How are youth hunters?
 

With out getting into a mess like the KE/momentum question. How are youth hunters taking down big game such as elk when pulling less than 50#? I am shotting a Browning Rage1 with a draw wieght of 70# andarrows that weigh 321.85g with a speed of 242fps. Even if I change to a heavier arrow the most KE I can get with out zeroing or loosing to much fps is 41.86ft lbs, the heavier arrows slow the bow down to much. Oh by the way I have a 25" draw. Just wondering I plan on going elk hunting and according to a chart I found on the Gold Tip site to take an elk it requires 50ft lbs.

RE: How are youth hunters?
 

You want to increase arrow wieght. I wouldn't hesitate to shoot an elk with my 58lb recurve with 650gr arrow only shooting 170fps. I have blown thru deer before hitting shoulder bone. Shot placment is everything of course.

RE: How are youth hunters?
 

idk but i dont c how this would work either.

RE: How are youth hunters?
 

I am about the same config as you; 25" DL, 60# DW, 360 grn arrow, & about 240-260 fps. I took down elks before. You should have no problem taking down elks. It depends on what your regulation said. In WA, it only requires 40# DW,6+ grn/#, and minimum of 300 grn arrow. I believe the key is 6+ grn/#.

Only thing I want to point out is that you're shooting below 5 grn/#. Best to shoot at least 5 grn/# or more for hunting.

RE: How are youth hunters?
 

You guys are crazy going elk hunting with a 360gr arrow. Put a real hunters arrow on that badboy. 600gr, maybe 650gr.

RE: How are youth hunters?
 

Ditto hget an arrow thats got some THUMP to it.

RE: How are youth hunters?
 

It just proves that KE and super high speeds don't really matter for hunting.

RE: How are youth hunters?
 

Getting close and using good shot placement. Most of todays modern youth bows will get numbers close to an average traditional set up which has killed big game for centuries. A pass through is nice, but you can kill an animal without it. You get that arrow in the lungs and the animal will die. Tracking skills don't hurt any either;).

I agree with the others, light arrows are ok of you are shooting a really efficient set up, but once you start getting down in draw weight and draw length or us an inefficient bow you should be looking at arrow of at LEAST 400 grns.

Paul

RE: How are youth hunters?
 

I'm gonna call bull (literally:D) on the ridiculously heavy arrows. Heavier arrows will help, but there's no free lunch. Trajectory needs some consideration as well. If I were to go on an elk hunt, I would choose Axis/FMJ's arrows and heavy duty cut on contact broadhead like a Muzzy Phantom without the bleeders. My 25" Axis obssession arrows and 100gr. Silverflames weigh a total 360 grains. That's a touch over 7 grains per pound.

RE: How are youth hunters?
 

Please don't take offense, but my 50lb bow generates about the same KE as your setup does at 70. Certainly the equipment makes a difference.

RE: How are youth hunters?
 

Doegirl75 none taken. I know that there are more effiecant setups out there but I shoot well with it and just can't affored the more expensive setups.

Bigcountry I tried some arrows that were between 500 and 600g. My buddies hade some of there old arrows that they let cut, which I had to leave a little long in order to get the weight. I may as well just hand through them. It is impossible to get much from that heavy an arrow.

RE: How are youth hunters?
 

My first 'real' bow kill - excluding rabbits, squirrels and assorted other small game and varmints - was a large feral hog. Don't know the weight of the beast because in the early 60's we didn't generally gage our success by which numbers showed up on the scales or the tape. All I know for certain is my grampa had to bring the tractor to drag it back to the barn.

I shot that pig with a 45 lb solid fiberglass Bear recurve, cedar arrow with a Pearson Deadhead broadhead. There is no way that bow would've generated more than 30 ft lbs of KE, it certainly didn't shoot over 150 fps -probably didn't even do that much - and the cedar arrow had to weigh closer to 600 grains than to 500.

All in all, that heavy arrow darn sure worked a lot better than if I'd hand thrown it. The difference was I was constantly practicing on sneaking up on animals. I watched cats hunting birds in the yard and mimicked them. I learned how to HUNT, not just shoot. I got close to my game before I shot.

Isn't it something that a 12-year old kid could be a successful hunter with equipment that most folks these days think is far too underpowered, far too slow... and far beyond their own capabilities?

