I'mmmmmmm Baaaaaaaaacccckkkkk (EDIT- now with PICS!)
 

UPDATE- NOW WITH PICS



This will not be a bow report per-se- just some general observations.

I messed with alot of bows tonite-Mathews, Hoyt, PSE, Elite, Browning, Martin, BowTech, Diamond, Bear, and probably something I am forgetting.

Honestly, I was very disappointed with most of the bows on my "want to try" list when it came to the draw cycle. I was surprised (in a good way) by a few I did not think I'd like as much or had my doubts about.

Having not even drawn a bow in 3.5 to 4 years really puts a good perspective on what is and is not smooth. IMO, most of the "hot bows" out there are a far cry from the bows of just a few years ago- there seems to be another "ultimate speed" game being played by the industry, like there was in the late 90s. Trading comfort for a few more FPS. Yayyy... No thanks. There was nothing out there that drew like the old BT feeedom cam, or the Mathews Outback or Q2. Well, I say that- the Bear Truth bows were pretty smooth I guess. Some of the bows were ALOT stiffer than others, but that said, all of them shot pretty nice- little recoil or vibe, all were quiet as could be (most all had some kind of string supressor arm thing), and most seemed to be tossing an arrow out pretty quick to extremely quick.

Out of the "Hybrids/binary/C&1/2s", the Elite and Hoyt bows were by far the smoothest and easiest to draw pound for pound, draw length for draw length. As I said previous, the Bear was the only smooth drawing single though the Mathews Drenalin was decent as was the S2 (which apparently is the same thing as the old switchback?)

I don't want to pee off any PSE fans with my comments on the Xforce and X force SS cos I have little good to say other than they are built well- However the the Dream Season/Drury Brothers model was pretty cool. I'd def rock that bow in the woods.

The Bowtechs- gosh- They have really stepped up the past few years in the the fit and finish- The machining now is really absolute on par with ANYONE- gorgeous well machined risers and cams. The In-velvet is very cool. But I gotta be completely honest and say I thought the draw force curve was horrible on the 2009s (admiral and captain) as well as 2008s (commander and general). They felt 8 or 10 pounds heavier apples to Hoyt and Elite and they loaded up at the back end of the draw. The Diamond Iceman didn't have the back end load up, but was also stiff as heck from start to finish. The Marquis was pretty nice but it was last years model with the string suppressor thing on the roller guard- which I did not like at all- looked like an accident waiting to happen.

On a positive note- every single one of the BTs shot with no vibe, no recoil, and almost no noise. The Valley was incredible- nice solid hole, super comfy but not torquey. I WANTED to buy one cos once it was back and you pulled the trigger it was just freaking brilliant- but the draw force curves just killed it for me. :(

Martin- meh...Martin, not much to say- Built extremely well as always, decent draw, wishy washy valley (single cam design, not sure of name) still vibey/shocky with that loud "plock" sound (even limbsavered and string supressored- gotta get rid of those half round steel pivots/limb pocket system they use if they want to ever improve on that)

Elite Z28/GT500 and the Hoyt AlphaMax 35/32 were definitely the stars of the evening. Couldn't make a legitimate complaint about any of them. They drew the smoothest, neither cam system had the back end load up, all had nice comfy valleys (Z28 was a tad narrower), all were very quiet and had little vibe or recoil . The Elite's had a much harder wall (limb stop) which I prefer and ultimately that was the decision maker for me- I came home with the Elite GT500- 28.5" draw, peaks @ 63 pounds. No I did not chrono it.

Here are some pics (The brass nock will be removed)








And a couple of the cabin we stayed in the Adirondacks over the New Year holiday- Lake Clear- about 20 min from Lake Placid. Lady who owns it is a world-calss chef, and I had home-made Venison sauage and a Venison/Beef Tenderloin Stroganoff that was absolutely incredible. My GF, who is one of those beyond picky eaters, has major issues with food texture, and who swore she would never EVER try Deer meat finally caved and absolutely loved it.

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Congrats Jeff,I am waiting for the bow report.;)

I really like the smooth draw of the Elite as well but where you like the hard wall,that was where I was worried with it.I prefer the feel of the Hoyt wall much better,just as well because I could get a staff bow through my shop with the Hoyt and he doesn't carry Elite so it was a no brainer for me.

I agree with you on the binaries,atleast the ones I have pulled.I haven't tried the 09's.

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Well I'll try and get some pics up at least tomorrow

I also went back on what I said regarding the QAD rest in that other thread. Shop owner convinced me the early issues had been solved and the new "HD" (?) model was incredible- they sold 507 of them this past year and gave me his personal guarantee (meaning he will put something else on for me if I dont end up liking it). I just didn't like the limb driver with all that extra cabling. We'll see.

Also outfitted it with a Cobra Sidewinder plus or deluxe or something 3 pin sight, a "blue" G5 peep (neat! I used a fletcher forever, this G5 is nice!) and a limbsaver stabilizer (the one with the metal mount and damper, and then like 3" S coil or whatever). Frankly the bow didn't really need it vibe wise-and it didn't do much in that regard, but it did help it balance a bit better though. Amazing how quiet and recoil/vibe free the GT500 is considering the horsepower behind it. No silencers other than the string suppressor thing.

Unfortunately the shop no longer carries Carbon Tech as they had major supply issues with them- so for now I just picked up a half dozen Beman ICS Hunters fletched with Blazers- Once I get to fletching again, and get my shooting back in the groove I will upgrade. The only other cheap options were the Carbon Express Rebels (?) and some other cheap CX shaft which the guys were pretty quick to tell me to not waste my money on.

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Just curious, why did the extra "cabling" worry you?

Derek

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The long cable on the LD concerns me as well,I can see me getting it caught pulling it up in stand and my rest being off and costing me a deer.I seem to get my bow caught alot when pulling it up a tree.:eek: Might have something to do with the kinds of trees I like to hunt out of.

BUT,I do think it is an excellent rest.

The G5 peep is made out of magnesium,not aluminum.That is why it is lighter.

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As it is, I hate the fact that any drop away has a cable- As TFOX mentioned, it's one more thing to get snagged on in the woods/while hunting, and with the LD there is far more exposed cable. (basically half the bow's length) I'm sure the LD works fantastic, and it seems solidly built, but Murphy's Law tends to be a regular visitor to me when it comes to hunting and archery equipment.

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Jeff, did you happen to shoot any of the NON center pivot Bowtechs? The reason I say this is because I too had a similar experience with the draw cycle on the Captain.

Side by side with my Allegiance with smooth mods, the Captain definitely was more difficult for me to draw. What I'm not sure aboutiswhether that has to do with cam design more than the limb flex on the center pivots.

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They had a couple- one I believe was an Allegiance, the other an Equalizer or something? Leftovers from years past? I don't know. I did not pull them off the rack. Next time I go up there I will give 'em a draw and see what I think

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Jeff,

Though we have been emailing a bit lately I want to say "welcome back" to the forums. I have been absent quite a bit for the last year or so but now that you are back.....

Ya know, I read through your entire post and then kind of skimmed the last paragraph and totally missed where you said you decided on an Elite. I had to go back and re-read after seeing the subsequent comments.

(Yeah, I know...I am slow at times).

Congratulations on the new bow. Admittedly, I have never tried any of the Elites and don't know of anyone in my immediate area that carries them. I will have to do a little diggin' and see if I can find someone because you have my interest piqued.

I do wish you would have had the chance to try the Black Ice and the Carvnivore 31 or 34. If a smooth draw cycle (along with all the other "goodies") is your cup of tea then these two would have really appealed to you. I am not giving up my Carnivore 31 for anything. That is is one wonderful to draw and shoot bow. If it is, in large part, the result of the Crank then I would love to seeif it could be incorporatedfor the Binary or Single cam lines as well.

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Thanks Frank- really appreciate it, and nice to be back. I cannot believe how "dead" this place has been the past week or ten days I've been here[:'(]


Thanks and I would have loved to try even more bows, but I'm more than OK with what I picked out- very impressive As I stated in our emails, my only concern and "bias" was going to be price, and due to some good fortune and a good friend in the shop owner that never came to be an issue either. I simply went in basically "blind" and went with what shot/felt good for me, regardless of the name on the limbs, advertising/marketing, forum drama queens or "my weiner is bigger than yours" threads.For me- Elite came out on top, with the Alphamax 35 just a hair behind. The Z28/AM32 were pretty even as well. I wasn't enamored of anything else enough to lay down the cash save perhaps the Dream Season from PSE.

I would liked to have tried the Ross as well, as the original CR337 I had was a magnificent bow, but for whatever reason the shop did not have any (nor did I think to ask if they were getting any).

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You're Baaaaaacccckkk!, and that is great news, both that you are livening up the Tech forum, and that you are personally back into this sport again. Maybe some more of the "regulars" from Huntingnet circa 2004-5 will return as well. Good to see Frank posting again. Maybe Matt/PA and 500fps will join in again too.

Thanks for such a wonderful description of a bunch of bows I can't afford! (2 sons going off to college next year). Enjoy that GT 500.:D

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Thank You Kindly Sir!

I can say this much, as I know from experience- being on the staff of a bow company, and posting/trying to help customers/ in the various online forums can get pretty overwhelming and , well frankly, NOT FUN after awhile. It really starts to feel like work dealing with all the drama queens who post all kinds of rumors as legit and know absolutely nothing about the actual truth (I don't mean that re: here- this place was great, I mean places like AT, etc).

The archery industry is tough business- on all sides- manufacturer/distributors/dealers and for the consumer. The internet has made it that much worse with getting hundreds of thousands of overly opinionated anonymous jerks together in one place- ther eis little to no accountabilty for a big mouth online, and the "hard line brand fanatics" LOVE to take pot shots any chance they get. As a staffer or employee You have to learn to distance yourself from the rampant negativity or you'll freaking go nuts

Did you see the flame war over on AT about Dave Watson's draw length?- gotta give the guy credit-Dave signed up for AT, explained himself, and took it all in good stride- Sad thing is, there should have been NO reason for him to feel the need to do that. It's the obnoxious anonymous jerks I was talking about that start all the problems.

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I agree, especially about AT. It is usually pretty easy to see who has an agenda there. Some are just better spoken when they bash. In truth, there are almost no "bad" bows out there, just some that fit the shooter's preferences better than others.

But... perhaps now that you and some others are baaaaccckkk, this place will not be so dead that the temptation of more than a few posts a day on AT can be ignored.

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the bow looks nice, and the other pics are beautiful! I wish we would get that kind of snow here occasionally, or at least every other year[&:]

Ive been wanting to shoot a GT500 and all of the elites really for a while but no one around here carries them. Ive shot a synergy (i believe) but thats it. With their new ownership or whatever, hopefully they will become more available.

Derek

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Jeff, awesome bow. I looked at that bow and it is one mean machine. Very close specs to my Allegiance but faster somehow.

Let us know how it shoots once you get a chance.

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Thanks folks. I shot it a bit last night-close up- 10 yards. I put about 25 or 30 arrows through it. It put the arrow where I put the pin- too bad the pin wasn't always in the right place (I guess nothing has changed in the past few years, that's a good sign, right? )

I'm heading up to the shop again tomorrow morning to put some arrows through it and get it sighted in at 20 yards. I'm DYING to put it through the chrono even though I'm not concerned about the speed- I know the thing is smoking fast.

Anyone wanna take a guess? spec card says it should shoot between 314 and 324 FPS at 62.4 pounds with a 300 grain arrow at 28.5" . I've got that G5 peep and a loop on the string (the brass nock comes off tomorrow), and my ICS's are around 380 grains. I'm gonna guess around 285-290 FPS.

The Adirondacks are great. Beautiful area- though since I've moved up to New England I'd have to say Maine is probably my fave place. You've got the wonderful & unique ocean/coast and then the totally remote wilds. Very cool!

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293.5 fps

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Sounds good- hope you are right.


FWIW- I just realized some of you may have thought my thread title was referring to ME being back on the forum- It wasn;t- rather that I had posted I was going to the shop in that other thread to get a bow, and now I was back from the shop.

I'm not *that* flipping egotistical

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Well I think you pretty much nailed my feelings on many of the internet archery forums in recent years. My participation in many of them has dropped like a brick because of it. I have a great passion for the sport and the gear but dealing with the type of folks Jeff is making reference to gets old really fast. I know for a fact that it is the reason many of the old regulars here don't post anymore. Not necessarily this site but archery forums in general.

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Jeff and Frank:

I came to love this forum when you guys were both posting your excellent bow reviews. Really miss them. I can appreciate what you are saying though. I remember the last one I saw of Frank's where he reviewed the General, Marquis, Rock, and Black Ice, I think. Really well done and very informative. Of course some horse's butt on AT had to say something like "can't be very objective if you are Bowtech staff"

Anyway Jeff, back to the pro shop, back to the forum, you have me checking this place more than I have in months. Hope things continue to go well.

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I read Frank's "mega bow report" a week or so ago on his "blog" section or whatever (danged crazy new fangled intarwebz- I don't know all that stuff) left him a comment too, not sure if he ever saw it[&:]

I thought that particular report of Frank's was infinitely better than anything I ever attempted. But yep-being on staff automatically creates a lack of trust from many. Nature of the beast.

at any rate, Thanx JOE- the warm welcome back from everyone here has been awesome, I am truly thankful and flattered so many felt my contribution here was important to them in some way :)

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Yeah, Franks reports are top notch. Intelligent, well thought out and unbiased. He should be writing those things for magazines. I thoroughly miss him and many other guys who used to haunt these forums regularly.

Jeff, I'd say that bow should shoot 295ish. Just a guess though. My Alley at 65lbs, 28" draw and a 370 grain arrow is shooting 285-286. This was with an empty string and only a loop. The IBO on the GT500 is a bit higher than the Alley.

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We'll see. It wouldn't surprise me if the IBO is inflated a little- they always have been and always will be I suspect. If it does 280 with that arrow, I'll be fine. That 275-285 range always was optimal for me. I was talking with Tommy @ the shop about one of my first bow rigs. I shot it for a couple years- an old Golden Eagle Predator ( or maybe a Treestand Hawk? can't remember) with steel cables and round wheels/dacron string. It peaked at 76 pounds, had 60% effective letoff, a 4" overdraw on it, the draw was 29" and you could pull it to 30" easy. I shot 25.5" 2213s that weighed around 430 grains. It shot about 220 FPS if I pulled it back as far as I could We've come a long way baby! It was a deer killing machine though

FWIW- The draw length on the 3 Elites I handled were about 3/8" to 1/2" long as were the BT's. The Elite 28.5" matched up with the 29" Hoyt pretty much perfect- Hoyt's alaways been good about AMO draws. The PSE's were typical, about an inch long. Weird how everything kinda is "coming back" to me- both "muscle memory" and mental memory. Just been locked up in the dusty recesses of my pea-brain for a few years and I found the key underneath the mat by accident

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Yeah Hoyts draws seem to be quite a bit closer than anyone else. Iveowned two BT's recently and the draws were 29.5. when i got my alphamax, i had to bump the draw up to 30" b/c 29.5 felt too short.

BTW, ive heard the GT500 is a hair slow for its IBO (not bashing at all, just fillin ya in) soi would expect 285-290. I know my 101st airborne with a 400gr. arrow shot about 285, and its ibo was 340ish, so you should be right in that range. Plenty fast though regardless. When are you gonna bring the GT500 here to KY so I can shoot it:D

Derek

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Hey, I am still here...and still kickin'. I haven't been postin' much but that will change considering the time of year. :)

Jeff,

Thank you as that is extremely high praise coming from the king of bow reports. Truth be told I think I am falling behind the times though. I don't have an Easton Draw Force Mapper or a Hooter Shooter or a subscription to YouTube so I can upload videos of the bow being shot and hunted with. Pretty much all I can provide is an honest opinion of how I feel about each of the bows. I do think you made an interesting comment. Being a "staffer" does put a certain spin on things for some people. All I can say is that I sincerely hope folks don't take that too seriously for me. I call it like I see it and have never been asked to do otherwise.

Hmm, speaking of which, anybody want to see a Ross Carnivore 31, Bowtech Admiral and Diamond Ice Man comparison? Head to head...no holds barred?

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Well I went to the shop and shot for about an hour or so. I was a pretty miserable sight to watch for the first 20- 25 arrows, but then I started to get back in the groove a little (was canting the bow and rushing the shot at first). My last group was 2 of the ICS stacked neatly on top of one another on my point of aim and 2 more stacked the same about 3/4 of an inch directly above them. I learned (the hard way) to make it a point to quit shooting when you are happy- positive reinforcment is the best thing in the world. I knew if I kept shooting my groups would open up as I got tired and then I'd be miserable. So I packed up the bow and shot the bull with the guys, ran the bow through the chrono, checked out some other bows, helped a customer, etc.

I was a bit dissapointed in the speed at first, but after I got to thinking about some of my past setups (heavier peak weights with similar weight arrows), I realized everything was good.

GT500- 62.4 pounds- measured the the draw at 28.75" AMO-Brace height is 7 1/8", 80% letoff- ICS Hunter @ 386 grains (weighed) shot 279-280 FPS. Carbon Tech Cheetah @ 308 grains (weighed) shot 311-312 FPS. Loop and G5 peep on the string. Stat card said bow would shoot 300 grain arrow at 314-324 so it's on the money spec-wise though at the low end of the range.

To put that in perspective-

My Mathews Switchback shot a similar weight arrow (385-390) close to 29"AMO (28.5" cam) @ 291 with loop and peep. It was also on 72 pounds draw weight. 7" brace.

My 62-63 pound Extreme VFT with 29" module set to 65% letoff (was a little over 29"AMO set that way), loop, peep, shot 388-ish grain arrow (ACC 3-49), at 274-275. Brace height was 6.5"

So I doubt the GT500 will hit those top IBO speeds they claim (346 FPS), but it's still a quick bow, 330-335 would probably be more realistic. The best part is its QUIET and vibe/recoil free. Even @ 5 grains it was pretty quiet and I still didn't feel any vibe. Very pleasant to draw and very pleasant to shoot. Kevin seems to have finally pulled it all together- speeds of the old BK cams with a FAR better draw and noise/recoil/vibe levels of the better single cam designs.

Also, I did draw the Allegiance they had on the shelf- noticeably nicer draw than the Captain,Admiral, etc.

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Jeff:

Thanks for the update. Sounds like a great bow. Congrats!:D

Frank:

Register this as vote one for the Carnivore/Admiral/Iceman thing!:D

The more bows I hear about, the more the performance of the ones I have makes me feel pretty good. "Old", but still quite functional. Love hearing about the new ones though.

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Yup I'm up for more reviews.

I think the big thing is making speed more comfortable/forgiving-thats where *some* (i.e the truly successful) manufacturers/designers have made huge gains.

For whatever dumb reasons (pride???) there are a handful of companies who are still building bows like they did 10 years ago, and two of the big boys with big marketing budgets are into a speed at all costs pissing match it seems. I was talking to guy today who was absolutely floored at how much better these new bows feel at the shot compared to the top end bow he bought in 2000. ..we coined a saying- new stuff feels like an air rifle, hits like an bullet train

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Welcome back Jeff,what hasn't changed... you're still spicing up the forum. Great!!!
Seems we've lost quite a few guys over the years and some very notable guys as well. Having one return is a God send.

I've read about the Elite bows over the last two years but have never been fortunate to try any, your report now has me giddy. Indeed the new Bowtechs are great bows, certainly fast bows,but the draw cycles are extremely 'stiff' and I'm afraid of tearing all the nerves in my shoulder, in the blink of an eye.
I've shot the 82nd full time this last season, now I'm paying the price, pain and more pain. So much so I have not shot a bow within the last two weeks.

As for a good rest, take a look at the QAD-HD and the gen 3 whammy. They both do have draw cords, but the whammy cord attaches to the up cable and the rest triggers a few inches before brace after the shot.

Please keep the progress on the Elite coming...;)

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I will see what I can do gentleman. The issue is having some free time to work on the report. I know my impressions of two of the three. I am working on the Ice Man as we "speak".

I enjoyed doing last year's report for a variety of reasons which translated into one much longer than I am accustomed to writing. We will see how things go this year.

;)

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Heyya Keith- thanks for the kind words! :D

Ughhhh. Sorry to hear about the shoulder. Def take it easy and drop poundage once you feel up to shooting again. I told myself a few weeks ago there is no need to be killing myself with this anymore- despite the fact that I'm a pretty big guy and fairly stong. Drawing a bow should be easy, not testing your limits after a few shots. PLus a 60 pounder generates a hella lot of energy these days. So I got a 60 pounder. FWIW- I wouldn't say the Elite is "easy" to draw, just "easier" than the rest of the hybrids I shot (the AM35 was really close). Def smoother on the draw/easier to draw than the newer BTs I shot. I don't know about the 82nd- have not seen or drawn one before.

And speaking of an Elite update-while the speed is very respectable as is, after comparing some numbers with other GT500 owners I finally got some tech info about the cam timing at rest- the bow is quite a ways out- under-rotated. Methinks the chrono is gonna roll up some higher numbers next time (wanna put some more shots on the string and cables to settle 'em in first). Of course I'll re-measure draw length too.

Frank- take your time man, no worries :)

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Crikey Jeff, I didn't want to hear this.. I wouldn't say the Elite is "easy" to draw, just "easier" than the rest of the hybrids I shot.
My 82nd has been turned down to 57# (60# limbs on her) here she smokes 354 grains/27.5" arrows @ 295fps, the fastest 57# bow I've owned...but I've paid the price. NeverthelessI hear ya on backing it off, but I was reallyreluctant doing this during the season as then it meant resighting the pins, fiddling with the tuning a tad, maybe even shifting my peep and resquaring my d-loop. Honestly The bow was too much on than to go start trouble in the prime of the season. Towards the end I reverted to the Guardian...then it seemed forever for the arrow to hit the target.
The reality is, it takes poundage to generate real speed...obviously I can't have my cake and eat it too.

Good luck tuning your baby...would respectfullyappreciate to hear howshe settles in after the run in.

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.
Yeah poundage or draw length. Some guy over on the Elite Forum is shooting CT Rhinos in the 530 gr range at 300 FPS with a 32" draw on their 8" brace bow.

I ordered up a new custom string and cables from someone who was reccomended at AT and the Elite forums, so I'll just get the cams pretty close for now, and fine tune once I get the new stuff. sounds like I should pick up 5 or 6 FPS/ not a big deal, but.

When I think "easy" draw, I think Hoyt's original Command & Control Cams (from the early 90s), Hoyt's A(dvance) Cams from the late 90s, wheel type stuff. The Mathews MQ1, Q2, BT Freedom cam, or the king of smooth and easy: Oneida AeroForce.

None of the current cams I tried are "easy", IMO- they are all "hard cams"- The Hoyts & Elite's draw more like the Darton CPS, peaks early and smoothly, lets off smoothly( sometimes late in the draw cycle, but still smoothly). Most of the other bows I tried last week just built up continously-peaking late and then slamming abruptly over near the wall-it was very...machine like? Kinda like manually cocking a crossbow.

It was very disappointing to me. I suppose if I had not been absent for a few years I would have gradually gotten used to it - and this may annoy or upset some of my former colleagues (I apologize in advance if it does guys) but I was really shocked at the new BTs with CP risers. Truly disappointed. I did NOT expect that kind of draw AT ALL :(. Before I was with BT, and when I was on the staff, a common criticism people were voicing (including myself) was "the speed is awesome, but smooth the cams out and get the noise down and you guys will really take off" (along with more aesthetically appealing machine work)- and they got as little better each year and in 2004 they REALLY got it right. AFAIC, now they are back to square one with the draw cycles!!!?????[:'(] Makes no sense to me , but they are doing well so who am I to to question it? :eek: I

They aren't the only ones though- The newer Mathews were pretty dissapointing- far cry from the old Outback, legacy and Q series. The PSE X-force and Xforce SS? Talk about marketing hype-I was totally sucker-punched there

I've rambled enough.

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Jeff, I was wondering if you shot the Browning Illusion bow, and what you thought. I'm a Browning guy, but atmittedly I have not shot alot of other bows, and I was wondering what you thought of it compaired to some others.

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I quite agree with you regarding the smooth draw cycles on the Hoyt and Darton bows. Champion also used the CPS 1-1/2 cams.
I did not find the BT CP riser reference to the Guardian too bad, but the following year the General in my view was a step back.Then I switched to the 82nd, honestlythe speed wastruly amazing for my DL, but that's about it. I did not find the bow quiet, for the string supressor was mounted in a bad place. Stringvibrations even loosened parts of the rest and vane clearences was but a hair.
As for the draw cycles, I think I have said enough.
Hopefully we can go back to the times when the DC were 'easy' and not have to lock our jaws and shake our brain to get the darnstring back.

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I did shoot one of the Browning single cam bows- I don't remember the model name, sorry- It had a fairly high brace - I'd say around 7.5" or more, and it was pretty short and light. It was a little shocky and jumpy despite vibration damper stuff everywhere (even around the limb pocket), but was pretty quiet and had a nice valley. I think it was a low to mid priced bow, so I don't think it was really fair to compare to the higher end bows for feel/speed. I thought it was well put together-seemed tight. Brownings are made by PSE, so it's obviously a good quality bow. Were my budget less than it ended up being, I think it would have been a contender.

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I had one of these back in the day- Golden Eagle Evolution-1994 or so- 80% letoff energy wheels, and the 70 pounders were so easy I bought a 80 pounder (peaked at about 84 pounds, IIRC). At the shop I worked at these things FLEW off the shelves and they did at other shops in the area too. People loved the smooth/easy draw, the "new" Advantage Camo and it was (like most Golden Eagles) really quiet. It was one of if not THE best Golden Eagle designs ever,and basically their "last hurrah". It was pretty advanced for a cast riser bow with the cutouts, heavy reflex, light mass weight,and adjustable grip. The model with the hatchet cams, full synthetic harness/string and wood grip (Ultra Evolution) was a nice shooter too. They never had another big seller like this one.

RE: I'mmmmmmm Baaaaaaaaacccckkkkk
 

JeffB, thats what I like about you. You're honest and completely unbiased when it comes to giving your opinion on bows. We get too many people here voicing an opinion on a certain bow that are on staff for a company, or have another hidden agenda. Nothing wrong with liking what you like, but its nice to read from someone who couldn't care less about the brand of product and give an honest opinion.

Keep it up buddy!

RE: I'mmmmmmm Baaaaaaaaacccckkkkk
 

We all know about opinions [8D] (where's the stinky butt smiley?[:'(]) Some guys probably think I'm totally off my rocker (and I just may be) .

I would like to re-iterate that I was as totally enamored of the feel of BTs at the shot and the machining as I was totally dissapointed in the draw cycles. So it's not like I think they are horrid pieces of crap now :D Sometime in the past few years they went in a different direction than I like/would like/would have gone myself. Happens all the time with a great many things in life, not just archery- you adapt and move on to new things that work best for you

RE: I'mmmmmmm Baaaaaaaaacccckkkkk
 

Sounds like The Verado from Browning, I think that it has a 7 & 5/8 brace height. It's one of their lower end bows, at least as far as price goes. I wish someone else here shot the Illusion. I love it, but not knowing how many other bows shoot myself it's hard for me to know if it stacks up to some of these other bows. I guess it is not that important as long as I'm happy with it, but I sometimes wonder for the price if I should of went with a different bow.
If you ever shoot one you'll have to let me know what you think.