans to offer your pro-fusion limbs on the HQ-31?
Thanks, you make an awesome looking product.

Ben' s Answer- The Quest-31 is likely to be discontinued shortly. The Quest-35 will
remain. There will be another bow I cant tell you too much about just yet
that will be around 33" axle length and 7" Brace height that is faster than
the Quest-31 & 35. Speeds are still being tested at the moment, along with
some faster cam options.

One thing we want to do is keep all the brace heights to a minimum of 7" for
2004. Dropping brace heights does increase speed, but consistency suffers
significantly. We will not be going down that road just to boost the speed.

I don' t realistically see us getting above 320fps and maintain a 7" brace
height, but it looks like we will be close.

There will be full pictures and specifications of all the new products in
December.

Best regards
Ben

RE: Hey Pinwheel...
 

Ohh, Ben is letting some of the kitty out of the bag!;) Yes, we' ve been developing a new concept bow for awhile now, and I can tell you it will be quite sweet and will easily compete with anything on the market.

They are also developing a lower priced " midrange" model to be released in 2004 for those who do not have the chicken for a top-line Merlin, but it will still have great attributes.

SA-

Don' t get me wrong, there is nothing wrong with a Diamond bow![:o] If I thought there was, I would not sell them. The Machete is a great bow and I' ve sold quite a few this year, along with some DOA' s and Undertakers. No problems, great bows!

BUT---

I reiterate, the Merlins have the finer attributes. All of the little details that may annoy you are heartily accepted and welcomed by many others. There are reasons why Merlin has the locking bolts and adjustable pockets, and even the little thumb-knuckle recepticle so you don' t get theat annoying callous like on so many other bows---- and those detail reasons and others are definately attributes. Are they necessary for everyone? No, of course not, but they are detailed attributes nonetheless, and ones that simply help IMHO to build a finer bow.

Yes, the glass limbs will be discontinued for 2004. They also have their fingers into some other new things that should raise a few eyebrows come December/January.

As Ben stated, I have to do the same-- that' s all I can give out right now. More soon.

Good shooting!;) Pinwheel 12

RE: Hey Pinwheel...
 

There' s probably nothing drastically wrong with them, but I' ve been shooting strings that I make, and I hate to brag, but they are superior to anything you that comes packaged with a bow. I' m spoiled and now the little things bother me. The servings are less then the best on the Diamond strings. I like the string supplied with the Merlin a bit better, but I still won' t use it. :D
_____________________________________

I guess I' ve always been one of those " less is better" people. Or maybe I should say, " more is not always better" . Let me give you an example. I own a Martin that has many 10' s of thousands of shots on it. The simple limb rocker system that Martin uses, is bullet proof. A few hundred thousand shots later and I' m confident that this system will not fail. The limbs or riser may break, but the rockers will not wear and it' s position in the riser should remain the same. When I look at bows, that have rubber pads and set-screw all over the place, I get a little nervous about how it will hold up after many thousands of shots. I know rubber ages and gets brittle. Screw also have a tendancy to get loose and fall out (my friend lost one from his Merlin in the first month that he owned it). Little things that may or may not affect accuracy or noise level, but are annoying all the same.

RE: Hey Pinwheel...
 

Hey guys let me jump in here for a minute. I' m getting ready to order another Max. I' m shooting a 2001 Max W/rapid cams. What is the differents between the two modules Ben offers with the rapid 2 in comparision to the cams on my 2001 Max? One is a speed module and one is a smoother draw according to the web site. The draw cycle on my 2001 was what made me a Merlin shooter. I can' t image the new and improoved cams. I' ll be using this for 3-d and target mostly. I don' t usually order a bow without feeling it or drawing it but Merlin is an exception. BTW I' ll probably wait till the 2004' s are out unless Pinwheel makes me an exceptional deal on a 03 left over. LOL. Thanks. Jerry