RE: How are youth hunters?
 

Those really heavy 500-600 grain arrows do not give you much more KE (only 5% more on average). Shoot what you want, buta heavy arrow is overrated if you do the calculations. Not too heavy, not too light will serve you best.

RE: How are youth hunters?
 

Ok, I know that animals have been taken with wood arrows for centuries. But don't start with the hunting skills i've hunted for many years here in the state of New Mexico with a traditional muzzle loader, not easy. My deal is I need more of a challange because of my skills of stocking. We don't havedeer running around like rodents or locked up in some stupid ranch where the animals are tended like cattle. No here for me it's all public land and 100% wild fare chase. I have been shooting my Browning for about2 years just never put in for a bow hunt until now.Icame acrossa KE chart and asked the question

RE: How are youth hunters?
 

My post was directed mostly at Doegirl and her calling bull on heavy arrows, but if you want to get personal about it there, newbie, so be it. I don't have the money to get onto on of those nice ranches with the deer running around like rodents and penned up like you're talking about. All my hunting, all my life has been 100% fair chase, nimrod, and I really don't appreciate your insinuation. Just because someone lives in Texas doesn't mean he hunts behind hi-fence and over feeders, so you can blow that BS out yer piehole.

I'd also tell you if you don't want to hear the answer, then don't ask the question. Light arrows are good for speed and you don't gain much of nothing with heavier arrows in terms of KE. What you DO gain with increased arrow weight is momentum and penetration potential.

If you really have spent time hunting with traditional muzzleloaders, you know you can do the job without all the KE that modern cartridge rifle hunters feel is necessary. You probably wonder who the hell decided to take it on themselves to make up such silly rules. Same with bowhunting. If anyone needs to call BULL on anything, it's those stupid KE charts. Bowhunting has gotten beset with the same magnum-itis that's been plaguing firearms hunters for years.

People are shooting bows for deer and elk now that are putting out more KE than bowhunters of years past used for hunting ELEPHANTS! And it's all because of those ultra-light arrows they're using. They've GOT to generate a lot of KE and speed for them to work. If you don't have a rig that can give it that much boost, then you should go heavier on arrow weight, and get close enough that the trajectory isn't a problem. I would go further and say you've got to go heavier on arrow weight but, like you said, I don't want to get into that KE/momentum BS all over again.

If you want to hear the real answer, then read LKNCHOPPERS' post again. Not too heavy, not too light. At 323 grains, in my opinion, you're way too light for elk with your bow.

Just so you'll know, I've put you on my ignore list. That way I won't see any more of your questions and won't ever burden you with any more of my advice. Have fun.

RE: How are youth hunters?
 

All of you who think there is nothing to gain by shooting a heavier arrow need to tell that to a little bowhunter named Chuck Adams. He took all 28 species of North American big game with a heavy aluminum arrow appropriately dubbed the "Super Slam". Fast has it's benefits as does mass, it is up to the archer to decide what kind of a blend of the two best suits his/her needs. I am with Bigcountry, I have blown through three adult, Illinois deer, with a 52# recurve shooting a 575 gr. arrow. Heavier arrow=quieter at the shot, better arrow flight, and devestating when used with a super sharp cut on contact head. Assuming the arrow was placed where in needed to go in the animal being hunted.

RE: How are youth hunters?
 

You have site pins don't ya? Are you planning on shooting over 30 yards? Why does trajectory need consideration?

Itsyour guys business, but I wouldn't go elk hunting with anything less than450gr out of my compound at 70lbs, and 600gr out of my recurve.

RE: How are youth hunters?
 

Ke doesn't really mean much, momentum is the much more important factor when considering penetration. And heavier arrows have more momentum, period.

Doegirl, your shooting a bowtech at 50 lbs with probably 25-26 inches of draw. That is a fairly efficient set up, I still think your arrows are a tad light but they work as you know. Moving to 400-450 grn arrows would give you just that much more umph when the arrow strikes the target and at 20 yards it wouldn't do much to your trajectory at all. I shoot a similar set as you and I have played with the different weights. I shoot 450 grn aluminum arrows. And my bow is actually a tad more efficient that yours I think. With those arrows I get around 200 fps and I have no trouble hitting targets out to 60 yards as long as I know the distance.

