RE: The tuning trilogy!
 

For me personally I grade all-carbons as follows

Low End: Goldtip Hunters, PSE Dominators, Carbon Express Terminators (as well as some of the other CX shafting that Bass Pro & Cabelas put their names on), Beman ICS Ventures/Hawks, Carbon Impact Fat Shaft “Blue”, etc.

Mid Grade: Standard Carbon Express, Carbon Express Terminator Selects, Goldtip XT, Beman ICSH, Easton Buckeye/Epic/Evolution/Redline, PSE Extreme, CI Fat Shaft Yellow & Orange. Carbon Tech’s .005 series (whitetail, rhino, cheetah, etc)

High Grade: CX 3D Select, Goldtip 3D Pro, CI Fat Shaft Green & Gold, PSE Pro-force or whatever they call them…Carbon Tech XP series

Now some, like the mid grade Beman/Easton shafts I mentioned nearly push into the High grade category because they are very consistent for spine & weight in general. However, the straightness tolerances can still get out of whack in a dozen: A few may be in the .002 to .003 straightness range, and some others in the dozen might go as far as .010: most fall around the .004 range when cutting from both ends, but bare shafts can have some serious run-out.

And many times, the mid grade shafts really should be in a dozen of the low end shafts. I’ve had many ICSH, Standard CX and Goldtip XT’s that were pitiful. And I’ve had some of the high grades drop to the mid-grade specs too (though this has improved across the board it seems). That’s the whole problem really…it’s not the tolerances that bugs me so much, it’s that they are advertised as X, and you pay more money for X, but you still aren’t getting X, you are getting lower end Z. If someone is paying good money for a .400 spine class shaft that is supposed to be fairly straight (.003), and have a weight tolerance of +/- 3 grains, then that’s what they should get. Not a dozen that are spined from .410 to .385, have a10 to 15 grain weight variance, and run-out to .010+. And that’s more common than you think. While every manufacturer seems to have stepped up the QC for the Mid and high grade stuff, the low end shafts are often still this poor.

As has been stated though, straightness is not the most important factor. Spine consistency and weight is, not only from shaft to shaft, but from dozen to dozen, and that’s where A/C/C cannot be beat. I am absolutely fine w/ a .003 to .004 (per inch)/ TIR .006 to .008 shaft that is extremely consistent in weight and spine for hunting purposes. I don’t need .001. Problems is generally that you have to buy those high straightness grades to get the weight and spine consistency. If anyone has any of the old Easton catalogs/ tech manuals and/or archery almanac, for years they recommended AT LEAST a .004 per “ /.008 TIR reading for acceptable accuracy w/ hunting shafts tipped w/ broadheads. Since they began producing the Beman & other Easton IC carbons, that recommendation has disappeared from the catalog! .Hmmm..interesting to say the least. Beman doesn’t even advertise straightness tolerances. However if you call/fax them and are polite they will give you a general rundown (well, they did for me at least).

I do feel your pain though, A/C/C’s are VERY expensive…and getting more expensive every year, sadly. Due to recent serious financial constraints I am using a mid-grade all carbon (the Goldtip XT’s) for hunting this season, as I just cannot shell out the bucks for ACC’s (or anything else for that matter, I have my friend Matt/PA to thank for the Goldtips!). Once the financial difficulties pass (should be soon, by years end) I’ll be back to ACC’s, though I have been really impressed w/ Goldtips quality improvements, and they will be my first choice should my finances not improve as I expect them to (knocking Beman ICSH out of my # 1 mid-grade/price spot). These XT’s are very straight , and fairly well matched for weight. After tweaking the nocks (as I mentioned in my earlier post), I’ve been able to get some very good groups out to 40 yards with them, showing that spine match is pretty good too. There is hope yet, for all carbons! ! :D

RE: The tuning trilogy!
 

Art-

I hear ya, and you do have a point in that you do have the option to diddle should you want to. We all should have the option to diddle if we so choose.:D[&:];)

JeffB-

Great post and I' m pretty much in agreement with that one also, tho I do tend to swap a few of the shafts around from where you have them in order and how I feel they are as far as quality/tolerances are concerned.

