Jeepnut

True, but I bet his bow is so quiet that the animal won' t even flinch in the 5 seconds that it takes his arrow to travel 20 yds.

ijimmy

Jeep ;either that or the deer is over it and started feeding again [8D] seriously though heaveyer arrows just work better for hunting especialy for short draw low pound shooters and , two blade cut on contacts penetrate better allso . Remember if you have to track an animal 2 holes are better that one or better than one thats got an arrow pluging it .

Arthur P

Actually, Frank, they do. However that' s only a problem for someone that is enslaved by the sights on their bow. Those of us that are free from artificial aiming devices don' t even notice it.


That' s an expansive version of exactly what I thought I said.

I don' t remember ever hearing anything about KE pertaining to archery at all until ICS carbons and overbuilt/overpriced bows. Overbuilt to keep them from blowing up in your face at 5 grains per pound.

trestand

Speed v Weight,Why can' t you have both?I know I do.......Mathews LX,30in.67lbs,Beaman Carbon-Hunters 380' s cut at 28.5,85gr Shockwaves,3in. Duravanes,413grs total weight....277fps,70lbs KE.Flat shooting,deadly,and accurate to 50yds.Whats not to like?...Bob

JoeMagee

Momentum = mass x velocity
arrow weight/7000 = weight in lbs
lbs/32.414 = Mass
:divide by 32.414 for gravity
Mass x Velocity = Momentum

580Grains/7000 = .082857
.082857/32.414 = .002556
.002556 x 182 = .46523 lb secs

There you go now have fun.

muzzyman88

Just my two cents. I have had complete passthroughs as well with an old bow, shooting heavy aluminum arrows. I know shoot a new bow with significantly lighters arrows and still get complete passthroughs. There was a thread here recently discussing how the newer bows are getting more efficient at transfering energy to the arrow instead of wasting it through the bow with a light arrow setup. This leads me to believe that you should be getting roughly the same KE out of a new bow-light arrow setup.

I do however agree that a little heavier arrow is a better bet for hunting. I try to fall in the middle weight, somewhere in the neighborhood of 380-400 grains. I get good speed, and great penetration. My last seven deer have been all passthroughs with this setup including a quartering shot that broke the front leg on exit.

Just my thoughts.

PABowhntr

Arthur,

I have no doubt that those of us who are not technologically impaired are capable of putting together some impressive groups through instinctive shooting. However, the amount of time needed to become affective in that method is very prohibitive to the average archer/bowhunter today. But for you retired folks.....



Sorry for being too long-winded on my reiteration of your explanation. Sometimes I just need to put it into my own words to understand the concept thoroughly.

So, basically, the craze for speed is to blame for many of current archery shortcomings....

Mahly13

Alright. For the sake of keeping this debate SOMEWHAT scientific (pass through count on deer is NOT scientific proof...WAY too many variables head type, sharpness, shot location, size of deer, ribs hit etc)
Here is a test done showing arrow penetration in 2 consistant forms of media. Though the media is NOT consistant with deer... the test is to simply show the results of KE vs. speed. Anyone wanting to argue momentum, can post the momentum figures for each arrow (I dare ya )

Look at the following chart:



Arrow #1 while having slightly LESS KE (and a LOT less momentum) actually went SLIGHTLY farther than arrow#2 in both cases.

ALL this test measures is the difference between a lighter faster arrow, and a heavier/slower one, with almost identical KE.

You MAY find a test elswhere that says differently, but this test DOES seem to change only one variable at a time (different wieght arrows with the same KE...OK maybe to things speed and momentum' s impact on penetration)

This test also is limited to the 2 arrows going at 53 KE whether or not higher or lower KE numbers are equally effected remains to be posted. but one thing IS clear. You can NOT accuratly say " momentum is the most important thing in penetration" Momentum was up and down in this test...and didn' t make a noticable differance at all.

BTW....for those interested arrow #1 has about .434lb-sec momentum, and arrow #2 has .534lb-sec momentum which is about 23% more momentum...for ZERO gain.

Arthur P

Frank, just wondering... When was the last time you shot a compound without sights for any length of time? Like a month or two?

Mahly, when they start making deer out of ethafoam and styrofoam, that' s when I' ll start paying attention to these stupid ' tests' that use that stuff as a test medium. As long as critters are made from hide, meat, fat, bones and organs, I' ll stay with my big ol' arrows.

How many guys do you see shooting light carbon arrows for bowfishing? Not too many? Most are using those 1,000 grain solid fiberglass jobs to penetrate deep in the water. Since animal flesh is about 70% water....

Mahly13

Gonna start useing carp tips and fiberglass arrows to get better pass throughs?
Bow fishing is a bit different...you are now fighting gravity as much as penetration. (Most arrows float)
Granted, deer are not made of foam....but penetration is penetration. you can' t change 3-4 things in a test and hope to come up with solid answers.
The tests simply show, that in a constant media...momentum is not as effective at estimating penetration as KE is.
Now, if you can get me 20-30 identical twin deer...that have all eaten the same, and are in every way imaginable identical...and we can put arrows in the exact same spot on each one when they are all holding the same amount of air in their lungs...and the last one isn' t too freaked out after seeing the first 19-29 of his brothers getting shot...THEN we can test it YOUR way...until then we are limited to synthetic matterial that is easy to make consistant to do scientific tests.