Lesson Learned.....
 

It's only taken me about 20 years to do so, but here's the abbreviated version (and I will refrain from naming names)

I have Bow X- it's a phenomenally smooth drawing and incredibly accurate bow. I really have to screw up something pretty bad to get this bow to throw an arrow way off the mark. One of those bows you can pick up and everything feels right and you don't have to "work" to shoot well. In essence- the bow we ALL want to have in our arsenal.

The problem starts when I get a little "bored" with bow X. Despite it's incredible shootablity-it's not all that exciting- its pretty quick, but not blazing fast like some bows. Its quiet, but not incredibly so. It's pretty tame to shoot, but not the tamest. Not to mention, I think it's just about the ugliest bow I've owned in many years. Bad lines, bad camo, just fuggly.

So, I decide to try out Bow Y- I've had many bows from them before and liked several of them quite a bit. Bow Y is often described by marketing as well as owners as being super quick, super shootable, and tame. I've shot it at the shop, and it is very pleasant shooting-very quiet, low recoil, fast. So I order it in my fave color combo, order custom harness, etc. The bow is going to look BadA! and of course it's going to shoot well. I'm totally psyched and excited to get the bow.

Bow Y arrives- it is indeed beautiful, especially once I get the custom color harness on it. It def looks BadA.

First problem- it won't fit in my existing bow-case (this was a harbinger of things to come- I should have known right off the bat)

I knew the draw lengths ran long on this model, so I compensated by going shorter than normal. It's nearly an inch long at AMO spec but still fits pretty well-I just shortened my loop a bit more than I would normally. But, yeesh- an inch? this is not 1995 folks.

Second problem- after shooting it a couple days, the draw cycle was really starting to wear on me. Feel-wise, Bow Y seems 7 or 8 pounds heavier than bow X, and really loads up on the back end regardless. It wasn't really noticable shooing the test bow for 20 arrows, but now putting arrows though it every other day? ugh...My rotator and lats are screaming.

Third "problem"- Extrapolating #s to compare ACTUAL MEASURED draw lengths, poundage and arrow weight and then blasting through the chronograph. Bow Y totally on spec, is actually a couple FPS slower than my beloved Bow X (which is a touch under spec as far as cam position goes) And bow Y is a hell of alot harder to draw and letdown to be a couple FPS slower. :s6:

Fourth Problem- Bow Y torques hard on drawback- the design is juts an absolute torque monster. And the letdown is pretty brutal.

The Last straw- Bow Y is about as far from "forgiving" a bow as I've shot this year. Oh sure- if I do everything exactly perfect form it wil stack arrow on top of arrow. I even broke a couple of nocks. But one little mistake and it will throw an arrow out left or right way too many inches for my taste. The bow is entirely too demanding. And that's indoors- with no wind-with a comfortable temperature-on level ground. Now what am I supposed to do sitting 15 feet up in a tree with bulky clothes on, freezing my butt off, with the adrenalin rush of a deer walking by my stand???

After giving the bow a fair shake, I'm ready to throw the dang thing in a dumpster. I rarely get that feeling with most bows. I may not care for something in a general or specifi sense, but I have not had too many bows that are so maddening to shoot (though I've had TWO like that this year!).

Now I'll be the first to admit- I'm no world Class Archer. And I'll also be the first to admit that bow Y probably is the best shooting most forgiving bow someone else has ever picked up- I know we are all different. But I've had it. Bow Y got stripped and put back in it's box- and will be for sale at some point. It's back to that old "boring ugly" bow X for me.

Now the ironic thing is that after stripping bow Y and putting it back in the box, I happened to see the catalog for the company that makes Bow X and laid it on my nightstand next to the bed. Later that evening after mentally beating myself up most of the day for being so stupid, I laid down, put the heating pad on my rotator, open up to the catalog page for my beloved bow X and right there in big print it says....


wait for it.....



" NEVER, EVER MESS WITH A GOOD THING"


:bash:

Some bows are just like that but I wonder how it would do for you if the draw length actually measured out to spec for you.

I thought that may sound confusing the way I typed it up T.

