Rangeball

Art, I guess where I' m getting confused is if both arrows illustrated above are of the same spec with the only variable being weight, and the lighter arrow penetrates slightly more than the heavy in a dense material, why would is suddenly not be able to penetrate as well in an animal " not designed to stop an arrow" that is " 70% water" ?

As for the quotes, if an amount of gadgetry will allow me to become proficient in placing my shots at live animals where they are intended at the ranges I am comfortable taking them, I' m fine with that. If some think that makes me immorale or unethical, that' s their problem. The demands of todays world simply don' t allow the luxury of quantity practice time. Believe me I wish they did, but they don' t, so instead of avoiding the pastime I love second to very few things because I can' t follow someone elses view of the game, I hunt with what allows me to get the job done efficiently.

Arthur P

Rangeball, I' m not saying the lighter arrow wouldn' t penetrate as well. I' m saying I don' t believe they would and that shooting into foam does NOT prove a thing, other than how the two would penetrate into a foam block.

An animal is not a homogenous blob of material. It' s hair, hide, flesh, fat, bone, blood.... Those tissues react to a cut totally differently than foam does and the fat, blood and other body fluids lubricate the shaft where a foam block does not.

A very, very common complaint. Also the basest of all cop-outs. The cruel world doesn' t ALLOW time for anything. It never has. One must MAKE the time to do the things one really wants to do. If you don' t want to make practice time available for yourself with the gear you' ve selected for hunting, what does that tell you about the stuff you use? It' s like I said on another thread. This newfangled equipment simply is not fun to use and most people avoid shooting it until they absolutely have to.

Rangeball

I don' t know Art, I' m having a blast and I still put in a full week or work, chase two kids around to every thing they are involved it, get most of the chores done and the wife' s level of bitchin' is down to a dull roar, at times...

And I can get in adequate practice time with the equipment I choose to use and have no doubt I am proficient in it' s use. Some may think it' s a cop out, I prefer to see it as a compromise that keeps me in a tree...

Arthur P

Yeah, well there' s where I have an advantage. I' ve only got one kid, and I' m half deaf so the wife is always at a dull roar.

But even when I worked 55-70 hours a week, I still had time to flip on the light in the back yard, get out and shoot a few arrows out of my sticks every night. Beat the dickens out of flopping down in front of the tube and I wasn' t terrified of killing someone a block away because a release had pre-fired.

Rack-attack

Come on Art - not fun for you - because you are so resistant to change

I love the new stuff - This stuff you despise - is one of the big draws for me and keeps me very interested in the sport and in shooting.

Why you always dissing us techno guys???

Do we scare you

Arthur P

Because you deserve it.

In one way, yes. I think you' re killing off the sport, whether destroying bowhunting by driving up hunter success ratios or by intimidating newbies to the point they don' t take up archery as a family pastime.

JeffB

Tangent

Wow Arthur. I' m surprised to see your response to Racks first question. I don' t see any smilies, so I can only assume that was meant in a snarkey manner.


As for your second answer. In the vast majority of states, higher success ratios are a good thing with the huge upswing in game populations in most areas of the country. In my area, guys can' t kill enough deer, and same w/ my home state of VA.I could see where this might have some (very little IMO) effect on some western game species, but with all due respect Arthur, this is the " sour grapes" kind of response I used to have to drudge through in every other sentence in Traditional Bowhunter magazine: a publication I stopped reading because it was filled with so much " I' m anti- anything I don' t shoot myself" propaganda written by great hunters who also happen to be pompous asses (at least on paper). Too bad becuase otherwise it' s a fantastic hunting resource...

In addition as someone who has worked in the industry (and still does to a certain extent), I don' t see compounds discouraging newbies at all. In fact it' s just the opposite. Just as in-line muzzleloaders have brought more cross-over gun hunters. We sell hundreds (yep..hundreds) of low-end beginner bows each year. Compared to maybe 20 or 30 trad bows. Honestly, I see more people turned off when we show them trad equipment. Sad thing really, but fact is most people don' t have the time nor can they make said time w/ the rat race of today. Things are different these days(for better or for worse), and different standards must be applied.