As far as yours being more efficient that others here? Most on here shoot bowtechs as well, but big boy bowtechs with more speed and and higher draw weights and longer draw lengths. Your set up is probably border line with someone shooting a heavy recurve, like say 70 lbs or so. And most of them would be shooting 500 grn arrows because they know they work better with that set up.

It's not bull, a heavier arrow with more FOC is ALWAYS better, you just sacrifice trajectory is all. And if your a youth archer you shouldn't be shooting farther than 20 yards anyway. There is point of diminishing returns though and need to sort of play to find out what it is. Chances are for that kind of set up though you won't find an arrow that heavy to work with it anyway.

Paul

RE: How are youth hunters?
 

And I like 20% FOC. Lets hear the compounders gasp. I know I would have 5 years ago.

RE: How are youth hunters?
 

15% is minum for me now unless they are target arrows.

Paul

RE: How are youth hunters?
 

This thread is precisely why when I see the issue of arrow weight, it's best for me to shut my eyes, plug my ears and sing la-la-la.[&:]
Nowhere did I sayBuckless should use an arrow that weighs less than 5grains per pound for elk hunting (his current arrow). But suggesting to someone already handicapped by a low energy setup that should also shoot arrows that weigh 10-11gpp's is truly nuts. There's no need for that. And even on an animal as big as an elk, trajectory is still important.

RE: How are youth hunters?
 

Well, fair enough, but you have to tell us why you think its so important? I am not attacking you by any means, but don't understand when I hear the younger hunters talk about trajectory and these light arrows. I have bowhunted almost 22 years and I bet my bear whitetail twohad less performance than your setup. Difference was we shot 500-600 grain arrows back then. I can't say I have ever been handicapped with these setups.

RE: How are youth hunters?
 

Right on Bigcountry!! You and Arthur both are right on and a few people on this thread need to open there ears and expand there learning and hearing skills. Its that simple folks!!

RE: How are youth hunters?
 

Bigcountry, no one's attacking me personally. Just healthy debate. If I couldn't roll with the punches, I wouldn't have stepped into the ring.;)
Reason for me being so caught upin trajectory, accurate shot placement. It's as simple as that.

RE: How are youth hunters?
 

Actually it's not nuts doegirl, the heavier arrow will actually perform better than the lighter one on a low powered set up. This is exactly where you would want to be shooting a heavier arrow, not a lighter one. Yes you will lose trajectory, but it can be compensated for. That is where the SKILL part of archery comes in. If you play enough with low powered set ups using light and heavy arrows you will see the heavy arrow has more energy, momentum and penetration at hunting distances. It's not an opinion, it's a fact.

You can argue it all you like and feel however you want to about it. However the people with more experience simply aren't going to buy it because they know better. Light arrows are not new, they have been around for quite a while. The reason they were not popular is because the bows of the time simply didn't have the power to make them useful. People tried them and found out the performance on game was not as good as a heavier arrow, so they switched back. This is also why you have seen a trend in the past 5 years or so for carbon arrows to offer heavier models. Now if you have a normal draw length with the capability to pull 60 or 70 lbs of draw weight the bows produce enough energy and velocity that you could use just about any arrow you want if you make a good shot. That being said I wouldn't suggest it for a youth hunter, or a smaller archer that can't get that much power out of a set up. Even if you are shooting a fancy bowtech.

Paul

RE: How are youth hunters?
 

Ok I do apologize to you Arthur, however, you touch a spot with me when you mentioned that you learned to hunt and not just shot. When I ask this dumb question I was not putting hunting skills into the equation. I assumed that most people here already have some kind of hunting skills or I would not have joined this site.

RE: How are youth hunters?
 

There is simply no need for ultra heavy arrows, even with my setup or less powerful ones. All this ho-ha over arrow weight ignores more important aspects, IMO, like proper broadhead selection and the ability to tune your bow. In fact, I'll argue till the cows come home that poor choices in broadheads will lose you more game than light arrows ever will. I laugh when people suggest to me I should use a 400-500grain arrow.When the time comes I need to use 3 pins just to get out to 25 yds,that will be the moment I buy a recurve. Then I'll actually have a real reason to use such heavy projectiles.

RE: How are youth hunters?
 

Well, maybe I am underestimating you. I will admit this. Have you taken dozens of large deer/elk/boar with a bow? If yes, then I humbly appoligize for my suggestions as the proof is in the pudding.

RE: How are youth hunters?
 

My experience, or lack thereof, has no bearing in the arguement. But, unlike some internet cowboys, I've got no problems disclosing actual numbers-6 whitetails w/ a bow. That's it. Not the 70 something some claim. But again, still does not negate the fact that I don't quite need 10gpp inch arrows to chase to anything bigger than a whitetail.
I'll be sure to let all know how my 298 grain lightspeeds do on Russian boars this summer[8D]

RE: How are youth hunters?
 

Totally agree on this statement. But not sure where the "I laugh when people suggest to me I should use a 400-500grain arrow" comes from

Won't be a problem as long as they are quartering away from you. Let us know how it goes.

RE: How are youth hunters?
 

Thanks, Bigcountry, I will.:)
I can see your point with the "I laugh when" statement as being disrespectful. I just got mybritches in a bind-this arrow weight issue sure does get people emotional.
And let it be known that I respect your opinion and others on this board. Even with a viewpoint I strongly disagree with, it's never my intention to demean anyone.

RE: How are youth hunters?
 

No problem doe, I respect you too. I have even sent a few women bowhunters your way when they asked advise. Holy cow your shooting silverflames. Beautiful heads, just would be scared to loose one.:D I have settled on muzzy 200gr phatoms.

RE: How are youth hunters?
 

I agree everything needs to be taken into consideration. Along with a good weight arrow you certainly should be shooting a broad head meant for what you are doing and they should fly straight. I just sort of figured that as a given. I never said you couldn't kill game with a lighter arrow, I am merely suggesting that a heavier arrow would perform better. If you ever shoot a deer and don't get a pass through and have a tough tracking job chances are the heavier arrow probably would have accomplished that for you, providing you had proper shot placement.

Most don't consider 400 to 500 grn arrows heavy either.

My bow shoots a tad over 200 fps with 450 grn arrows and I don't need more than one pin out to 25 yards which is all the farther I care to shoot at deer. Oh, and my bow has an IBO spec of 324 fps (bowtech mighty might) so it's plenty efficient, I'm just little is all. I used to shoot a bow that was less efficient with arrows around 350-360 grns. It worked, but once I upped my arrow weight I noticed better performance on game at hunting distances. And the better bow just makes it all that much better.

I personally have no desire to shoot over 250 fps. If had a more efficient bow, or longer arms;) that would let me shoot 280-300 fps I would most likely up my arrow weight until my speed came down to around 245-250 fps.

If you want to disagree with decades of experience and testing feel free, you are welcome to believe what you want. However like I said before, to those of us that know better you won't change our minds. Just because you don't think you need a heavier don't try and make us believe it wouldn't work better because we know it will.

A really simple example of this is my kids little plastic recurve bow. If you use really light youth arrows it won't stick in my back target more than half the time. If I grab some of my heavier aluminum arrows (400 grns) it will consistently stick in the bag. The light arrow might get there a bit faster, but the heavy arrows retain more energy and momentum to the target letting them work better. Both have the same energy out of the bow, the heavier ones just retain that energy better.

Paul

RE: How are youth hunters?
 

Very well said Paul!!

RE: How are youth hunters?
 

Ok, this has turned out to be a good and emotional thread. I apoligize if I offended anyone. I have almost a decade of elk/deer hunting with bow, and I am still learning new thing each day/year. So, I would like to hear from all the more experience folks what should I give and what should I take out. I am going to use me as example so no one will be offended. Here's my setup:

Bow: Equalizer
DL: 25"
DW: 60#
Arrow weight: 360 grn
Speed: ~250 fps

KE = ~50 ft-lb
Momentum = 0.4 lb-s

Compare this to a 450 grn and 200 fps:

KE = 40 ft-lb
Momentum = 0.4 lb-s

In this case, which arrow/speed is better? Shall we say they're the same theoretically? Which would you choose and why?

RE: How are youth hunters?
 

Is this with the same bow? Because there is no way you are going to up your weight that much and keep the same momentum and lose 10 ft/lbs of KE, if anything it will go up slightly.

Me personally having nearly the same set up, except I have a mighty might with 26 inches of draw I would and do use the heavier arrows.
Paul