Actual draw lengths between the two bows are within an 1/8". It's just that I ordered bow Y shorter than I normally would (knowing it ran long) to ensure I got the same actual draw length as I normally shoot (and that bow X is)

Am I making sense? :biggrin:

EDIT- in other words- Bow X is a 28.5" cam that measures 28.75" draw length. Bow Y is a 28" cam that measures 28 & 7/8" draw length. I shortened my loop a touch on bow Y to comp for that 1/8". effective draw length/anchor point is the same.

Facing the same dilemma now. I had the most forgiving, pleasant shooting, accurate bow I ever had. A bowtech commander. I went and got a guardian. Its ok. But not near as forgiving with a 30" draw, hense not as accurate, draw cycle sucks compared to the commander, and not as quiet.

Only reason I sold the commander and got the guardian was I was thinking I better unload the commander now. It was an 07 and they had no resale and price was shooting down by the day. The guardian does. Sure the guardian is 10fps faster, but at a horrible draw cycle.

Jeff,
I had a Mountaineer years ago that turned out to be just that way with me, it felt great when I first tried it but after some serious shooting time it really sucked, I shot one deer with it but never had that confidence with it. I still have the turd hanging on my basement wall.:party0005: Your post title says it all.

i really think you should name names...i am curious. and think that it might help people in some decisions.

My advice- go find your Bow- X again! perceived value and actual value ( as you can see) are two entirely different things ;)

Heyya Gary!! good to see you post. Hope all is well.

As for the mountaineer- you still own it? :eek2:

But the thing is- we are all different- I know that what may be the nastiest POS ever designed as far as I'm concerned, just may the bow you never have shot better with. My point wasn't really about the two particular bows so much as it was about the last sentence in my initial post :)

On somewhat of a tangent- The thing I'm beginning to see clearly is that since I've switched to shooting lefty (eye dominance issue) there is indeed a "totally opposite" effect going on. It's like Superman and Bizarro Superman ;) What used to work/be comfy/be preferable for me shooting RH, now is the most godawful, worst feeling piece of equipment ever left handed. And not just bows and cams and draw cycles and grips. Even things such as the type of release aid, how a bow balances, etc-it's completely different. Likely because my form is so much better shooting lefty- I had lots of bad habits that were impossible to break shooting righty because I never had anyone to teach me good form in my formative years. Now shooting lefty, I am able to start all over again knowing what proper form is and using it.

Yup still own it, I actually bought some modules from somebody here on the forum and tried shooting it a few years ago but it's a beast, I'm actually still shooting my 04 Pat Dually but I'm always looking.

wow..sounds like you've gotten your money's worth out that Dually!

Which model Mountaineer is it? Used to sell the crap out those things back in the mid 90s.

Jeff,
I think its a Challenger, its been so long since I even looked at it I'm not sure. I sure have been happy with the Dually but its about time for something new, I really like the draw on the Carnivore 34 but I didn't get a chance to shoot it and the Bowtech guy close by switched to another brand so I have to do some traveling to shoot a new one of those. I did shoot a Firecat and that was pretty impressive. Oh so many choices,only time will tell.

Yup I remember the Challengers . I had one of the wheel bows (the 3D or whatever it was called) and one of the ultra-somethings..briefly. I was big into HCA at the time, and the Mountaineers just were not fast enough for me....hey!! sounds like nearly 20 years later I'm still struggling with the "not fast enough" thing ;)

Those Carnivores are some sick shooting bows. SUPA-smooth shooting...I really like that bow- barring the grip, which is too square feeling for me. Its no speed demon, but just a pleasant to shoot, smooth drawing hunting bow. Firecat is really nice too, though not nearly in the same class as the Carnivore for "smooth draw". But the cat has about 15-20 FPS on the Ross. I'd reccomend the Alien X if you like the firecat-it's quicker, quieter, has smoother transitions in the draw force curve, balances better, AND has laminated limbs without being all that much more expensive than the firecat. Both the Ross and the Alien are great $ values, IMO.

Jeff,
I was considering an Alien X but I'm more comfortable with something a bit longer in the ATA department, that's what drew me to the Carnivore, although the Firecat really didn't seem short, I may go shoot the Alien anyway before I buy just for sh*&s. Have you shot a Captain?

