JOE PA

Reading Jeff B.'s thread about the new bows he has shot, and comments on the draw cycle, I thought it was about time we started another one of these posts that used to get good discussions going, and take several pages of info. So here goes!

What do you prefer in a draw cycle? I know that you can get used to almost anything, and then it feels right to you, but what do you really prefer? I will try to get this started. Hope we can all have some fun with it.

I prefer a draw that loads up pretty quickly, rather than peaking later. I feel I am stronger in the beginning of the draw. I really like when a draw loads quickly, but the transition is smooth as the cam(s) start to roll. I would rather have a decent dwell at a lower draw weight than a quick peak at a higher weight to get the same performance. The draw can hold peak weight pretty long into the cycle, as long as there is no increase in draw wt. late in the draw. The transition between peak wt. and valley (letoff wt.) I like to be smooth too, and not sudden. I like a little bit of a valley, being mostly a hunter. A valley that is 3/4-1" long is plenty, but I dislike that "no valley" feel like I had with Martin Nitrous X cams or the Bowtech Patriot Dually. A good solid feeling wall is a great plus, but as long as I can feel a pretty good stop to the back of the valley, I'm OK with it.

I've had a lot of bows from round wheels to the Patriot Dually. I've had a lot of bows that were very close to what I really like. Never had one that felt perfect though. Pet peeve? Pretty much like Jeff B's. A hump at the end of the draw with a sudden drop into a short, 80% valley has me make 1, maybe 2 draws, and then it goes back on the rack.[:@]

What do you like?

JeffB

We are pretty much spot on Jeff- I like the early peak, and it can ride way back into the cycle as long as it doesn't load up and the drop into the valley is not terribly abrupt. The Hoyt AMs and Elite Gt500/Z28 were the bows that had that.

I REALLY REALLY liked the BT Freedom cam- didn't matter which bow (Liberty, Pro40, etc) and I think the Force multiplier (2003 model?) on the G3 was the smoothest of the fast singles from BT. It was a weird looking thing and added some mass weight to the bow, but it really smoothed out the back end drop off without losing any speed. The duallys were hit and miss for me-depended on the bow- liked them on the Pro 38/40 did not care as much for them on the Pat dually or BKs- too bouncy off the wall.

For Mathews, the Outback and Legacy cams were tops for me- Solid stops (especially the outback) smooth draws.

I've become accustomed to the super hard wall of a limb stop- BT spoiled me there on my 2001 MM- I cannot get along with anything else really-given a choice I'll go for that every single time over a similarily nice bow without (as I did with the GT500 vs the AM35)

Cougar Mag

I like a draw that loads 1/2way or maybe a little further, not at the end though. I like a little valley also because I hate a bow that wants to jerk your arm off if you want to let down. Also though its another subject, and though they are now common or dominant, I hate 80% letoff. Thats why when I bought my BT Patriot I bought it with a 1/2" short draw module installed...I can play around with the letoff AND still get my draw length correct with the BT draw stop. Not sure how that is affecting performance....I never chrony my bows.

MOhunter46

Maybe im the only one, but draw cycle dosent really matter to me. All i care about is having a solid wall with no signs of wanting to creep. Call me crazy, but thats how i feel.

MeanV2

I Agree!! The Draw is something you soon become used to. I mean a 70# bow is 70# and a 60# bow is 60# sure you may get it earlier and pull it longer with some bows, but it's still whatever the scale says.

I get a kick out of some of the comments about draw cycles. A lot of people are over bowed. They are used to just grazing peak weight in the draw cycle and when they actually have to pull that weight for a few more inches, it's like UGH!![8D]

A lot of Wussies!

Dan

muzzyman88

I sort of disagree with the statement "you get used it". Of course you can get accustomed to any draw cycle. However, 70lbs at the front of the draw cycle is very different than 70lbs toward the end of the cycle. At least in my experience.

Case in point. I can pull my Allegiance set at 70lbs with ease. However, the Captain I shot, set at 70lbs was noticably more difficult to get to full draw. The 05-08 binaries on the Allegiance loaded weight right at the front of the draw cycle, where you have the most strength. The newer bows, such as Captain feel as though it builds much later.

My personal preference is to have the draw cycle load sooner rather than later.

drockw

I like a bow with a good hard wall. Ive owned Bowtechs, and Hoyts, and have litterally shot all of the rest (finally shot a GT500today Jeff) and i can say that i dont really mind any draw. I think alot of that is b/c of what MeanV said, im not overbowed. The only time recently that i noticed a rough draw that truely affected me, was when i was shooting a new xforce gx treestand model at 80#'s. Its one of the bows we have at the shop i shoot for. I really noticed how bad the breakover was with it, b/c it was honestly too much for me. At 53-60 #'s, there isnt a draw cycle that is going to kill me, some may be easier/harder than others, but none too much. That is why i believe you can get used to a draw of any kind once you shoot it for a while.

I was very used to my 101st airborne and i honestly loved the wall and valley of the bow. It seemed perfect. When i switched to the hoyt, i had to make a conscious effort to hold tension on the bow or i would creep. I am used to it now and no longer do it at all!

I can say a draw that i found that was incredible recently was a Diamond IceMan. It was sooooo smooth. Its draw built well, and ended with no valley hardly (in a good way) It was just like it stopped, and that was it. It was one of the best draws ive ever felt.

Derek

OHbowhntr

Not very often I disagree with you Dan, but HERE, I have to. Granted, some of what is built into that draw cycle is what you're going to get out of it also, but some bows do have harsher draw cycles in comparison with others, even though their "PEAK" weights are the same.

For me personally I like a SOLID wall, and a nice little valley at the end. Neither of my main 2 bows have GREAT either, but they are paid for, and both shoot fairly well, so I'll deal with it, but I believe the nicest feeling draw on a bow I've shot would have to go to the Alphamax35 that I shot back around Thanksgiving. The draw just had everything I personally like, very smooth, with a nice little valley, and a SOLID as a rock wall. Granted, you're not gonna get and super speeds out of one, but I think it would be a lot nicer to draw on a cold chilly morning than about anything I've ever shot in equal "peak" weights.

m9a9g9i9c

I came from a 2006 tomkat and now I'm shooting a 2008 82nd airborne. I could go on and explain in some beautiful words how I feel the drawcycle on these bows but I won't, and not because my knowledge of the english language isn't up to it.
I got used to shooting the 82nd after "snookering" alot ( having the bow creep up and pull me out of the draw and back into the wall, the term was made up by my team members ) If I draw the tomkat now I find myself janking the bow to full draw which makes me think the drawcycle is smoother. But I still like the 82nd better with it's nice snap into the wall.

Frank
Belgium

JeffB

Don't be shy, tell us what ya thought- good or bad!


As to the general discussion- when draw weights get ridiculously low (compared to what one is used to) yes, I don't think the cam design means a whole lot. But calling someone a wuss or overbowed when they can handle a 70 pound bow (for example) from nearly everyone but cannot handle 70 on a few extreme cam designs is frankly ridiculous- the problem is the design of the cam, not the shooter. A bow that peaks late is poor ergonomic design. The way the muscles work in the body favors a bow that hits peak poundage early, not towards the end of the draw cycle.

That said, I've had a real hankering to take the "X-Force Challenge" as a purely fun experiment. The idea being- could I drop to a very low draw weight (for me- 50-52 pounds or so), and handle a lower brace and very aggressive cam design as accurately as I do the higher brace , nicer draw cams at 10-15 pounds higher draw weight? Performance levels would be fairly similar with my GT500. I've noticed this phenomenon before with low brace height, agressive speed bows I've shot at low peak weights (again compared to what I am/have been used to).


e.g.: When I was (MUCH) younger I had purchased a 50 pound peak HCA straight limb Excalibur for my then GF (now Ex-wife). She liked the bow much better than the GE she was shooting before, and eventually she stopped shooting just cos she didn't have time with work and other hobbies. I put on a set of 29" modules cranked it up to 50 lbs, and proceeded to shoot that Excalibur far far better than I was ever able to shoot the two 70 lb recurve limbed Excaliburs I owned (which I was completely comfortable drawing all day long even in cold weather). A bow that is ridiculously easy to control, and shoots with much less recoil/vibe/noise is an a real eye opener that allows you to precisely work on execution and form (and helps with TP as well). And that 50lb Excalibur was shooting at very high speeds- I was shooting ACC 3lxx somethings out of it around 5 grains per lb.

We'll see-I have to move some guitar related stuff to get the $ first.