Rangeball

Based on my recent chrony testing and looking at the state of bows on the market, I figured my Diamond Hornet will fit my needs until somebody comes up with a bow that will push a 500 grain arrow 270-280 fps at my current 28" draw at 70#s.

But I' ve been thinking... Back when I was bow shopping, I remember that drawing a mathews felt like it was much less weight than the Diamond due to the FDC difference, even though the scale said they were the same.

I can handle the Diamond at 70#s no problem, can stop it in mid stroke if I creep too far forward and smoothly pull it back to full draw. I can hold it at full draw for extended periods of time. It is no where near too much bow for me.

I' m wondering if perhaps an 80-85# bow in a much smoother cam configuration like Darton would give me a performance leap and still provide the feel of my 70# Hornet? With that much added draw weight, I could most probably fling a 500 grain arrow at my current 28" draw around 270-280ish, given I can get 252 fps with it out of my Hornet now.

What do you think? Is there a smoother drawing cam than the Darton CPS?

Len, just for giggles, how fast will a shorter ATA longer BH CPS cammed Darton set at 28" draw and 70#s fling a 500 grain arrow?

PABowhntr

Ignoring the Darton part of your quote and just focusing on the issue of a smoother drawing cam.....


It seems that we go somewhat round in round in circles on this issue. What I mean to say is that 10 or 15 years ago we had " softer" drawing cams that were shot at heavier draw weights in order to increase our speed and flatten our trajectory. Then we went to harsher drawing cams and slogans like " Pull less weight to get more speed" came into play. Now I see some companies taking up the banner again of " Its so smooth that you can pull more draw weight" .

I think the problem with all of these methods is that they look at a bow' s set draw weight as being a true indicator of the bow' s draw cycle and subsequent energy storage when in fact that is not necessarily the case. Your question Rangeball is a perfect example. The cam style itself in large part dictates the force draw curve which in turn dictates how much energy the bow is capable of storing and releasing....whether it be a gradual draw cycle up to a " heavy" peak weight and then a gradual transition into the valley or a relatively quick jump up to a moderate peak weight and then a more prolonged plateau at that peak weight into a shorter valley. In either case there is only so much energy being stored because of the subsequent shape of the force draw curve.

I think I read in one of Arthur' s recent posts where he quoted Norb Mullaney' s use of measuring that stored energy at each inch of the draw cycle and then giving it a total value. This seems like the only way to trully compare what you are looking to compare. For example, if you have your Hornet with a set peak weight of 70 lbs and a stiff draw cycle then the total value might be (just to throw a number out there) 290 because it holds at or close to that 70 lb draw weight for a longer distance of the draw force curve. On the other hand that 80 lb bow with a softer draw force curve does not maintain that 80 lb peak weight for very long in order to keep the draw cycle well rounded. So, even though the 80 lb peak weight might be 10 lbs heavier than the 70 lb model the two end values might be close because of the different shapes of the two force draw curves.....and because the two end values are similar the stored and released energy would be similar and you really would not gain much from it.

Now, I did say that I did not want to necessarily mention Darton simply because their cam design in particular seems to be very efficient given the draw cycle and thus capable of helping to store and release more energy than some of the harsher drawing cams on the market.

Hope this aids in your discussion.

Rangeball

I agree Frank. I' ve seen the new mathews/ Jeff Murray blurb. Funny, when I hunted with Jeff he was more a speed freak then he seems to be now with his 27" draw (he was toting a conquest and a Z max then), but that was in ' 97 before speeds took a big jump. Perhaps fps, energy and trajectories are where he wants them now so he' s looking for smoothness, I don' t know.

I chose Darton as their CPS cam on some of their bows state 312 fps IBO, very close to the 318 fps of my Hornet. I' ve never drawn one, but every post I' ve ever read speaks of the Darton' s silky smooth easy drawing characteristics and ability to actually deliver stated specs. Since it is close out of the box apples for apples, I figured it would be a good one to hypothesize with in order to avoid the " don' t gain much from 80# due to the FDC over 70#" you alluded to above, which I whole heartedly agree with.

I know what drawing a 70# Hornet (Bowtech PF cam) versus a 70# MQ-32, FX and Q2, the mathews seem much easier/smoother to draw, but were much much slower than what I was looking for (Hornet vs. MQ 32 with identical set ups, hornet 50 fps faster). I assume the Darton at 70# would be just as smooth if not much more so than mathews, but store more energy comparable to the Hornet.

I did note on Darton' s website they only state bows up to 70#s, so I don' t even know if an 80#er is possible, but it' s fun for discussion

Len in Maryland

[color=#663366]I' m busier than a ' one-armed-paper-hanger' , but I' ll give you a quick answer.


Yes.

Higher than 70# is possible, but not from the factory. [/color]

Rangeball

Len, I appreciate your quick words at this time of the year, which I' m sure is VERY busy for you.

If you can stop back buy later and add more, I' d appreciate it. When you find the time. No hurry.

PABowhntr

Not to sound like one of the typical Hoyt gurus but since the Cam and a Half is now acknowledged to be so similar to the CPS system then I am curious as to whether you have considered any of their bows especially since they do offer most of them in 80 lb peak weights?

Rangeball

Frank, Hoyt was my second " choice" for this discussion, I defaulted to Darton as they have a silky smooth draw rep. Not sure about the Cam.5...

At this point, I' m just thinking out loud, not actively pursuing a new bow purchase

However, I' m gonna post a link I found that opened my eyes and goes along these lines... Tons and tons of info based on real life studies.

PABowhntr

I know...and much the same of what I do from time to time. Creative thinking.

I think that you could say that the two draw cycles in question are more similar than different in the regard that we are making reference to. They are more alike to one another than they are to anything else on the market.

Rangeball

Frank, are you saying the cam.5 is as easy and smooth as the Darton? Which one has the edge?

I' ve never drawn either... Will change that some day, maybe sooner than later

There' s a Darton/Hoyt dealer in a town 20 miles from me. I' ve tried to stop at his shop probably 6 times in the past year when passing through. He never ever seems to be open...

Rangeball

Frank, was just doing some checking around at Hoyt' s site, for some reason it was stuck in my head that the razortec had a stated IBO of 330 fps. However, it' s " only" 310, with the Havoctec at 308 with 1/2" more brace.

When the razortec was originally introduced, I swear you posted saying it was 330 fps... Am I nuts?