I' d rather hunt w/ trad equipment but Family issues, health issues, and time constraints from work prohibit me from doing so. So I hunt w/ modern bowhunting equipment. I' ll have you know though, that I practice several times a week, year round. With traditional equipment, to maintain a level of proficency that I' d feel comfy hunting with, I' d have to nearly double the amount of time spent practicing. No thanx. for me that would be a chore, and unfeasible unless I could magically whisk all my other responsibilities away. (boy , I wish! ).

I don' t seem to be killing any more deer these days with higher tech equipment than I did 12 or 15 years ago, either. I don' t buy into that argument. I' ll have you know that the two guys who ran the local trad archery shop kill 7 to 8 deer per year apiece with their equipment. I take one if the opportunity presents itself. I don' t think the increased success ratios have mattered for the reasons I' ve stated above. I think the real problem is too many hunters and not enugh land to accomodate them. Urban sprawl & the destruction of the farming lifestyle is a far greater enemy to hunting than a fiber-optic pin or a carbon arrow.

I will agree that for many hunters, how you take that animal is more important than actually taking that animal but that' s a standard applicable only to oneself, you cannot hold that as a general blanket standard to all (I' ll never gun hunt again for example, but I certainly do not begrudge gun-hunters or complain about them).

If it' s legal, you are having fun, and being respectful to the land and the game, I could care less if you' ve got a 25-06, a smokepole, a Hi-tech compound, or beautiful red elm and cocobolo longbow in your hands, you are welcome @ my campfire.

Rack-attack

Come on Arthur - What do I deserve?

What did I or guys like me do to the sport?

I think about bow hunting 24-7-365, just like you

I practice my but off all year - just like you.

I have never put my fancy smancy equipment over my countless hours spent in the woods and my knowledge and skill as a bow hunter. My new fangled solo cam, drop away, carbon arrowed mechanical spitting bow never put me over good deer. I get my deer just like you - hard work, dedication and an absolute love for this sport.

I shoot the equipment I do because I can - and I love to tinker with it and aggravate myself to all heck You know this new techno stuff isn’t all its cracked up to be. You say hunters don' t have the patience or work ethic to shoot the trad equip you do - Well maybe.......You trad guys don' t have the patients or work ethic to get this modern crap to work right

I have all the respect in the world for trad guys - more power to them - it isn' t easy, I know it.

And I agree with Jeff 100% - last thing we as bow hunters need is 2% success ratios - We will be kicked out of the picture before you can say 300 fps. Maybe other areas are different - but around here, the DEC, the car drivers, the farmers and the landscape owners would love to see a much higher success ratio than we have today - Just to many deer running around Suburbia U.S. today.

And new archers love the compound - talk about intimidating - hand a new be a recurve and let em shoot...LOL....DUCK!![]

Arthur I would hate to think I am the bad guy - damn - there is lots of me out there

If so we are doomed

Arthur P

R-a, we are doomed.

Nothing personal aimed at you in the above post. I wasn' t being snarkey with you, as Jeff put it, but with techies in general. Sorry if it came across that way. I' ve been told once too often in the past couple of weeks that I' m afraid of change, and been called a few things that were less than flattering by the techies that go out of their way to dis anyone that doesn' t agree with them. Sometimes steam comes shooting out my ears, if ya know what I mean.

Jeff, inline muzzleloaders are on my s#!+ list too. Same reasons! Let' s take a ' primitive' season then develop and use hotshot weapons the season was never intended for. Make it just as easy as shooting a 30-30, then claim it' s no different from an old sidelock musket and bash the NMLRA if they say anything about it.

The parallels between muzzleloading and archery seasons are remarkably similar.

JeffB

Arthur,

I don' t want to sidetrack the thread any further, so I' ll make this brief (well as brief as a verbose SOB such as myself can be )

1) I certainly hope I have not offended you in anyway as you mentioned in the past few weeks. While you and I don' t always see eye to eye, I have a great deal of respect for you as a member of this community. I don' t recall anything, but If I have said something that made you feel " ragged on" , I apologize.

2) Not a fan of in-lines either, personally. Suffice to say, we shall just have to agree to disagree on these matters as our viewpoints are different on " primitive weapon" seasons. Please know however, I understand your points and respect them. At one time, I harbored many of the same convictions as you!