If light & fast is the way to go, I wonder why experienced dangerous game hunters use slow and heavy arrows? Let' s face it, a whitetail deer doesn' t pose much resistance to penetration under proper shot selection scenarios. And compared to large African game, and elk doesn' t either.

Its funny to me how in the early-mid 90s it was all about fps, now for the last 5 years or so its Kinetic energy. I dont bother with it (all this math is hurtin muh haid).

Growing up in my brothers archery shop in the mid-late 80s, my standard reply to folks asking " speed vs weight" I would tell them... Whats easier to stop, a sports car doin 200mph or a freight train doin 100? That is as basic and easy to put as I can come up with. The easiest passthrus I have ever gotten were from my Martin takedown (recurve) shootin 2219s with RAZOR sharp Zwickey broadheads. I dont mean the arrow stuck thru the otherside or was layin on the ground behind the deer. I mean BURIED in the ground as in went thru the deer like hot butter and still had enough velocity to stick into the ground as much as 8" -10" . If I remember right my old Martin was once chronied at appx 190fps so obviously it wasnt speed. The downside was that the trajectory was about as bowed as the limbs on that Martin. 20 yds was a long shot from that bow. But BIG bonus to a gaping holed passthru was the bloodtrail that Ray Charles could follow.

In 97 after 4-5 other compounds since the 80s, I bought what was a " fast bow" for then (Hoyt Deviator Carbonite) and with superlight arrows (want to say they were 2312s but that maybe wrong) and 85 grain Thunderheads. The combo chronied 272 fps. I was good with one pin to 30 yds and could hit like lightning to 40 easy. Imagine my frustration (and outright furiosity) when later that season while on a hunt in MO I hit a 140class 9 pointer DEAD in the shoulder blade at under 10 yds. The arrow didnt go in enough to even bury the broadhead. Basically a fleshwound and I watched the arrow popout (unharmed) 20yds away as he ran by a tree that knocked the arrow out. No doubt in my mind that had I had either my old Martin or a heavy arrow/head setup in the Hoyt that despite the bad shot placement it would' ve at least broke the shoulder and reached at one lung. I was thru with " speed" until this season.

This year I need 40-45yd ability (will be filming from a Double Bull around foodplots) so I switched the Hoyt to 55/75 Gold Tips with 100gn Rocket Aeros (Bacon Cutters) and it chronied 282 fps and should hit 1 pin to at least 30yds. Despite the " KE" and anyother paper forumulas or sliderule mathematics, I know that I will have to pick my shots and dont really expect full passthrus outside of 20yds.

I just cant wait until the day that I can fire 600+grainers at 400fps lol!!!
RA

Just remember the guys against heavy arrows just can`t judge yardage. I love my 2219s .

Isn' t it great physics is in everything. Math too!! Mayber after a few more years and I become a full blown engineer i can figure out a less complicated way to kill a deer. one that we won' t have to argue over which way is better. oh yeah there is one. a GUN. But, thats why I love bowhunting, the challenge and preperation that go into it. I cant just go blast away at the deer and kill it.

well speed or weight: they both have there advantages. if your out hunting where you need to make a long shot like hunting antalope you would like a faster arrow. but if your just hunting something close or out to 30-40yrds weight is good too. eather way is good. its a personal preference on witch on a person chooses

Art, you Do realize that in your water test your gonna need a VERY long tank. Arrows being very aerodynamic (And hydrodynamic) will go though water much better than a bullet that turns into a mushroom in impact.

Get that sports car up to the same KE as the freight train....and you ain' t gonna stop either on of them!!!

experianced dangerous game hunters don' t go for slow and heavy...they go for heavy and whatever speed you can put behind them..and hit accurately.
Can someone tell me how fast is TOO fast to kill game?

Once we get to that nice 600gn arrow at 400 fps...much of this won' t matter....if it does at all even today!

A SHARP head put in the right area can/WILL kill deer dead...very cleanly. Within reason, it doesn' t really matter how heavy or fast it' s going. Arrow bounces off of a shoulder blade? don' t hit the shoulder blade!!! That' s a tough challenge for ANY set up...no matter how fast or slow! A buddy of mine who ALWAYS shot heavy/slow (recurve with Zwickey heads) told me the SAME story about HIS arrow bouncing off....and how he WISHED he had his Mathews THAT day!!! (He just won it...doesn' t shoot the recurve much any more....personal choice)

Shoot what you will...if it works for you...GREAT!!! I' m just saying that there is MORE to penetration than momentum.

Mahly, I' ve often thought about using the deep end of my pool, but am not convinced 8' is enough water

Art, assuming as Mahly said the arrows tested were of the same diameter, one light and one heavy, producing the same ke figures, even if the target material was designed (somewhat) to stop arrows, wouldn' t you expect the test to have some merit? I' ve been thinking about it, and can' t come up with a good reason why it wouldn' t...

Rangeball, IF the arrows were of the same diameter, IF they were the same materials, IF the spine was identical, IF they were shot from the same bow, IF that bow was mounted in a Hooter Shooter then shot into a block of foam and IF you shot each arrow at least a thousand times to create a data base for all out statistical analysis, you' d certainly be able to prove beyond a shadow of doubt whether light and fast vs slow and heavy penetrates best in that block of foam.

But deer still ain' t made of foam except the ones on the 3D range. That' s where fps that RedAllison spoke of got started, guys who hunted rubber deer. Now they think they' re rubber deer rigs work just as well on real deer. It all started out as simply a GAME for people to shoot with their HUNTING rigs. Then it turned into an all out arms race for speed (because the guys that aren' t worth a S#!+ at judging yardage found out they could score better with a flat shooting setup.

Now 3D is backfilling, like a sewer backwash, into the woods and HUNTING is something people want to do with their TARGET rigs. And so, they' re throwing all these ' tests' and mathematical formulae around trying to prove they' re not totally unethical.

Try enough Mahly. On the other hand, get the sports car going fast enough to equal the train' s MOMENTUM and see what you get. Of course, you might run into Einstein' s Theory of Relativity before you can get the car going that fast.

You' re very correct about the 600 gn arrow at 400 fps. But there' s going those that are a step beyond the edge of lunacy that' s going to be using those bows to shoot 350 gn arrows at 525 fps. Frankly, it' s going to be the end of bowhunting when we get to that point.

I know how much most of you guys absolutely HATE introducing any form of philosophy into a discussion, but I think some words are appropriate:

" Our tools for the pursuit of wildlife improve faster than we do. Gadgets fill the pockets. They dangle from the neck and belt. The overflow fills the auto-trunk and also the trailer."

" Sportsmanship is a voluntary limitation on the use of these armaments. It is aimed to augment the role of skill and shrink the role of gadgets in the pursuit of wild things."

" Voluntary adherence to an ethical code elevates the self respect of the sportsman. The voluntary disregard of the code degenerates and depraves him."

" It has not dawned on him that outdoor recreations are essentially primitive, atavistic; but their value is contrast value; that excessive mechanization destroys contrast by moving the factory into the woods or the marsh."

Excerpted quotes by Aldo Leopold, " Sand County Almanac"

I' ll let you draw your own conclusions about all that, but I think you all know how I feel about it.

I have tried one of the lighter carbon arrows (CX 200@7g/" ) total weight with 100g field tip @ 351g, I' ve also tried one of the heavier carbon arrows (Terminator Hunter@11g/" ) total weight with 100g field tip @ 453g. in my new Bow. The KE difference is less then 1# (62-63# range) and momentum is within 1/100' s however the heavier arrow is 33fps slower (249fps vs 282fps) and also the heavier arrow has alot more drop, that all being said I like the lighter arrow as I' m not gaining any KE or Momentum with the heavier arrow and with the lighter I gain 33fps and alot less drop...........The lighter arrow makes alittle more noise through quieter with leaches added. I have a new VFT 60#/28"
Anyone have any addition input on arrow selection/weight or any other considerations? etc.? Any advantages to heavier arrow? As stated above KE and Momentum are real close, heavier arrow is 33fps slower and drops more?????

Frankly, you' re undervaluing the momentum you get with the heavier arrow. There is a sizeable difference. Going by the strict forumula and fiddling around with all those decimal points is confusing. You can take arrow weight multiply it by speed and then divide by 1000 to get a pretty basic index number that probably illustrates it better.

Take your 351 gn arrow at 282 fps. It gives you 98.98. Your 453 gn arrow at 249 gives you 112.797. So, round it off to keep things simple, you' ve got 113 vs 99. That' s a tad over 12% more momentum you' re giving up for a 13% increase in arrow speed. I don' t know how far you intend to take a hunting shot, but the difference in trajectory within 30 yards is practically negligible. But, you' re playing on your nickle so make yourself happy.