Busy day, (I' m selling too many .006 arrows![&:]:D) More later as time permits. Good shooting,
Pinwheel 12

RE: The tuning trilogy!
 

Jeff,

I guess I should feel reasonably good about shooting the ICSHs then right?:)

Nice post. I would agree.

Just out of curiousity' s sake...where would you put the " skinny" carbons into that mix?

RE: The tuning trilogy!
 

Just a point to clarify, although it' s probably not important :)

My above post was actually a response to the last post on page 4. I completely missed page 5, so I didn' t even know Jeff referenced my story until just now. Freaky...

And true. With ACCs, I know I' m good from arrow to arrow.

RE: The tuning trilogy!
 

Straightarrow: Are you looking at how to select the proper spine or how to measure spine???

Jeff: I totally agree with you about the Gold Tips. They have greatly improved their Hunter XT arrows over what they offered a year or two ago. The Hunters, now that' s another story. Then again, most in that ' low end' category leave a lot to be desired.

This thread started as Tune the Bow --- Tune the ARROW --- Tune the ARCHER. Given the three, the average archer is the hardest to control. If we (my PRO Shop) do our best to control the other two, we are doing what the archer pays us to do and have succeeded in controlling two of the three factors in the ' system' . If the archer wants us to ' Tune the ARCHER' , we will gladly oblige.

What we found was that we were wasting a lot of time tuning bows because customers were bringing us faulty arrows (most of which were bought elsewhere). Now, before we attempt to tune any bow, we check the arrow for straightness. If the spine is wrong, it will show in the tuning attempts. :)

RE: The tuning trilogy!
 

I guess I have been fairly lucky with the carbons. I think it was about five years ago I bought some Gold tips. When I tested them on a spin tester I was shocked how bad they were. Needless to say I haven' t bought any since.

I used the Nitros for a while and I guess I really can' t complain about those. My source for those dried up so I quite using them.

I have shot the carbon express arrows for the last 3 or 4 years. I bought two dozen CX 400 shafts last summer and put them together for me and my son. Using the inserts that came with the shafts, factory nocks, and weight tubes, I dipped the last 10 inches of the shaft after cutting them to 29 inches.

After weeding out a couple that didn' t spin true and giving my son some, I still have a dozen left for my fall elk trip.

I put on a 125 grain broadhead and weighed each shaft. The following are the results:

3 shafts weighed 498 grains
1 shaft weighed 502 grains
1 shaft weighed 503 grains
2 shafts weighed 504 grains
1 shaft weighed 505 grains
2 shafts weighed 506 grains
2 shafts weighed 507 grains

As mentioned all of these shafts spin true and while I haven' t finished shooting each shaft out of this dozen (it has been windy) the ones I have shot provide excellent accuracy out of my rig.

Obviously there is a nine grain differential from top to bottom. I don' t shoot well enough to be able to tell the difference of nine grains, few do. Take out the three lightest shafts and there is only a five grain difference.

RE: The tuning trilogy!
 

AE: How much of that weight difference is B head related and how much is shaft? Have you weighed each head and shaft seperate? Then match say a light head with a heavy shaft, or the opposite to try to minimize the varience.

RE: The tuning trilogy!
 

In this case the answer is Zero. I put the same head on each shaft when I weighed them. So yes, the varience could be more or less depending on me matching broadhead weight to shaft weight. :)

RE: The tuning trilogy!
 

And did you weigh your dipping paint :) ??? 5 grains ain' t much.

RE: The tuning trilogy!
 

Hey Arthur:

I think you have exactly the right concept for those pesky crooked carbons. I wouldn' t want to use a campfire or a blowtorch, but controlled heat, controlled straightening force, followed by a controlled cool down should do the trick. If the manufacturers or engineers could come up with something based on the same concept as staightening wooden arrows, crooked carbons could be straightened, and out of spec carbons could be reduced or eliminated without discarding all of those poor quality shafts. Don' t know what they could do about spine inconsistency though.:(

Pinwheel: I believe I got some of those discarded arrows off ebay. I had 6 Blackhawk Vapors, and 2 of them would not group with the rest no matter what. I thought that they were just poor quality arrows, but maybe the seller did just what you described. BTW, I have been buying from the local pro shop ever since this obvious mistake was made.;)