Gary

Well the actual ATA diff between the Cat and the Alien is about 1/2"- string angle may be a bit tighter on the Alien but it's not significant-I like a bit more A2A as well,33-35" is optimum for me, but between the 2 bows, IMO the Alien is clearly the superior design.

I have shot the Captain a fair bit- I have two issues with it-

1) I don't like the draw cycle on the 09 Center Pivot bows-period. Even the 08s/07s load up less at the back end. The SWAT & Air Raid have the nicest draw force curve out of the 09 BowTechs by far, and fall somewhere between the 09 CPs, and the Ross.

2) The sight window on the Captain is angled sharply downwards at the top which cuts out the effective length of it and because of my build and where I anchor, I need all the sight window I can get. It blocked the top half of my sight. Not an issue for many, but an issue for me.

That said, the thing shoots with even less recoil/noise/vibe than the Admiral I had. Really nice. I still prefer the Guardian however-smoother to draw at my draw length, and less inherent torque in the entire bow system-roller guard is more trouble than it is worth, IMO.

Bows
 

That is a really good post. I felt like I had to get a new bow after reading some posts and listening to the marketing hype. I tried a bunch of bows and found that most of the new bows felt very harsh to draw. I decided I liked how my 2007 Black Ice shot and felt. I'll be sticking with my Black Ice for a long time.

Anyone know what the going price isfor Alien X? I just got of the phone with the closest guy to me that deals them and he says 800 and they are backed up on orders. He actually tried to talk me into coming in and shooting a Elite GT500, opinions? I know you messed with one didn't you Jeff?

Gary- I *think* MSRP on the Alien is $699 (camo) but don't quote me on that.

The GT500 was a great shooter- Rev cams are probably the nicest/smoothest drawing slaved dual out there (don't want to use the "B" word discussing another brand's cam system :happy0157: ). Pretty quiet, fairly fast (but mine even 'supertuned" was about 10 FPS shy of what it should have been doing). Real nice bow overall, but they vary too much for my tastes- some will make speeds, and some won't-no matter what you do to it. If Bowtech could smooth out their top end bow Binaries to feel like the Rev cams, that would be something- and maybe get me back into a BowTech again.

Thanks Jeff,
This shop is really pushing the GT500 and thats just over the phone, plus he's an hr away, I'm not sure I even want to deal with somebody who wants to really push one brand on me.(of course its all about the $$$). That Carnivore just keeps drawing me back, I was telling MeanV the other night when I ordered strings from him how the Ross set a 70lbs felt like a heck of a lot less to draw. I can't even find an Alien to shoot, Wonder why ?:wink: :D

Ya know Jeff... Knowing you as well as I do I really don't believe the title of this thread...:)

Great thread, Jeff.
Good to see you here again at HuntingNet too ! :wave:

Agreed!
 

Gotta agree with Pat here, Jeff. The title might have been more believable if it said, "Lesson Learned, for now." Something to that effect.:s2:

You have to look on the bright side of this. You have a bow that is shooting very well for you and is forgiving and reliable. If you can stop worrying about what it looks like or how fast it is, you should be fine.:s2:

I seem to recall a thread earlier this year. Something like "If you could have just one bow for the next 5 years...":s2:

I know I know. You are both right. If there was ever a poster-child for "Archery Man Whore", I'd be it. It's an Addiction! A Sickness! I CANNOT HELP MYSELF!

On a serious note- If I had not received bow Y at such a huge discount (like 1/3 its value) I would never have bothered. I've been shooting Bow X for awhile and nothing else.

To make matters worse, I finally got all the parts I needed to get bow Z in shootable condition, and will be putting it back together today :eek:

You should shoot them all. All 3 are great bows- The Alien is a really nice bow, especially for the money- With the barnsdale limbs and whatnot, I'd be inclined to take it over the GT500 if the A2A were not in consideration.

But def the Carnivore is the smoothest/easiest draw. The bow at the shop came out of the box @ 78 pounds (70 lb limbs), and it was a pretty nice 78 pounds.

Thanks Sag! Likewise :happy0001: